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sebmojo posted:I know/see all, from within my Omniscitron. But can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
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Jan 29, 2018 00:54
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Stuporstar posted:Or watching the world pass by in The Time Machine jesus dude, chill out.
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Jan 29, 2018 01:14
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HIJK posted:jesus dude, chill out. Why do you assume I'm not chill? I was trying to tone it down to give good advice. Do I need to change my avatar to not seem bitchy all the time or something?
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Jan 29, 2018 01:55
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Stuporstar posted:Why do you assume I'm not chill? I was trying to tone it down to give good advice. I have no idea who your avatar is but when you say this: Stuporstar posted:And he could read all those and go, "Nope, nope, not what I was thinking..." and if he were smart would come to realize his story is never going to be so like something already written that he needs to stress about it. It is distinctly unchill when you insult the intelligence of someone with an innocent question. It isn't unreasonable for a newbie or a veteran to wonder about the creation of original ideas but it's so needlessly cruel to imply someone isn't smart just because they didn't come to this conclusion on their own. Considering how much variation there can be on even just one idea, it makes sense that someone might want to investigate how far that rabbit hole goes. I don't know the guy's history maybe he has a habit of doing this exact same thing over and over and over but this is the writing thread. People ask questions about writing.
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Jan 29, 2018 02:03
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Stuporstar posted:Why do you assume I'm not chill? I was trying to tone it down to give good advice. Resting bitch poster. I didn't read your post as flipping out on him, and look forward to emptyquoting the next time this comes up lol Edit: vgvvtvttgvvvttgdvtgvgv Come back to Thunderdome Also why did my iPad autocorrect vvvvvv time vgvvtvttgvvvttgdvtgvgv lol Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jan 29, 2018 |
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Jan 29, 2018 02:05
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HIJK posted:I have no idea who your avatar is but when you say this: I meant what he needs to do to be smart, but yeah the italics made a nasty implication that he isn't and for that I apologise. I keep forgetting this isn't the Thunderdome and I'm no longer even in the Thunderdome Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Resting bitch poster. lol I should've kept the Tina Turner av. It seemed to play better with my aggressive tone
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Jan 29, 2018 02:12
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if you're posting in this thread you're not writing the thing also lmao at troll ideas guy accusing someone of a meltdown within like 5 bullshit posts
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Jan 29, 2018 03:02
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Stuporstar posted:I meant what he needs to do to be smart, but yeah the italics made a nasty implication that he isn't and for that I apologise. I keep forgetting this isn't the Thunderdome and I'm no longer even in the Thunderdome Tbh that's why I don't join thunderdome, I don't want to screamed at and insulted over a badly written short story. Sitting Here posted:if you're posting in this thread you're not writing the thing the whole point of being a writer is finding excuses not to write. we do other things like putting together ipod playlists
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Jan 29, 2018 04:43
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tbh you'd be lucky if you got screamed at and insulted these days #wheresthekayfabe
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Jan 29, 2018 04:53
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HIJK posted:Tbh that's why I don't join thunderdome, I don't want to screamed at and insulted over a badly written short story. that exactly why you need to join then. get yelled at so much that it starts to roll off and you don't fear it anymore... you crave it. mean feedback is the only honest feedback.
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Jan 29, 2018 07:04
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Nah. I love Thunderdome, hence doing it for like 5 goddamned years now, but it's not the only way to get helpful feedback. If people don't like the heat, they should stay out of the kitchen, and go to some other kitchen like a restaurant or something, this is a bad metaphor. But really, Thunderdome isn't for everyone and it doesn't need to be for everyone, and if you don't like jokingly yelling and getting yelled at, don't enter Thunderdome. edit: and if you do enter Thunderdome, don't complain about getting yelled at, that's the whole point >:-[
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Jan 29, 2018 07:12
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HIJK posted:Tbh that's why I don't join thunderdome, I don't want to screamed at and insulted over a badly written short story. Try writing a good one then jk all stories are bad
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Jan 29, 2018 09:13
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crabrock posted:that exactly why you need to join then. get yelled at so much that it starts to roll off and you don't fear it anymore... you crave it. mean feedback is the only honest feedback. I've been in a few writing groups now that have given me really great, pointed feedback that I've been able to use to improve my writing. Somehow, this feedback hasn't been mean. I don't know who told you that honesty has to be synonymous with meanness, but it's absolutely untrue.
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Jan 29, 2018 15:58
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Naerasa posted:I've been in a few writing groups now that have given me really great, pointed feedback that I've been able to use to improve my writing. Somehow, this feedback hasn't been mean. I don't know who told you that honesty has to be synonymous with meanness, but it's absolutely untrue. This is the internet, it’s the only way we know how to interact.
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Jan 29, 2018 16:56
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I like peaches.
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Jan 29, 2018 18:00
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Naerasa posted:I've been in a few writing groups now that have given me really great, pointed feedback that I've been able to use to improve my writing. Somehow, this feedback hasn't been mean. I don't know who told you that honesty has to be synonymous with meanness, but it's absolutely untrue. they hit me because they love me?
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Jan 29, 2018 19:01
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There is actually a pretty solid community for critique and novel support that sprang up from TD. Most critiquers aren't mean, they're just not worried about whether they hurt your feelings or not. Just like publishers don't care when they reject your heart-felt magnum opus. And while I won't claim thunderdome is responsible for anyone's achievements in publishing (well, except for the times people get published as a result of "rushes" we do occasionally), you will certainly be way more prepared for rejection. idk, every time the whole "TD is too mean" conversation comes up, I get confused because I am like a squishy goopy emotional melted marshmallow of a human being, and being around true meanness gives me like an anxiety attack. And yet I've been around for more than 5 years, too. Crabrock is terrible though, so you should do what we do and ignore him.
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Jan 29, 2018 20:11
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omg u dolts that last line was a joke gosh dang get a life morans i tell people i like they stuff all the time
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Jan 29, 2018 21:50
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Sitting Here posted:Just like publishers don't care when they reject your heart-felt magnum opus. Actually, almost all the non-form rejections I've gotten from agents/publishers have been both kind and helpful. Some of them were even sweet. The only really rude ones were rude for reasons unrelated to critique. For the record, I'm not saying TD is bad, I'm just saying that its knife-edged criticisms aren't necessarily the norm.
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Jan 30, 2018 00:27
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Naerasa posted:Actually, almost all the non-form rejections I've gotten from agents/publishers have been both kind and helpful. Some of them were even sweet. The only really rude ones were rude for reasons unrelated to critique. i think the value of it is that if you can deal with TD's critiques then a journal/agent rejecting your story/manuscript by saying "sorry, but this isnt the place for us" (which is the worst response you're going to get) is going to be a lot easier.
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Jan 30, 2018 01:42
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Get savaged by TD judges until, “Thanks for giving us the chance to read X but we’re afraid it’s not right for us,” rolls off you like 
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Jan 30, 2018 02:20
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So I've been grappling with a (probably stupid) problem for a while. That is what is a good way to write "thoughts" in first person perspective? First person feels like it's almost all thoughts, one characters internal monologue so to speak, so how do I differentiate between the ongoing monologue and specific thoughts? Typing it out like this I feel like maybe I actually shouldn't even bother making that sort of distinction - is it only for a third person perspective? But I feel like there are moments when it's good to have a character's stream of conscious thoughts to punctuate something dramatic happening. I dunno if I'm explaining what I'm asking right so, for example the most recent time I hit this stumbling block was with this sentence: quote:Today's work wasn't particularly messy. Thinking as much I decide I don't need to bother sweeping the dirt floor. Which, reading it out of context, feels like maybe the italic "thought" text is unnecessary - but I feel like so much of the monologue is dedicated to descriptions of rooms, buildings, people, and of course what's happening... character thoughts are hard to weave in naturally. Maybe that's just a lack of skill on my part?
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Jan 30, 2018 10:36
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It's been a long time since I've thought about this thread. I'll make a note to try and re-read part of it when I find the time. I started by reading all the tip posts in the OP(s), but it's the ones on story structure/character arc which are giving me trouble. My question is when is it the right time to see if your story fits into the generally-used story structure? When is it the right time to make sure your characters have arcs and that they fit into the story at the right points? Because stories don't come out fully formed instantly. They're built one idea at a time, and not always in order. Last week I actually had an idea which developed from nothing to fairly developed in the span of 24-48 hours. I know who my protagonists are, I know what their dilemma is, I know what the villain is (both the obvious villain and the real one are), their motivations, I have some of the important plot beats and twists, I know the note I want to leave my story on... but how do I know which of those big generic boxes of Story Structure the individual moments specific to my story fit into? sunken fleet posted:So I've been grappling with a (probably stupid) problem for a while. That is what is a good way to write "thoughts" in first person perspective? First person feels like it's almost all thoughts, one characters internal monologue so to speak, so how do I differentiate between the ongoing monologue and specific thoughts? Typing it out like this I feel like maybe I actually shouldn't even bother making that sort of distinction - is it only for a third person perspective? Interesting question. I think in first-person, I would have no distinction between specific thoughts and the monologue (unless telepathy is a thing in the story). I'm actually doing a story from the first-person and I have a little stream of consciousness in the middle of action bit as well. I am not sure how well it works, so I'd be interested in hearing feedback on that as well. quote:I was already in a tremendously foul mood when the arrow pierced my horrible pointy hat and pinned it to the high-backed chair. Again, I'm not sure how well that works, so advice is welcome, but I think it does give a pretty strong voice to the character right away. sunken fleet posted:I dunno if I'm explaining what I'm asking right so, for example the most recent time I hit this stumbling block was with this sentence: Both sentences are from the same perspective. I don't think the italics are necessary. I'd remove the italics. The "Thinking as much I decide" part is also unnecessary, I would delete those words. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jan 30, 2018 |
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Jan 30, 2018 16:41
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The benefit of first-person writing is that everything is told from the narrator's perspective. Everything is already words in the narrator's mouth, so you don't have to establish that a thought presented on the page is something the narrator thought. Because the reader knows that everything is coming from your narrator, you don't have to say that he's thinking something, or even that he decides something:quote:Today's work wasn't particularly messy, so I don't bother sweeping the dirt floor. Even in third person perspective, you can use thoughts from a character's internal monologue. I've read plenty of stories that will have the viewpoint character's thoughts pop up in the third-person narration.
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Jan 30, 2018 16:49
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quote:I was already in a tremendously foul mood when the arrow pierced my horrible pointy hat and pinned it to the high-backed chair. The wordiness is tripping up your tone here. "horrible pointy hat" and "high-backed chair" each have about one adjective too many. "I said that as I was reflexively hurling myself to the floor..." is both awkward and uses the progressive tense (was hurling) when the regular past tense (hurled) would be more immediate. "Planks" didn't read as the floor to me at first, I just imagined her there with some excess lumber or something. Are there high-class peasants? If not, "low-class peasant" is redundant. The line about the mother's illness is so meandering it took me four tries to actually get what it was saying (she faced death with dignity). "Panicked screaming" is redundant and you've got a lot of adjectives there too ("panicked screaming", "trampling boots", "rough shouting", "brief distraction".)
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Jan 30, 2018 17:04
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Wordiness is a problem of mine, I'll try and work on that. I'll also remind myself about keeping a closer eye on how I use adjectives. - Good catch with "horrible" - that does not convey useful information about why she hates the hat, making it useless. - High-backed is one word, so it can't be one adjective too many. I'm trying to give the reader a sense of a chair which has a substantially taller back than what they would normally think of when they hear the word "chair". The purpose of the description is to help them get a sense of how the arrow is pinning the hat. - I would have thought that "hurled myself to the floor" would have made the context of "planks" clear enough. I'll see if there's a way I can revise it. - The lines about the mother's illness were one of my concern areas, I'll revise them. - I've also replaced "blah" and the extended "sooooo" for being too anachronistic. Quite helpful, thank you.
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Jan 30, 2018 17:56
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I'm also prone to wordiness, and a good rule of thumb I picked up somewhere is to cut adjectives just about everywhere, unless they modify something in a way that isn't obvious. So like above, "panicked screaming" doesn't add much, because you'd expect through context that the screaming wouldn't be calm. But it's totally valid to say "melodic screaming" as that has a whole different feel and runs counter to most reader's expectations.
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Jan 30, 2018 18:31
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MockingQuantum posted:I'm also prone to wordiness, and a good rule of thumb I picked up somewhere is to cut adjectives just about everywhere, unless they modify something in a way that isn't obvious. So like above, "panicked screaming" doesn't add much, because you'd expect through context that the screaming wouldn't be calm. But it's totally valid to say "melodic screaming" as that has a whole different feel and runs counter to most reader's expectations. Adverbs ditto, but more so.
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Jan 30, 2018 18:37
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Djeser posted:The benefit of first-person writing is that everything is told from the narrator's perspective. Everything is already words in the narrator's mouth, so you don't have to establish that a thought presented on the page is something the narrator thought. Because the reader knows that everything is coming from your narrator, you don't have to say that he's thinking something, or even that he decides something:
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Jan 30, 2018 18:57
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sunken fleet posted:So I've been grappling with a (probably stupid) problem for a while. That is what is a good way to write "thoughts" in first person perspective? I just read about this in Steering the Craft of Story the other day: Ursula K. Leguin posted:Many writers worry about how to present characters’ unspoken thoughts. Editors are likely to put thoughts into italics if you don’t stop them. Thoughts are handled exactly like dialogue, if you present them directly: Now that's in third person, and a lot of lit fic I've read doesn't even bother to flag thoughts as thoughts if it's a tight third person limited. First person is even easier because you never need make any distinction at all. Go ahead and cut right into the narrative with your character's thoughts—that's what a good first person should be doing often anyway.
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Jan 30, 2018 19:04
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Stuporstar posted:I just read about this in Steering the Craft of Story the other day: To add to this, when you're writing in first person, also keep an eye out for redundant descriptors like "I saw", "I heard", "I felt", which add distance between the reader and the text and don't add anything (because in first person, everything is already "I...").
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Jan 30, 2018 19:30
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:To add to this, when you're writing in first person, also keep an eye out for redundant descriptors like "I saw", "I heard", "I felt", which add distance between the reader and the text and don't add anything (because in first person, everything is already "I..."). In first person I will sometimes use the phrase "I thought at the time" when the character is trying to justify past behavior on limited knowledge. Also, "I didn't hear" "I didn't see" etc. for similar reasons. I once even did this: quote:Hugh Bastard didn’t call, since I was already conveniently face-up, but I caught the motion in my periphery. I swear I heard the snap of its wings over the spray, but my mind may have edited that in. In an instant I knew what was coming. I rolled. One of my beta readers said they liked that touch, but maybe the fact they noticed at all it isn't the best thing. I dunno. My protagonist questions his senses frequently, for plot-critical reasons. I could also be breaking the no "I feel" rule in the second paragraph, but it's not a thing someone's supposed to be able to feel, more a hyperbolic turn of phrase—a cliche one maybe, but it's not a redundancy. "In an instant" could probably go too. When I go to edit I'll have to read both out loud to figure out which construction has better rhythm, which is more important than cutting everything in your draft to the bone. A lot is allowable in first person if it fits the character's voice, but it has to be a voice clear enough for people to want to read. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jan 30, 2018 |
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Jan 30, 2018 20:54
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the thing about doing stuff like that is, what's the point? I get really annoyed when i'm reading something and it's presented in the negative or it just didn't happen, such as "My eye almost twitched." it's just like oh cool, poo poo that didn't happen. tell me what else didn't happen. did you also not see any dogs? did your heart almost skip a beat? you're saying there that he thought he heard something...but he didn't. Ok? is thinking he hears flapping wings really that interesting? It's not to me. If you focused more on the "spray" (whatever that is), which is the ACTUAL SOUND that's being heard, it'd make for a stronger, more visceral scene imo.
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Jan 30, 2018 21:32
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crabrock posted:the thing about doing stuff like that is, what's the point? I get really annoyed when i'm reading something and it's presented in the negative or it just didn't happen, such as "My eye almost twitched." it's just like oh cool, poo poo that didn't happen. tell me what else didn't happen. did you also not see any dogs? did your heart almost skip a beat? you're saying there that he thought he heard something...but he didn't. Ok? is thinking he hears flapping wings really that interesting? It's not to me. If you focused more on the "spray" (whatever that is), which is the ACTUAL SOUND that's being heard, it'd make for a stronger, more visceral scene imo. The spray is from the fountain he's sitting by, which is context I didn't include in my post but is set in the story. I get your point, which is why I need to justify it as crucial to the story, otherwise it has to go. Is it crucial he exaggerate the bird's flight as being more violent than it probably was, and admit he might be exaggerating? Do I do it enough to be annoying, or do these incidents subtley add up to him being completely unable to trust his mind near the end of the story? That's the kind of decision I have to leave until more beta readers have read it in context. If they call me out on it again and again, then yeah I'm probably loving it up and need to tone it down. As to your hypotheticals, you wouldn't state the character didn't see any dogs unless he didn't see the dog that ripped his arm off, in which case not seeing it beforehand might be important. Maybe you wouldn't mention it before the dog rips his arm off, because that would telegraph it too hard, but have that be part of the character reeling from the blow—I didn't see it coming, WTF. Your other examples, eye almost twitching, heart almost skipping a beat, are definitely lame poo poo someone would diserve to be slapped for. For one, those tics happen instantaneously and uncontrollably—they never "almost" happen, so it's the writer trying to be cute. "I didn't slap the fucker" is an entirely different beast, worth stating.
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Jan 30, 2018 21:55
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:- High-backed is one word, so it can't be one adjective too many. I'm trying to give the reader a sense of a chair which has a substantially taller back than what they would normally think of when they hear the word "chair". The purpose of the description is to help them get a sense of how the arrow is pinning the hat. One adjective can be one too many, especially when every other noun in the sentence is preceded by an adjective. The context of 'planks' is clear, but the word itself is strange because I don't often think of floor as planks unless I'm engaging in construction or trying to reveal the Telltale Heart or something.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:03
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Stuporstar posted:The spray is from the fountain he's sitting by, which is context I didn't include in my post but is set in the story. yeah it depends a lot on context, i was just making a general point about when people try to get into somebody's head. i love writing first person cause you can say all sorts of weird poo poo and it's your character's fault 
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Jan 30, 2018 23:26
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crabrock posted:yeah it depends a lot on context, i was just making a general point about when people try to get into somebody's head. i love writing first person cause you can say all sorts of weird poo poo and it's your character's fault Yeah, I didn't mention how important context is in my first post, in terms of using "didn't see" or "didn't do" type constructions, and your examples were great cautions against doing it badly. Some general rules I've come up with since could be: 1. If a character fails to notice something, that anti-detail can be important, if that something blindsides them. 2. If a character doesn't do something, that can be an action in itself, so long as the character is holding themselves back from doing it. 3. If a character thought they saw/heard/etc. something, but it turns out they're wrong, that can be a useful misdirecton—but tread carefully with this one. 4. If you're using sensory verbs in unusual ways, and not redundantly, that can sometimes excuse them. Edit: I just realized I included another one in that passage, when the bird "didn't call," which also has context I left out, because my character explains that's a thing the parrot usually did to get people to look up so it could poo poo on their faces. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 00:19
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I've read/skimmed this whole thread and there's lots of great advice and links to advice, which has helped me a bit. If I find myself unenthusiastic about writing a scene, if I'm not really interested in writing it, that probably means I should take a careful look and see if the scene itself is really necessary. One simple concept that it was helpful to be reminded of was that character arc and story arc should be connected. This isn't a big revelation. Almost every episodic TV show with an A-plot and a B-plot are connected by a common theme. That's not an accident. But it can also work in your favor. A story idea I had was a "Groundhog Day Loop" on a starship, but it was just really a plot, I didn't really have a character arc, my protagonist lacked character. I added a murder mystery subplot to complicate the protagonist's life - he's framed for the murder of his supervisor. (That happens before the loop starts, so the protagonist has to hide the body and evidence every day.) To set that up, I added a conflict between the protagonist and supervisor. Stuff like he shows up just one minute before his shift starts, his boss tells him that even though he's technically on time, he should be there earlier. I noticed that I was writing friends of the protagonist telling him stuff like "hey, you should take this job more seriously, it's not enough to be smart, attitude counts come promotion time." From there I figured out that my character arc for my protagonist is that he should be smart, but pretty egotistical. The key was a (pre-loop) line which essentially says "Give me enough time and I could fix all this myself." That right there ties the character and plot arc together because for the ending I already decide that unusually for the trope, he CAN'T fix everything himself, there is no perfect scenario. No matter how many times he loops, he's just one person and can't do it all on his own. If you only know where your plot arc is leading, use that to think about what your character arc should be (or vice versa). *** The discussion on flashbacks/prologues from page 11 might have helped me with a serious thorny problem as well. There was one story I was struggling with. I tried to start it as close to the action as possible, but there was key plot stuff which happened during a couple of events five years earlier, stuff which tied directly into the relationship of one of my protagonists with the antagonist. I decided to shift the start of the story back and start with the five years earlier bit, then skip ahead five years once the life-changing moments have happened. That lead me to another issue. I was showing the two protagonists characters living a certain way five years ago, and because of (separate) life-changing events then, they were both radically different in the present day. I wasn't showing that change, they just did. From the perspective of the reader, they gained skills, knowledge, and had a different attitude virtually overnight, and I was showing none of the change or even how they started down that path. Whoops! If, however, I did spend the time to show them starting down the path of change, I would be adding a substantial amount of time showing each of them separately, and I actually wanted the focus of the book to be on the relationship between the two protagonists. It would be far too great a delay between when the story starts and when they team up. I shelved the story for a while, until I read page 11 of this thread. It seems to me that the only real way forward would be to start just before the two main characters meet, and reveal the important plot events in pieces as the story progresses. Also about that same story, I also was struggling with the story-structure idea that the hero needs to sacrifice something. My problem was that the protagonist had already lost pretty much everything - parents, friends, status/identity, money, even the freedom to just settle in one place where they couldn't be hunted. All he still had, all he was holding on to was his quest - which was his need to learn the secret which his parents and friends were killed to protect. It only hit me recently, that it was obvious - that was what he needed to sacrifice. He had to be presented with the choice of finding out the reason why, but that would cost him dearly if he accepted. Your characters always have something to lose. Find out what it is and turn it into the weak point which gets exploited. There's an six-month old post in this thread which never got answered, but I think I have an answer for it. Omi no Kami posted:I find that I have a consistent structural problem where I write out a complete story- I have very little trouble coming up with interesting ideas, but my capacity to actually picture the scene and start writing out prose inevitably begins at the 50-60 page mark, when the entire cast has been brought together, the stakes/situation has been established, and all that's left is to actually iterate through the main story arc; it'd be liking starting It with all the kids assembled, and the concept of a killer clown already having been introduced. To me this seems like an odd problem. You should know who your protagonist is, your main character. Who are they, what are they doing there? One exercise which might help work through a problem like this is that at this point, imagine that a powerful authority figure bursts onto the scene, and insists that the characters explain what is going on. Maybe it's the cops, maybe it's sufficiently advanced aliens, maybe it's a god or gods descending. Whichever it is, they've put all your characters in a box, and they aren't going to leave until they tell the authority how this whole thing started and how they got there. Write the response to that in character for your protagonist and however many other characters you wish. Even go backwards if you want, starting with now, what happened just before? What happened just before that? When you reach the point where your protagonist's answer is "I was living a normal life", that's where your story starts. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 22:07
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How in the gently caress do I do character descriptions my head hurts
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Feb 2, 2018 00:15
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Sociopastry posted:How in the gently caress do I do character descriptions less is more, imo
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Feb 2, 2018 00:27
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