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Waffles Inc. posted:Granted I've only played DS3 so I can't speak to what Demon Souls is like, but my first impression of DS3 after having played tons of Monster Hunter games is, "hmm wow some dev played a lot of Monster Hunter" I have not played a Monster Hunter game yet, so I can't really comment on the similarities (I haven't played DS3, but I played through DS1, and part of DS2 Scholar). From the little I've seen of MH, I can see how Souls might've drawn some inspiration from it. However, it would be better to confirm that's the case, and if so, that might make a better lead-in or subject for an article. It's really just that Dark Souls has become an obnoxious shorthand for describing games, and half the time, it doesn't even make sense. At least comparing MH to Dark Souls makes a little more sense than comparing it to Crash Bandicoot or The Last of Us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B90frJAHoB8 - Around the 1:25 mark)
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Feb 1, 2018 00:12
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Monster Hunter was a fairly niche series outside Japan (less true now), so for a lot of Western gamers it's pretty natural to use the Souls series as a point of comparison.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:15
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Demon's Souls was a spiritual successor to the FromSoftware-developed King's Field games, the first of which was published on the Sony Playstation in 1994. It was, in fact, the first game FromSoft developed.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:22
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don't tell nobody but it's actually ok to use common cultural touchstones to describe a similar, more obscure, product, and MH and DS designs have very similar concepts based around timing and punishing poor play and forced conserving of resources as well as a focus on big cinematic boss fights that feel satisfying to master.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:31
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I won't lie, Monster Hunter having a photo mode would be all kinds of awesome. A deadlier version of Pokemon Snap.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:35
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The Dark Souls comparison is at least quite fair, even if it is certainly a cliched thing to say. I mean, it doesn't necessarily make it a good article because jeez, you really ought to think of more to say about the game other than "it's like Dark Souls" but it is fair. I just can't with the other take though. Games journalism is so depressingly poo poo these days. Seriously, it's like this crap just gets thrown into a randomizer or something. "Monster Hunter World reminds me of hunting endangered species", "Forza Horizon 3 reminds me of the Australian vote on same sex marriage"...take a game, pick an incredibly tangentially related issue to talk about, and you have an article! If these god-awful sites actually employed such things as editors, there'd be huge red scribbles on the copy denoting how 90% of the content of these articles was completely irrelevant, unjustifiable drivel. Seriously, how easy would it be to make a Game Journalist Hot Take article generator?
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Feb 1, 2018 00:41
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Kim Justice posted:Seriously, how easy would it be to make a Game Journalist Hot Take article generator? Very, but then it'd generate "Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of Dark Souls" after about ten minutes and you'd have to shut it down.
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Feb 1, 2018 01:16
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Nuebot posted:Very, but then it'd generate "Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of Dark Souls" after about ten minutes and you'd have to shut it down. Would this qualify as passing the Turing Test?
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Feb 1, 2018 01:31
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Game journos should stop having emotional responses to video games. That creates the worrying implication that they're art or something.
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Feb 1, 2018 01:35
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John Murdoch posted:Game journos should stop having emotional responses to video games. That creates the worrying implication that they're art or something. You really have to reach to get that from what anyone's saying. Have you thought about a career in games journalism? But seriously, that's not what anyone's saying. At all. And what's really damaging to the perception of games being art? This constant cycle of hot take after hot take giving the impression that any uncomfortable subjects shouldn't be touched on. I'm sure you could make a good article about hunting related to video games, and indeed Monster Hunter World could be a part of that. Anything from hunting's relationship to video games (which is kinda big and relevant to like, tons of games. Any RPG, for example), or the history of hunting simulations, or even something about the fecklessness with which, I dunno, Cabela's African Safari deals with the real-life impact of sport hunting on the wild. "Fantastical game where you hunt monsters reminds me of real-life sport hunting AND THIS IS BAD" is not a good take. Quite frankly, the main reason for that is because (going back to the relationship between hunting and video games) there are about a million games you could write this article about, and the end result is frankly a big reach for a baity hot take. EDIT: Like, take another Journo favourite - Shadow of the Colossus. You could probably copy + paste that game into the article. Hell, it would be even closer to the point - hunting is a massive part of the game. Every colossus killed represents the successful hunting, killing and harvesting of the resources of a unique creature that is amongst the very last of their race in a world almost devoid of all life except for them. You could write that article. But it would miss the entire point of the game by about a thousand miles. The interchangeable nature of these takes and blatant search for clickbait kills them as articles. Kim Justice fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 01:51
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stillvisions posted:Though his stuff sounds fishy, all I'm finding so far is for 5.51 "we tried and couldn't do it via TAS" which feels a bit flimsy. Still, the guy has a lot of records that are most easily explained by being able to hack a CRT output and taking a polaroid of it. I almost wonder if the limited architecture and short race time means you can almost exhaustively model the outcomes, though that would probably still need some serious computing power. Someone actually decompiled the game, wrote a model for it and determined that 5.57 is the best you could achieve without adjusting game parameters via glitches and the like.
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Feb 1, 2018 02:28
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Kim Justice posted:You really have to reach to get that from what anyone's saying. Have you thought about a career in games journalism? Every time somebody makes the most milquetoast political reading of a game and decides to talk about it online, people lose their loving minds over it. People are apparently quite scared at the notion of games being art because when they're treated like such everybody panics. The concept of hot takes "giving the impression that any uncomfortable subjects shouldn't be touched on" confuses me greatly. In the context of The Red Strings Club stuff, I'll agree that it was handled poorly. But saying "this element of Monster Hunter rubs me the wrong way" carries no further implication - it's a basic observational statement no more controversial than any other opinion. Kim Justice posted:I'm sure you could make a good article about hunting related to video games, and indeed Monster Hunter World could be a part of that. Anything from hunting's relationship to video games (which is kinda big and relevant to like, tons of games. Any RPG, for example), or the history of hunting simulations, or even something about the fecklessness with which, I dunno, Cabela's African Safari deals with the real-life impact of sport hunting on the wild. Why does there need to be some Official Designated Article About Hunting And Games And Politics instead of people being able to talk about their honest reactions to current big release Monster Hunter World: the game about hunting monsters? Kim Justice posted:"Fantastical game where you hunt monsters reminds me of real-life sport hunting AND THIS IS BAD" is not a good take. Quite frankly, the main reason for that is because (going back to the relationship between hunting and video games) there are about a million games you could write this article about, and the end result is frankly a big reach for a baity hot take. Thank you for proving that you either didn't read the Waypoint and Forbes articles at all or are masterfully projecting by removing all nuance and firing off a half-cocked spicy take of your own. Assigning ulterior motives to somebody's opinion is a fantastically lovely thing to do. Perhaps these writers make these ~hot takes~ because...they...actually...feel...that...way? I'm not naive enough to think that everything on the internet is written with 100% sincerity but immediately assuming they're out for attention over all else sounds like a terribly cynical and exhausting way to view the world. And how the gently caress is "a game about hunting monsters reminds me of uh, hunting, and that's slightly uncomfortable" some out of left field take? Especially since both articles couch their mild discomfort with the monster hunting in praise for how lavishly and realistically modeled the monsters are. Hence why emotional responses (and naturally bridging those responses with greater political contexts like some kind of gross subjective human) clearly must be verboten. Emotions are reserved for getting angry at game journos. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 02:56
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Kim Justice posted:I'm sure you could make a good article about hunting related to video games, and indeed Monster Hunter World could be a part of that. Anything from hunting's relationship to video games (which is kinda big and relevant to like, tons of games. Any RPG, for example), or the history of hunting simulations, or even something about the fecklessness with which, I dunno, Cabela's African Safari deals with the real-life impact of sport hunting on the wild. "Fantastical game where you hunt monsters reminds me of real-life sport hunting AND THIS IS BAD" is not a good take. Quite frankly, the main reason for that is because (going back to the relationship between hunting and video games) there are about a million games you could write this article about, and the end result is frankly a big reach for a baity hot take. Honestly, I don't think you could write an article about or involving Cabela's the same way you could Monster Hunter because Cabela's doesn't have the same weird conservationism and environmentalism running through it that Monster Hunter does. Half of the MH stories I remember amount to "one invasive species displaces another so now that's an invasive species too and you need to get them both back in line." (specifically I'm remembering the Gore Magala plot in MHX. or maybe it was the seregios gently caress me i'm not fishing out my 3ds) MH4's quest giver is explicitly passionate about documenting the lives and behaviors of the monsters, you pretty often get rewarded with videos of the monster just doing monster stuff living and eating, and there's a mechanical impetus to understanding what makes monsters tick. But it's always been weirdly paired with "okay now kill like ten rathaloses because you really need their gut parts". I haven't played MHWorld yet, but as a long time monster hunter fan the Forbes article rings pretty true with my own experiences playing the series. If I were an editor my only real thing would have been telling the writer to pull in more of the game's own weird conservationism into the article. edit: Also seriously the fact that Monster Hunter and Dark Souls are similar shouldn't even be vaguely controversial. It's one of those times where it's a fair comparison, even down to "overly long healing animations to keep you from just gargling the undo mistakes button" I'll also admit that the extent of my Cabela's knowledge is the Chip and Ironicus LPs so if I'm wrong and they do have an environmentalist undercurrent feel free to correct me on that one TGLT fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 03:07
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I can't be the only one who thinks the reason game journos fall back on Dark Souls comparisons is because they think their audience is full of illiterates who do the barest skim through articles/reviews/etc.
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Feb 1, 2018 04:26
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SimonChris posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi4CMOawBb8 Quoting this for new page because I find it more interesting than the Monster Hunter discussion and hopefully someone else will, too. It's even about video games!
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Feb 1, 2018 04:54
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More video games stuff via Extra Credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZZTIOR__Q Spicy hot take: it's Extra Credits, so they're mostly on the nose but still missing the tree for the forest. Yes, Hellblade is a great success, and we should learn from it! What can we learn from it? Oh, he's just ending the video instead. Okay. Honestly, this is probably the video Jim Sterling should do a response video for, because at least game budgeting isn't something he's run into the ground over the years yet.
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Feb 1, 2018 05:03
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SatansBestBuddy posted:More video games stuff via Extra Credits: Didn't he already do a Hellblade video?
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Feb 1, 2018 05:09
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Yes, Hellblade is a great success, and we should learn from it! What can we learn from it? Oh, he's just ending the video instead. Okay. This is the biggest loving flaw with EC. Their videos are far too short to get into literally any substance. They introduce a topic, raise one question about the topic, and then, oops, all out of time!
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Feb 1, 2018 05:41
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Kim Justice posted:Seriously, how easy would it be to make a Game Journalist Hot Take article generator? There is this: https://twitter.com/gamediscourse/status/958724973694210050 But I guess it's more of a Reaction To Game Journalism Hot Take generator. WampaLord posted:This is the biggest loving flaw with EC. Their videos are far too short to get into literally any substance. They introduce a topic, raise one question about the topic, and then, oops, all out of time! To be fair, this could be seen as a follow-up to their last video. Maybe, taken together, the next 5 episodes will round it up to an actual argument! 
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Feb 1, 2018 14:15
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sexpig by night posted:don't tell nobody but it's actually ok to use common cultural touchstones to describe a similar, more obscure, product, and MH and DS designs have very similar concepts based around timing and punishing poor play and forced conserving of resources as well as a focus on big cinematic boss fights that feel satisfying to master. The part where comparisons start to break down is when something is 'the Dark Souls of' something just because it's difficult, because we're not cultivating helpful language in discussing/talking about games, often reduced to talking in sales pitches. But MH and DS are quite similar in a lot of ways. I mean, Monster Hunter is basically quite bad and MH fans kind of get off on pretending it's more like DS than it is but they're still similar enough that it makes more sense than many of the other comparisons.
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Feb 1, 2018 14:47
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I think it's a case of two different approaches converging in the search for a Satisfying Gameplay Experience. Monhun felt like an evolution of Phantasy Star Online and its approach to lobby-based multiplayer action RPGs, while Souls came from altering the King's Field/Shadow Tower formula to improve the pacing and allow better vision of your character's periphery with a third-person perspective.
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Feb 1, 2018 14:56
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Kim Justice posted:The Dark Souls comparison is at least quite fair, even if it is certainly a cliched thing to say. I mean, it doesn't necessarily make it a good article because jeez, you really ought to think of more to say about the game other than "it's like Dark Souls" but it is fair. . . . do you think these websites don't have editors?
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Feb 1, 2018 15:32
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Leal posted:You know, I think that shotgun shell was photoshopped in. It wasn't. Bowguns are more guns than bows
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Feb 1, 2018 15:46
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poo poo, sometimes they're just straight up guns. Or cool cannons with flame decals.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:01
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WampaLord posted:This is the biggest loving flaw with EC. Their videos are far too short to get into literally any substance. They introduce a topic, raise one question about the topic, and then, oops, all out of time! You'd think that after doing their show for a literal decade that they'd finish addressing any topic.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:51
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:. . . do you think these websites don't have editors? Well, they technically do yeah. But is the process of editing as traditional as it used to be, where someone's going to go through articles and pore over them for inaccuracies/faults and what have you before they go live? That's kinda case by case, and perhaps something that's only found on the really big places nowadays. It's a lot laxer in my own experience of website writing, where often I'm just given a style guide, a comms channel to make sure I'm not doubling up on anything someone else is doing and could theoretically put whatever I wanted on the website for a good time before anyone stopped me. Waypoint to me certainly seems fairly lax, which is how certain things that end up causing a controversy slip through (I'm thinking of that thing a month ago where a fanfic slipped through that was all about forced feminization). I also don't think there's any insidious reason for this as such beyond Waypoint probably being a very small team of people (on a larger network that's kind of slipping down lately - Vice are in trouble), and resources probably run far too thin to do all that much proofreading. There's a lot of trust involved in online writing that you're not going to screw up badly and damage the site's name, because it's pretty likely no-one's going to read what you put up before it goes live. Again, this is case by case. I would imagine that someone like Forbes would have more resources for this sort of thing. John Murdoch posted:. Why are you misrepresenting the things I say and proclaiming that I am decreeing on high that these articles should be verboten? They're perfectly free to write these articles, and I'm perfectly free to complain about them. And think that there might just be some ulterior motive behind them such as a pursuit for clicks and what have you (How is that lovely? Like, you can't tell me that doesn't happen and keep a straight face. It happens. And no, I'm not stupid enough to think it's purely limited to takes like this. Hell, I'm likely not even going to blame the guy whose name and picture is on the article, because I know that such directions that are made in pursuit of clickbait often come from people higher up the chain who want those clicks). I did read the article in question, and sorry but no, I don't really care for it - for the reasons I described. Is it as terrible as the title makes it out to be (a title which in many ways does the piece a great disservice, and one which I wonder was the choice of the contributor)? No - the descriptions of the game and the hunt are very good, and if that brings about a certain ickiness? Then sure, I can go for that...but it does rather fall down when it brings comparisons to real-life hunting/conservation into the mix. I mean, even if some monsters are common and some are rare and some are one of a kind examples, the game (presumably - I may be wrong about this) still has an inexhaustible supply of them - you can always do the one quest where a certain creature is dominating an area and you need to pair them down in order to keep the balance. Is there a point where a specific species of monster gets less and less common as it's hunted, until it runs out completely? That's usually the case with games, and is the point where comparisons do kinda falter because the majority of games don't have that point. Even if a particular creature is rare, you can still hang around a place where they spawn for as long as you can stand and get as many of these creatures as you need. Some games do feature examples of the above. I remember playing through Red Dead Redemption and gaining an achievement on killing the last herd of American Buffalo in Great Plains - there is only one herd of about 20 buffalo roaming, and aside from one glitch they do not respawn. On the surface of it that sounds icky, and it certainly wasn't a nice thing to do - although there was a certain commentary involved in how characters of the game talked about buffalo (often in ways that represented misguided attitudes of the time, saying that we could kill as many buffalo as we pleased because they would ultimately adapt and grow stronger), and even the name of the achievement itself (Manifest Destiny). Of course, the execution itself may be a little questionable seeing as in the end you just get a stack of AP and the old familiar ding for doing it and that could certainly be taken to task. Kim Justice fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 17:32
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Kim Justice posted:Then sure, I can go for that...but it does rather fall down when it brings comparisons to real-life hunting/conservation into the mix. Okay I think this is the misunderstanding here. The series itself is inviting those considerations. The Forbes article only briefly hints at it when discussing some quests being about culling overgrown populations, and that's the real issue with it for me. Monster Hunter is real big into naturalistic techno-babble and trying to convey that the monsters aren't magical creatures but just big animals. It's not a fire breathing dragon, it's a giant lizard with an organ that naturally produces flammable powder. It's not a flying squid monster it's probably just an organic hot air balloon. It's not a lightning dog it's a a big canine in a symbiotic relationship with special bugs. And it wants you to think about their animal's biology for gameplay purposes - if you want to make the Zinogre's stuff you need fulgurbugs so you (kind of) need to understand what they are and so where you could get them (they live on its back, you gotta knock it over and go at it with a net). There's a tool called the sonic bomb that makes a really loud noise and will disorient some monsters. Which ones? The game doesn't just tell you, but it's ones with sensitive hearing. The Lagombi has big ears so obviously it'll work on that one, but it also works sometimes with the Diablos which doesn't have visible ears. Why? Well when you're fighting a Diablos it tends to dig underground and burrow around under you. Since it can't see where it's going, it has to echolocate (edit: or at least hear what's going on above it), so it has to have sensitive enough hearing to do that. So pop a sonic bomb over where it burrowed and it'll freak out. All that also means that Monster Hunter stories don't have big evil villains with grand plans, it just has big animals doing big animal stuff. You're there to support survey teams or figure out why a bunch of animals are migrating down a new path or whatever. The series very much wants you to think of its monsters as just being big animals, to think of its world as being a natural and coherent (okay sort of) ecosystem, and to consider your role as a hunter as part of maintaining that ecosystem in a way that lets your associated village survive in a world of godzillas. But, like the Forbes article indicates, you also sometimes just get quests to roll through those same ecosystems wrecking poo poo because like some one wanted a present for their crush. There isn't an extinction system, but there's a very real attempt to frame its world as a natural ecosystem with all the implications therein. Also while there isn't a system to accidentally make a monster go extinct, the background does include extinct species and poo poo. TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 18:08
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Ta muchly for all the background that I'm completely missing  EDIT: After the Red Strings stuff, that Forza ridiculousness and so much else I'm clearly on a bit of a hair trigger Kim Justice fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 18:18
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Honestly the Forbes article should have really gone more into the ways Monster Hunter tries to set its world up as a natural ecosystem instead of the standard big magical fantasy world. If just because it's one of the neater parts of the series. Like it breaks down when you think too much about it, boy there's a lot of giant predators but only a few giant herbivores, but it still helps set its world apart from something like Skyrim.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCcA4FyWeXI Errant signal on getting over it. Not really my kind of thing, but it's an interesting game beyond streamer rage fodder.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:52
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Calaveron posted:It wasn't. Bowguns are more guns than bows Huh, I used a few but then again I wasn't really looking to the side of my character. Guess I was too busy being a typical invasive human like my ancestors long past so I can turn this poor, defenseless fire breathing t rex into a hat.
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Feb 1, 2018 19:37
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TGLT posted:I'll also admit that the extent of my Cabela's knowledge is the Chip and Ironicus LPs so if I'm wrong and they do have an environmentalist undercurrent feel free to correct me on that one So, yeah, I think you're safe with your reading of Cabela's as "not exactly environmentalist."
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Feb 1, 2018 19:55
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Yeah, they can be just...well, slightly icky. But then I've heard some people I respect say pretty positive things about them from a gameplay perspective (well, one of the Xbox ones at least - dunno about any of the new ones). Here's Rab from Consolevania reviewing a Cabela game from many years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZhOT7ee3o (I keep wanting to buy that Hunter: Call of the Wild game, just 'cause I am kinda curious as to what one of these games are actually like)
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Feb 1, 2018 20:46
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Alaois posted:Demon's Souls was a spiritual successor to the FromSoftware-developed King's Field games, the first of which was published on the Sony Playstation in 1994. DS is almost nothing like Kings field apart from "have knight" and "use sword" E: I own probably every PC hunting game, but apart from a very shoddy LP I did ages ago I haven't really shown any off. If people are curious I can post about them, though. It's true that Cabela's games often pay lip service to conservation, either by penalizing you for shooting does instead of bucks or by explicitly establishing that every animal you shoot is already a man-eater. In one of the games you play as a park ranger and game warden on vacation. Another, bafflingly, has a plot about secret government experiments causing every animal to be dangerous, meaning it is definitely 100% ethical and good to kill them with a truck-mounted LMG. corn in the bible fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 20:47
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And the stamina bar, exploring a connected world, gross monsters, exact same intro format, and items that cross over into DS, story communicated indirectly.
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Feb 1, 2018 20:56
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:And the stamina bar, exploring a connected world, gross monsters, exact same intro format, and items that cross over into DS, story communicated indirectly. King's Field doesn't have a stamina bar, that's something that came with Shadow Tower: Abyss. But yeah the way the two series prize exploration is a big point linking them together, as well as its approach to story and world design. And I mean if you squint you can see the roots of Souls combat in the series - slow attacks you can't cancel out of and a big emphasis on waiting for openings.
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Feb 1, 2018 21:02
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TGLT posted:King's Field doesn't have a stamina bar, that's something that came with Shadow Tower: Abyss. But yeah the way the two series prize exploration is a big point linking them together, as well as its approach to story and world design. And I mean if you squint you can see the roots of Souls combat in the series - slow attacks you can't cancel out of and a big emphasis on waiting for openings. There is stamina, but it's handled a little differently. It's more like Secret of Mana where you're free to make swings when it's depleted but they'll be way weaker (and each swing depletes it completely iirc).
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Feb 1, 2018 21:07
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I totally forgot about that. So okay yeah, more like Souls that I remember.
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Feb 1, 2018 21:21
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but the gbs guy said i was wrong you guys aren't supposed to point out the similarities!!!!!!!!!!!
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Feb 1, 2018 22:03
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The things that people mean when they say "Dark Souls" are, I think, slow deliberate combat and maneuverability. Most of King's Field is spent circle-strafing stuff, because there's nothing to the combat except waiting for the bar to fill before striking. If you mean exploration, then I guess that's true. Otherwise, it's a "successor" in that they're medieval and stuff like that, and there's some items that reappear, but I don't think anyone who enjoyed playing King's Field would at all necessarily like playing Dark Souls or vice versa. And that's what we were talking about, right? Comparing it to Monster Hunter, etc? Thematically they are related but gameplay-wise they're almost completely different.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:52
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