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CannonFodder posted:The stow and go seating could be replaced with a whole lotta batteries. Doesn’t the plug in Pacifica already lack stow and go for that reason?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:15
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For new pageeyebeem posted:Doesn’t the plug in Pacifica already lack stow and go for that reason?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:18
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How much volume does your average ICE take up compared to your average EV setup? Obviously with the EV you can always add more batteries, so to some extent it depends on how much range you want, but roughly how do they compare?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:22
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:How much volume does your average ICE take up compared to your average EV setup? Obviously with the EV you can always add more batteries, so to some extent it depends on how much range you want, but roughly how do they compare? This is the leaf drivetrain  and the leaf battery pack is about twice the size of the gas tank in a similarly sized car for around half the range.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:30
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Do EVs need gear boxes? I thought their power curves were such that they weren’t as necessary. Mine doesn’t have one, but I’m not sure if it’s special in some way on that front.
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Feb 2, 2018 05:03
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They need a mechanism to get the power from the motor to the wheels with some gear reduction, but it's typically a single speed box with nothing to shift.
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Feb 2, 2018 05:34
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Subjunctive posted:Do EVs need gear boxes? I thought their power curves were such that they weren’t as necessary. Mine doesn’t have one, but I’m not sure if it’s special in some way on that front. Yours does have one, even if it's only a single gear. It's needed for both gear reduction and differential action.  This is the tesla gear box in the middle there with the motor on the left and inverter on the right. Even containing only 1 ratio, it isn't significantly smaller than the ZF transverse 9 speed. 
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Feb 2, 2018 05:35
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Powershift posted:and the leaf battery pack is about twice the size of the gas tank in a similarly sized car for around half the range. Gasoline is in fact one of the most energy-dense fuels we know of. All of the best ones, as measured in joules (megajoules) per litre of volume, are liquid hydrocarbons; diesel and kerosene are a little better than gasoline, but only by 10% or so. Gasoline stores approximately fifteen times more energy per litre than today's best lithium batteries. As a matter of fact, the only things on the planet that can store more energy per volume than a liquid hydrocarbon are nuclear materials. When you factor in the ease of transport and dispensing, it's doubtful that we'll ever have anything else as convenient and powerful as gasoline.
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Feb 2, 2018 06:27
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Sagebrush posted:When you factor in the ease of transport and dispensing, it's doubtful that we'll ever have anything else as convenient and powerful as gasoline. Except gasoline is not easy to extract, refine or transport in any sense compared to electricity. And dispensing, half the reason I wanted an electric car is to never visit one of those disgusting pumps again.
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Feb 2, 2018 08:01
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Electricity only seems easier to you because you live in the first world (well, Texas, but still). It takes roughly the same level of science to generate stable electrical power as it does to refine crude oil, but getting the electricity from place to place takes serious infrastructure. All I need to transport and dispense gasoline is a clay pot.
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Feb 2, 2018 08:18
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Sagebrush posted:Gasoline is in fact one of the most energy-dense fuels we know of. All of the best ones, as measured in joules (megajoules) per litre of volume, are liquid hydrocarbons; diesel and kerosene are a little better than gasoline, but only by 10% or so. Gasoline stores approximately fifteen times more energy per litre than today's best lithium batteries. Obviously there are other losses when you look at the big picture, like how that energy in the battery was initially obtained and converted.
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Feb 2, 2018 09:10
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Sagebrush posted:Gasoline is in fact one of the most energy-dense fuels we know of. All of the best ones, as measured in joules (megajoules) per litre of volume, are liquid hydrocarbons; diesel and kerosene are a little better than gasoline, but only by 10% or so. Gasoline stores approximately fifteen times more energy per litre than today's best lithium batteries. So what you're saying is, nuclear fission-powered cars.
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Feb 2, 2018 10:55
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Roadie posted:So what you're saying is, nuclear fission-powered cars. Fuel cells using petrol or natural gas are definitely still kicking around as concepts. Which would be a best-case scenario at the moment, if they ever sorted out how to deploy that safely in cars. You’d still need lithium as a buffer for electric motors to use, but way less of it...and range would likely be higher than any current EV or ICE, at a lower weight. Science, always promising poo poo.
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Feb 2, 2018 12:48
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Powershift posted:Yours does have one, even if it's only a single gear. It's needed for both gear reduction and differential action. Ah, cool. Thank you!
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Feb 2, 2018 13:05
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Sell me a nuclear reactor for my Volt please and thank you.
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Feb 2, 2018 13:31
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Three Olives posted:Except gasoline is not easy to extract, refine or transport in any sense compared to electricity. And dispensing, half the reason I wanted an electric car is to never visit one of those disgusting pumps again. It kind of depends what you mean easy. The cost of extraction and refining is baked into the pump price, including the fuel spent on crude carriers and flying personnel to oil rigs with helicopters. Incredible what you get for your money, really. What isn't baked into the pump price is the massive environmental damage done at every step of the process and the comparative advantage the oil business has through political influence. As soon as profitability drops, that political influence will evaporate much like a splash of gas on hot cylinder fins - quickly, but with some risk of conflagration. But yeah, never having to visit an energy filling station, at least in the day to day, is such a massive comfort boost to a commuter's life. If one is annoyed by one's commuting circumstances, moving to place such that a) you're within round trip battery range and b) you can charge the round trip at night in your own parking space, is a fairly accessible opportunity these days. What does the cost per mile figure out to in American conditions? I know Norway is a bit of an outlier when it comes to electricity and gas prices, but here a safe assumption is 1.05 NOK/km for gasoline and 0.20 NOK/km for home charging. A cost factor of 5x + the comfort of not going to a gas station + much more environmentally friendly + 
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Feb 2, 2018 13:42
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Frinkahedron posted:The California 2017 Self Driving Car disengagement reports are out It appears they're using that "shadow mode" thing as a complete substitute for real-world hands-off driving tests: https://jalopnik.com/californias-autonomous-car-reports-are-the-best-in-the-1822606953 It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Shadow mode (running on each and every Tesla with the new Autopilot hardware, scattered across the planet) would provide a much larger and more diverse set of test data than they could realistically get from dedicated test vehicles.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:00
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I thought they ran HW1 in shadow mode too, hmm.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:05
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CannonFodder posted:For new page The middle row stow and go is gone but the rear is still there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6c52ShiYGg&t=2s
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Feb 2, 2018 14:20
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Three Olives posted:And dispensing, half the reason I wanted an electric car is to never visit one of those disgusting pumps again. Big Oil is in cahoots with the Hand Sanitizer cartel
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Feb 2, 2018 15:32
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Three Olives posted:Except gasoline is not easy to extract, refine or transport in any sense compared to electricity. And dispensing, half the reason I wanted an electric car is to never visit one of those disgusting pumps again. Where do you think electricity comes from? You think it comes from the wall, don't you?
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Feb 2, 2018 16:36
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Powershift posted:An ICE set-up is usually smaller. AN EV motor + accessories + gear box is currently pretty close to the size of a small i3/i4, gasoline is far more energy dense than current batteries. You do have more flexibility in where you can put things. Thats actually a hybrid, you can see the engine and oil filter on the left side there. Google says that is an ePOWER, and "e-POWER adds a small gasoline engine to charge the high-output battery when necessary". I think the Leaf part is only on the right? I also didn't find a quick photo of a leaf engine.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:58
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Ola posted:What does the cost per mile figure out to in American conditions? I know Norway is a bit of an outlier when it comes to electricity and gas prices, but here a safe assumption is 1.05 NOK/km for gasoline and 0.20 NOK/km for home charging. A cost factor of 5x + the comfort of not going to a gas station + much more environmentally friendly + In California (which has among the highest tax rates on gas), the average gallon of gas is somewhere around $2.80/gallon at the moment. If you get 30 mi/gallon, which ought to be achievable by most commuter vehicles, that works out to a bit over 9 cents per mile, or .43NOK/km. Meanwhile, electricity costs around $.19/kWH. Looks like the Tesla model S gets around 3 miles to the kWH, so that works out to a bit over 6 cents per mile, or .29NOK/km. Gas is ridiculously undertaxed in the USA compared to in Europe. It wouldn't surprise me if electric cars were actually more expensive per-mile in states with lower gas taxes, though that doesn't factor in the increased maintenance costs of the gas car compared to the electric.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:59
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:In California (which has among the highest tax rates on gas), the average gallon of gas is somewhere around $2.80/gallon at the moment. If you get 30 mi/gallon, which ought to be achievable by most commuter vehicles, that works out to a bit over 9 cents per mile, or .43NOK/km. Meanwhile, electricity costs around $.19/kWH. Looks like the Tesla model S gets around 3 miles to the kWH, so that works out to a bit over 6 cents per mile, or .29NOK/km. Cool. So perhaps it is at worst 1:1? It would be interesting to see global data on this ratio. I bet Saudi Arabia doesn't come out well. Godholio posted:Where do you think electricity comes from? Electricity is a cinch compared to gas. Most gas is hauled by gas (or diesel I guess) powered trucks, like horses carrying feed for other horses. Electricty shoots down a wire at the speed of light and can be harvested by a flat, passive, silent solar panel - or from a smoke belching coal plant. For every potential complicated and polluting thing in electricity's chain, such as mining for solar panel minerals or burning coal to generate power, there is an equivalent complicated and polluting thing in gasoline's chain. However, there are some things that do not pollute in electricity, but there are no such things in gasoline.
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Feb 2, 2018 17:22
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Ola posted:Cool. So perhaps it is at worst 1:1? Yes, there are states where a Prius is about as cheap to run as an EV. Electricity prices are much less volatile and are heavily regulated in the US though, so that's only going to be the case until oil prices spike again for whatever reason.
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Feb 2, 2018 17:25
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Ola posted:
well, until you need a peaker plant at your high usage truck charging stop
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Feb 2, 2018 17:30
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hifi posted:well, until you need a peaker plant at your high usage truck charging stop No, it still holds. Then the peaker plant will pollute, but other charging will not. Fossil fuel will always pollute and never not pollute.
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Feb 2, 2018 17:35
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hifi posted:well, until you need a peaker plant at your high usage truck charging stop I've been wondering if large Powerwall installation could be economical at charging stations that don't have access to very high capacity power lines.
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Feb 2, 2018 18:00
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Technically Whale oil is a renewable biofuel
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Feb 2, 2018 18:03
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Godholio posted:Where do you think electricity comes from? Ola posted:It kind of depends what you mean easy. The cost of extraction and refining is baked into the pump price, including the fuel spent on crude carriers and flying personnel to oil rigs with helicopters. Incredible what you get for your money, really. What isn't baked into the pump price is the massive environmental damage done at every step of the process and the comparative advantage the oil business has through political influence. As soon as profitability drops, that political influence will evaporate much like a splash of gas on hot cylinder fins - quickly, but with some risk of conflagration. I live in Texas which somewhat paradoxically given its history and image as an oil state and still does have some of the cheapest gas in the country also has shitloads of dirt cheap wind and solar energy. Gas right now is right now is $2.40 a gallon so say a Honda Civic with an average fuel economy of 29MPG so $.082 cents a mile. A 100% renewable electric plan costs no more than $.09 a KwH, my car gets 4.1 miles per Kwh so $.022 a mile with 100% solar/wind. Don't care about solar/wind? $.028 a KwH or $.007 a mile and a lot of it is still probably going to come from renewable sources. Running an electric car in a state with incredibly cheap gas is comically cheap even on 100% renewable energy,
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Feb 2, 2018 18:04
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Ola posted:Electricity is a cinch compared to gas. Most gas is hauled by gas (or diesel I guess) powered trucks, like horses carrying feed for other horses. Electricty shoots down a wire at the speed of light and can be harvested by a flat, passive, silent solar panel - or from a smoke belching coal plant. This is such a silly argument.The infrastructure required for anything more than local power generation, regulation (not of the paper variety, rather what is required to make sure that you get 110v@60hz at the wall,) and (particularly) distribution makes gasoline and diesel production and distro look like baby time frolics. Just because one step of the process is a HV line, and the other is a tractor-trailer truck doesn't mean one is simple and easy.
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Feb 2, 2018 18:24
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MrYenko posted:Just because one step of the process is a HV line, and the other is a tractor-trailer truck doesn't mean one is simple and easy. Well of course it is not simple or easy but the infrastructure is already in place and proven and we have figured out how to put massive amounts of renewable power on it cheaply. Just doing the math tells me that running a car on a home charger is a hell of a lot cheaper than filling up a gas tank.
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Feb 2, 2018 18:51
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I don’t think the distribution infrastructure is in place to let my neighbourhood gas station replace its 8 pumps with 8 fast chargers, even if generation were solved.
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Feb 2, 2018 18:55
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Subjunctive posted:I don’t think the distribution infrastructure is in place to let my neighbourhood gas station replace its 8 pumps with 8 fast chargers, even if generation were solved. We build out new infrastructure all the time, though. And once capacity is in place, it mostly just stays put. I'd guess that your average high-capacity power line plus transformers, poles, etc. has a considerably lower maintenance burden than a fleet of trucks to deliver the corresponding amount of energy in fossil fuel form.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:02
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Subjunctive posted:I don’t think the distribution infrastructure is in place to let my neighbourhood gas station replace its 8 pumps with 8 fast chargers, even if generation were solved. Why would you want to charge your car at the neighborhood gas station? Which is not to argue that fast charging doesn't have a place in infrastructure for electric cars but electric cars have enough range for most people to do almost all of their driving by just plugging in when they get home instead of charging when out and about.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:06
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:We build out new infrastructure all the time, though. Three Olives said it was in place, and that’s what I was replying to. Three Olives posted:Why would you want to charge your car at the neighborhood gas station? Which is not to argue that fast charging doesn't have a place in infrastructure for electric cars but electric cars have enough range for most people to do almost all of their driving by just plugging in when they get home instead of charging when out and about. Because my apartment building doesn’t have 500 chargers? Because I only have street parking? Because I’m visiting someone who doesn’t have a spare charger? Because I forgot to plug in last night? “Most of the time you can use your car” isn’t really a solved state. It also totally ignores the transportation aspect of “taxis”, for example.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:13
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MrYenko posted:This is such a silly argument.The infrastructure required for anything more than local power generation, regulation (not of the paper variety, rather what is required to make sure that you get 110v@60hz at the wall,) and (particularly) distribution makes gasoline and diesel production and distro look like baby time frolics. Just because one step of the process is a HV line, and the other is a tractor-trailer truck doesn't mean one is simple and easy. Well, simple and easy aren't strict quantitative terms either. But rather than looking at how simple/complicated the total systems are today, which is very much apples to oranges, you can ask what's the simplest possible way to add energy to either flavor of car? All petroleum gasoline comes from crude, all crude comes from a reservoir that needs constant engineering to produce. That crude must be physically moved to a refinery, best case yards away, refined and best case you can fill your car straight from the refinery output tap. Ignoring the production of the production equipment, there are probably thousands, but at minimum a handful of specially train people absolutely required to make your gasoline, even if they spend their time on a chair looking at a computer system. An electric car can recharge from a solar panel on the garage roof. Again ignoring production of the production equipment, zero people are involved, it's entirely passive. (Robert Llewlellyn has a system like this). If you have an oil reservoir below your house, there is no equipment you can install that automatically extracts and refines crude into gasoline and fills your car up with it. So case 1 from here might be better or worse than case 2 from there. But electricity has the simplest possible way.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:14
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Subjunctive posted:I don’t think the distribution infrastructure is in place to let my neighbourhood gas station replace its 8 pumps with 8 fast chargers, even if generation were solved. It's not, but installing the capacity is only a question of dollars, rather than waiting for technology, like in batteries. 480V 3-phase isn't common in commercial or residential installations because nothing prior to electric cars really needed it. At the same time, it's extremely common in industrial applications to drive machine tools and other industrial processes. Getting a three-phase connection is a bit more involved than a standard 2-phase service, but not unheard of. I'd really love to see a Tesla Supercharger installation contract... The power needs of those chargers are pretty high, and I suspect that they use leased transformers and run directly on transmission voltage.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:16
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Cockmaster posted:It appears they're using that "shadow mode" thing as a complete substitute for real-world hands-off driving tests: Yep. That's true, but they'll still need to actually test the system, eventually. The metrics on disengagements once they do will be VERY intriguing.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:17
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MrYenko posted:It's not, but installing the capacity is only a question of dollars, rather than waiting for technology, like in batteries. 480V 3-phase isn't common in commercial or residential installations because nothing prior to electric cars really needed it. At the same time, it's extremely common in industrial applications to drive machine tools and other industrial processes. Getting a three-phase connection is a bit more involved than a standard 2-phase service, but not unheard of. Yeah, I don’t think 3-phase 480V is going to power 8 concurrent fast chargers. It’s dollars, but it’s dollars to change a lot of distribution infrastructure, and probably some zoning or other regulation here and there.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:19
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