|
Der Kyhe posted:F35 fighter jet. Or that littoral combat ship that does not hit poo poo with its impractical weapons, while the hull aggressively* dissolves in salt water. Those are the result of a different engineering folly, which is concurrent development. Wherein a project relying on certain technologies and expertise is developed along with these individual technologies and expertise required for it to be feasible, hoping that the many developers will actually deliver the promised outputs within the requested specs and without omitting anything important. If this sounds dumb to you, you are smarter than the military industrial complex.
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 19:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 04:15 |
|
|
On this topic, one thing that the original Mythbusters, and Jamie Hyneman in particular, did do correctly was that they tried to conceive the idea that "simpler is always better if it does the same job". Looking nice is not a thing, having cutting edge tech is not a thing, and being overtly sophisticated and fine tuned is definitely not a thing, if we have a design that is reliable, simple, easy to industrially reproduce and maintenance free, and basically does the same thing. The AK-series of assault rifles, Toyota Hilux 4th gen. and the old Nokia mobile phones were the epitome of this engineering approach. They will shoot, drive and call, probably even after the third world war, whereas the fancier guns with the nightvision and poo poo, modern cars and iPhone die or malfunction on you unless provided with a constant stream of maintenance .
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 20:29
|
|
|
Alan Hale (dude who played Skipper on Gilligan's Island) broke his arm on set once and didn't tell anyone (including Sherwood Schwartz) about it until the second season after-party, three or four weeks later. He had done all the stunts, all the being pelted with coconuts, all the carrying of Bob Denver, without telling anyone. His reason for not saying anything? "Why go through all that trouble? We only had a couple of shows left." Read Inside Gilligan's Island, it's pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 20:36
|
|
|
Der Kyhe posted:Everything in the Nazi war machine and superiors expecting to have "wonder weapons" made this problem even more flaring than what to usually expect. The funny thing about this being that one of the culminations of the war was the deployment of a wonder weapon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 20:39
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:The funny thing about this being that one of the culminations of the war was the deployment of a wonder weapon. If you are referring to the atom bombs, that was just an acceleration of the inevitable. USA would and could have invaded the mainland Japan, and would have won the war eventually. Statistically speaking, using the a-bomb twice probably saved more lives and infrastructure than what it destroyed, in the long run. War is hell. And statistics. Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 20:51 on Feb 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
Perestroika posted:That's how you ended up with a whole lot of Nazi engineering that, on a purely technical level, is really ingenious and clever. Jerrycans were a good example of that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Jerrycans were a good example of that. Also the tanks (which are lambasted here) were in service for the next 10-20 years in various places after the initial problems were fixed. Also the design of the helmets (for WW2) and the Sturmgehver-44 was the sort-of-basis of AK and other assault rifles so overall they had a clue, but were too ambitious with their original plans. Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 21:07 on Feb 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:04
|
|
|
Nazis invented the jerrycan?
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:09
|
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:Nazis invented the jerrycan? They did, and they also invented the coloring scheme to always separate water, diesel and gasoline from each other. Of course their name for the system was something sexy like Wehrmacht-Einheitskanister. Jerry canister == "The German canister" Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 21:19 on Feb 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:16
|
|
|
They're also really cool, because unlike every previous gas can they don't require tools or a funnel and you can carry like four of them at a time due to the handle design.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:20
|
|
|
Der Kyhe posted:Also the tanks (which are lambasted here) were in service for the next 10-20 years in various places after the initial problems were fixed. Also the design of the helmets (for WW2) and the Sturmgehver-44 was the sort-of-basis of AK and other assault rifles so overall they had a clue, but were too ambitious with their original plans. The StG 44 was the "basis for the AK" really only in the sense that Kalashnikov was kind of inspired by the idea of an assault rifle firing an intermediate cartridge. Similar designs like the Fedorov Avtomat had existed prior, but the StG 44 was the first to be produced in large numbers and see successful combat use on a large scale of any kind, and it got the Soviets to put serious effort toward making their own after having previously shelved the idea. Their operating systems have little in common and the AK actually stole more from American designs (like the safety of the Remington Model 8 semi-auto hunting rifle). Their similarity in appearance was mostly because the design layout was the most sensible one for that kind of rifle. Fun fact: the SKS actually saw testing during the Battle of Berlin.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
I'm just really impressed that stone age folks bothered polishing their stone axes that much. Like consider the amount of work involved to make A look like B:  though I guess now that I look at them, it's more badass if you have a totally smooth stone axe that's obviously been used. Can't really tell from plain sight if the rough one was used or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 21:53
|
|
|
They had a lot of time on their hands
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 22:12
|
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:Everything I hear about Nazi weapons seems to indicate they were made specifically to give boners to slavering war-nerds with no sense of practicality, tactics or logistics, which to be fair is probably entirely accurate. And that limp dicked war-nerd with no sense of Practicality, Tactics, or Logicstics that needed high-tech gadgets to serve as his viagra? Adolf loving Hitler himself. Not that the rest of Nazi High Command wasn't filled with fuckwits (hell every high command had and will have their share), but Hitler was at the top and one of the worst enabler for this madness. The only reason the famous Me-262 got into the air was because every time Hitler asked him if it could carry bombs, Messerschmidt looked him in the eyes and said "Yes." And it eventually did! All...100kg or so that they strapped under the wings of what was basically an interceptor/air superiority fighter just so that Messerschmidt could say he wasn't a liar. As has been said, the Nazis developed a lot of clever bits and bobs during the war but people don't fetishize them. Jerrycans (as mentioned there's a reason they're called Jerry cans) are clever, practical to the extreme and very clever...but not sexy. The MG42 was a solid gun but it wasn't ZE TIGER PANZERKAMPFVAGON. On the other hand not all of the stupid ideas were German. The Americans made an infantry anti-tank bomb/grenade. You press a button and the shell popped off of this huge ball on a stick to reveal a bunch of sticky glue that would stick to the tank. This had the obvious flaw that you had to get close to the tank to use this, but sometimes that happened and tank crews are half blind without their infantry support since they're looking out of tiny little viewports. The less obvious flaw was that the button that that popped the glue-protecting shell also armed the grenade/started the timer. Hope you weren't goign for a throw and just stuck a live grenade to the tree or wall behind you...or the back of your own shirt. Krankenstyle posted:I'm just really impressed that stone age folks bothered polishing their stone axes that much. Like consider the amount of work involved to make A look like B: Well there's the fact that the smooth axe looks like it will actually cut something. The rough one might cut a tough hide but it won't do so evenly. The stone one that's been polished doesn't have all these little lumps that will catch on the animal you're trying to kill for dinner, or tree you're trying to cut down to make a house out of or feed a fire.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 22:25
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:The StG 44 was the "basis for the AK" really only in the sense that Kalashnikov was kind of inspired by the idea of an assault rifle firing an intermediate cartridge. Similar designs like the Fedorov Avtomat had existed prior, but the StG 44 was the first to be produced in large numbers and see successful combat use on a large scale of any kind, and it got the Soviets to put serious effort toward making their own after having previously shelved the idea. Their operating systems have little in common and the AK actually stole more from American designs (like the safety of the Remington Model 8 semi-auto hunting rifle). Their similarity in appearance was mostly because the design layout was the most sensible one for that kind of rifle. Yeah I accept all this but the original idea lies between the systems. Lahti-SMG was one motherfucker against the Soviets and overall the idea of having a gun which had a "sort of" rifle range with the firepower of the machine gun was an idea, not a fully developed system.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 23:04
|
|
|
Alkydere posted:Well there's the fact that the smooth axe looks like it will actually cut something. The rough one might cut a tough hide but it won't do so evenly. The stone one that's been polished doesn't have all these little lumps that will catch on the animal you're trying to kill for dinner, or tree you're trying to cut down to make a house out of or feed a fire. I've changed my mind. They say in movies that you can't feel getting stabbed with a sharp knife, but if it's like a bread knife, that poo poo will hurt like a motherfucker. Also, it will cause more damage, cf. barbs and what-not. I think a rough stone axe is more badass than a smooth one. Only chieftains and use smooth stone axes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 23:22
|
|
|
Krankenstyle posted:I've changed my mind. They say in movies that you can't feel getting stabbed with a sharp knife My sister once cut her foot on scalpel and didn't realize she had done it before she saw all the blood.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 23:50
|
|
|
Heck yea here we go, it's statistics.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2018 23:54
|
|
|
Alkydere posted:And that limp dicked war-nerd with no sense of Practicality, Tactics, or Logicstics that needed high-tech gadgets to serve as his viagra? Adolf loving Hitler himself. Not that the rest of Nazi High Command wasn't filled with fuckwits (hell every high command had and will have their share), but Hitler was at the top and one of the worst enabler for this madness. In a lot of ways the Nazis beat themselves by just, you know, being Nazis. Their attitude was that they'd basically win by default because they were just plain superior people. They'd continue their plan of exterminating their lessers and then just ride how awesome and amazing they were to victory. German engineers were the best because they were German! Nothing else needed to be said; given that he was Lead German Hitler just kind of defaulted to "my opinion is absolutely always right and don't question it." You didn't want to get on his bad side. Meanwhile the pretty rigid hierarchy limited the actual pool of talent they had. That was also part of what led to their love of hand made, over-engineered tanks. Skilled German craftsmen would obviously make the best things because they were German. Don't question it! The brutal repression of ideas Der Furher didn't like because fascism also didn't help. Compare that to America who did stuff like how the Jeep came to be; instead of picking a favorite due to breeding they just contacted basically every vehicle manufacturer, gave them specs and a timeframe, and said "this is what we want. Big bag of cash to whoever gets the first prototype to us." It was like "we want this, somebody make it happen, we don't give a poo poo who."
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 00:37
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:In a lot of ways the Nazis beat themselves by just, you know, being Nazis. Their attitude was that they'd basically win by default because they were just plain superior people. They'd continue their plan of exterminating their lessers and then just ride how awesome and amazing they were to victory. German engineers were the best because they were German! Nothing else needed to be said; given that he was Lead German Hitler just kind of defaulted to "my opinion is absolutely always right and don't question it." You didn't want to get on his bad side. Meanwhile the pretty rigid hierarchy limited the actual pool of talent they had. That was also part of what led to their love of hand made, over-engineered tanks. Skilled German craftsmen would obviously make the best things because they were German. Don't question it! The brutal repression of ideas Der Furher didn't like because fascism also didn't help. Having read through this word salad, I strongly recommend that you should seek help.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 00:44
|
|
|
The system was hardly rigid when people could just start building their terrible non-approved pseudo-tanks on a whim and then successfully request retroactive funding for the procurement of hardware nobody asked for.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Alkydere posted:And that limp dicked war-nerd with no sense of Practicality, Tactics, or Logicstics that needed high-tech gadgets to serve as his viagra? Adolf loving Hitler himself. Not that the rest of Nazi High Command wasn't filled with fuckwits (hell every high command had and will have their share), but Hitler was at the top and one of the worst enabler for this madness. The sticky bomb was actually British. There’s a documented training accident (I think Home Guard) where the live grenade got stuck to the thrower’s pants. Someone helped rip them off and hurl them away.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 00:53
|
|
|
Need I remind yall of the milhist thread that was pointed out? Or you want perhaps to feel the difference between a lovely half-finished stone axe and a very well-polished stone axe
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 01:05
|
|
|
Samovar posted:Edit: Actually, since we're talking about WW2, I have an interesting fact that is thankfully not about tanks. The U.K. 'trained' a bunch of militiamen to act as immediate defence against Nazi invaders, particularly around areas thought to be vulnerable to paratrooper attack - you may have heard them jocularly known as 'Dad's army's, due to the average member being a bit long in the tooth. They were given pretty shoddy equipment and were often more a hindrance than a help. Though the Brits came up with a lot of clever designs in WWII, a lot of their last-ditch emergency gear for the Home Guard to defend against Sealion was pretty sketchy. My favorite and most terrible off all was the Northover Projector:  It's hard to succinctly describe how terrible this weapon was: basically it's 10 bob of hollow pipe from a hardware store, welded together. You jam the shell and a packet of black powder into the breech, and put a percussion cap on the nipple, basically like an oversized musket of the American Civil War. Don't forget that using a bunch of black powder means that when you shoot it there will be a big puff of black smoke that will linger around your firing point and make you a target. And that's particularly bad since BP is lower pressure than modern gunpowder, and the barrel is just a smooth tube, so the accurate range against a German vehicle is maybe 100 yards, so presumably you just fire it once and then the crew runs like hell. The absolute best part: the projectile is a loving glass bottle full of white phosphorus. There are many, many things bad about that, including that it's a bitch to store because if you break a bottle it could set the whole building on fire. Then of course there are many exciting scenarios under which you don't nail a German vehicle, like the bottle just clears the muzzle and cracks and showers the crew area with burning phosphorus, or just blows up while still in the tube and turns your barrel into a pipe-bomb. And then the larger issue that in testing it turns out that a pint-bottle of WP doesn't actually bother a tank that much unless you get a really lucky hit. So probably one of the worst pieces of Home Guard equipment, though it's hard to compete with the gov't proposal to produce a bunch of pikes (long spears) to issue to the Home Guard, so if need be a bunch of old dudes could make a running charge at submachine-gun armed Germans and try to poke them to death. EDIT: here's a great 1min video showing Northover testing. I'm surprised how it's faster to load then I thought, but check out how long the hang-time is on the shell even when they're firing at a cliff maybe 200yds away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Q-mqdukJ4 TapTheForwardAssist has a new favorite as of 03:40 on Feb 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 02:49
|
|
|
TapTheForwardAssist posted:EDIT: here's a great 1min video showing Northover testing. I'm surprised how it's faster to load then I thought, but check out how long the hang-time is on the shell even when they're firing at a cliff maybe 200yds away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Q-mqdukJ4 Took about 5 seconds to hit that cliff. Stated muzzle velocity is 200 FPS, so that cliff is about 330 yards away. Five seconds to hit something within assault rifle range. Hope it doesn't move a single goddamn inch after you pull the trigger.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 04:12
|
|
|
The cliff is closer than that because at that speed, it’s nowhere near a straight shot.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 04:18
|
|
|
I'm not entirely sure the advantages of that thing over a slingshot.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 04:41
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:Took about 5 seconds to hit that cliff. Stated muzzle velocity is 200 FPS, so that cliff is about 330 yards away. jesus christ at that point just surrender
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 04:59
|
|
|
From the Danish newspaper Jyllandsposten – July 3, 1912quote:"Idiot!" (my translation obviously) Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 05:25 on Feb 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 05:18
|
|
|
Trauma Dog 3000 posted:jesus christ at that point just surrender Funny thing thing about those keep calm and carry on signs is that they were only to be used in the event of invasion and occupation. Seems like they were prepared to do everything the Americans said the Japanese would have if we had invaded.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 06:15
|
|
|
Krankenstyle posted:I've changed my mind. They say in movies that you can't feel getting stabbed with a sharp knife, but if it's like a bread knife, that poo poo will hurt like a motherfucker. Also, it will cause more damage, cf. barbs and what-not. As someone who has been stabbed with a spoon before I can agree
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 10:21
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:As someone who has been stabbed with a spoon before I can agree heck yeah
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 10:38
|
|
|
I recall reading about prehistoric flint axes, spearheads and even knives which have been sharpened to near-monomolecular edges.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 10:48
|
|
|
Inescapable Duck posted:I recall reading about prehistoric flint axes, spearheads and even knives which have been sharpened to near-monomolecular edges. might be the obsidian that the pre-columbian mesoamericans used? i read somewhere that their sharpness was so wild they never got around to bothering with metallurgy very possible thats bullshit
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 10:58
|
|
|
Krankenstyle posted:might be the obsidian that the pre-columbian mesoamericans used? i read somewhere that their sharpness was so wild they never got around to bothering with metallurgy They're really really sharp but also really brittle. Kind of like Japanese steel blades. So, good for cutting things, less good for fighting dudes. E: Mesoamericans made a sort of sword from it by putting little obsidian blades on the edges of a wood paddle:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl pidan has a new favorite as of 11:06 on Feb 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 11:03
|
|
|
Yea I know they're worthless except in a world where you only have that, much like Samurai swords &c I think molecular obsidian blades are what Inescapable Duck talks about though
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 11:05
|
|
|
Krankenstyle posted:Yea I know they're worthless except in a world where you only have that, much like Samurai swords &c
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 12:14
|
|
|
I’ve posted this in the thread before. Japanese razors made economical use of steel. The blade is asymmetrical. Cuts are made with the “ura” away from the skin. Why? So that the good steel could be concentrated at the cutting edge. The bulk of the blade is made of inferior metal.  You can see the transition between metals here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 12:19
|
|
|
That was a bad period to be a horse...
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 12:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 04:15 |
|
|
Nessus posted:They're far from worthless, it's a question of economy. The Aztecs had little metalworking technology but they were intelligent and clever just as everyone else is. If there'd been large amounts of obsidian laying around in Europe it would have probably been used for fine surgery and cutting blades, just as it is today. God, if it seemed like I was talking about Americans as if they weren't irl folks, I apologize. It is obvious to me that all people in the present and the past are clever as gently caress. very probably the future too but we'll see
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2018 12:25
|
|