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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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Angepain posted:By assuming that the only reason people disagree with you on this issue is that they're blind followers of a political party that supports them you're kinda contributing to the partisan toxicity of scottish politics discourse yourself, here. Except thats not what happened there. That was someone delivering a sick burn about something i never said to defend the policy.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:07
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it was the "glorious leaders" bit I was mainly finding fault with.Aramoro posted:Yes again I'm not saying we should be charging tuition fees. What im saying is our overall education policy is not working, but Holyrood will do nothing about it whilst they can crow about free tuition. Looking back on this conversation you were really unclear on this. I can understand why people would be unclear what your real argument is when you start off with saying "Free university tuition has failed as a policy" and only explicitly clarifying several posts later that you were in favour of free tuition as a policy but wanted other things done as well.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:13
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Coohoolin posted:You started by saying it was free tuition that was the problem. Presumably because of the SNP. Ok ill go through it slower for you. The policy did not have the intended affect, whilst well intentioned it was unsupported. Nothing to do with the SNP there. Now where it does become about the SNP is they are do nothing about it. Which they should be because you know, theyre the government. quote:
Some more famous Coohoolin sources. And you know in fairness some of them might work. Which goes back to my central point, whoes going to do them? The government doesn't seem to be and theres no real opposition right now. We can have all the brilliant ideas we like, we need politicians to implement them.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:20
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Angepain posted:it was the "glorious leaders" bit I was mainly finding fault with. I'll give you that I was unclear at the start. I have to confess i didn't intend to start a debate about this topic, but rather the lack of a coherent opposition in Scotland.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:27
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Would there really be more places in university if tuition costs were like in England? Perhaps there wouldn't be an official cap, but a lot more poor people wouldn't be able to afford it. The results would be the same. The problem isn't that free tuition doesn't work, the problem is that other things are also required. That doesn't make free tuition in itself a bad policy. It's still something that is necessary, even though it's not sufficient. Basically we don't actually disagree.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:30
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Aramoro posted:Ok ill go through it slower for you. The policy did not have the intended affect, whilst well intentioned it was unsupported. Nothing to do with the SNP there. You don't need to take my word for it. Student union reps and campaigners freely publish their proposals and campaign aims, and the procedural motions put forward at every SU AGM are readily available. Seems like something you might have been researching if you care so much about the problems facing education in Scotland, rather than just "the government is doing something bad".
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Feb 4, 2018 17:32
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If you’re looking for policies that will be implemented by the government I’m not sure student union AGMs are the place to look.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:40
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Coohoolin posted:You don't need to take my word for it. Student union reps and campaigners freely publish their proposals and campaign aims, and the procedural motions put forward at every SU AGM are readily available. Seems like something you might have been researching if you care so much about the problems facing education in Scotland, rather than just "the government is doing something bad". Sorry, when did we devolve education policy to Student Unions? I must have missed that, big if true.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:50
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No, but that's where students who've decided to dedicate their day to day lives to improve education in Scotland put forward their ideas, and where you might look for potential solutions.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:54
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Coohoolin posted:No, but that's where students who've decided to dedicate their day to day lives to improve education in Scotland put forward their ideas, and where you might look for potential solutions. Im not in charge of implementing education policy either? Wait am i? Maybe that explains a lot.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:01
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Free university tuition isn’t even just an SNP policy anymore, so it’s a bit bizarre to take criticism of it as some kind of partisan shot at your party.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:47
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Coohoolin posted:No, but that's where students who've decided to dedicate their day to day lives to improve education in Scotland put forward their ideas, and where you might look for potential solutions. Improving all education (early years onward) or just university education? Cos they're different (related) agendas and, if I'm reading him right, Aramoro is pointing to a problem with people from poorer backgrounds leaving high school with worse results and as a result not getting a chance to take advantage of free university tuition as places are limited and they don't make the cut. Sorting university level education is not going to help if the problem has its origins before people even think of applying for university places.
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Feb 4, 2018 19:19
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From the experience of my coursemates during uni (not long ago in glasgow), I'd guess that university participation by the working class would be significantly worse if we had fees in Scotland. There seemed to be a real aversion to even taking out the maintenance loan amongst most of the lower-middle/working class folk in my class. Most of them would commute in from home, and work a detrimental (to their studies) number of hours somewhere their home town. The story was always the same - they'd love to move out but their parents had drilled into them that the maintenance loan would be like private debt. So instead they'd work to pay for their travel costs, while being fairly miserable that they had to put in so much effort to join in the social things. If you put up a "loan debt" barrier then the old scottish stereotype of being tightarsed and debt-adverse comes roaring back to life, IMO. twoot fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 20:02
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At this point uni tuition should probably be free and supported by a graduate tax in order to ensure there are enough places and staff and all that to meet demand. But I say that without having done any research into it. I just know my own circumstance, that paying to go to uni down south is quite intimidating and offputting. And education for educations sake is good, a population that actually understands the world, it's unequivocally positive, informed voters are good. Also it's funny that after talking about killing the thread we've had 30 posts in less than a day.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:46
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EmptyVessel posted:Improving all education (early years onward) or just university education? Cos they're different (related) agendas and, if I'm reading him right, Aramoro is pointing to a problem with people from poorer backgrounds leaving high school with worse results and as a result not getting a chance to take advantage of free university tuition as places are limited and they don't make the cut. Sorting university level education is not going to help if the problem has its origins before people even think of applying for university places. Both. There is a problem with colleges being underrepresented because the whole activism culture is more of a uni thing but there's specific campaigns put in place to compensate for this. I'm not saying it'll fix things, just that if you're interested in proposed solution and research about education in Scotland, maybe looking at what the people most affected are saying can be useful.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:10
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From the UKMT, but seemed more appropriate here (although possibly not if we're going to merge the threads):Coohoolin posted:That's not really the effective starting point of union, that would be down to the Darien scheme misfiring (largely in part due to English interference with the supply chain) and the aristos Burns referred to as a "parcel of rogues" selling out the country to the English establishment. I know it's Coohoolin, but this is a really, really piss poor attempt at understanding history.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:15
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bloody english interfering with our attempts to build a colonial empire 
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Feb 4, 2018 23:20
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It would have been a joyous and civic empire though.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:27
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Scotland was far more successful at colonialism via the wee frees, they've still got churches kicking about in far corners.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:31
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Coohoolin posted:Both. There is a problem with colleges being underrepresented because the whole activism culture is more of a uni thing but there's specific campaigns put in place to compensate for this. I'm not saying it'll fix things, just that if you're interested in proposed solution and research about education in Scotland, maybe looking at what the people most affected are saying can be useful. If the problem is people not getting into university then, by definition, people in university aren't the most affected group. Coohoolin posted:Scotland was far more successful at colonialism via the wee frees, they've still got churches kicking about in far corners. Scotland maybe but Scots were involved in a whole lot of British Empire building at all levels.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:50
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forkboy84 posted:
FTFY.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:52
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TomViolence posted:bloody english interfering with our attempts to build a colonial empire They did, but to claim it was "largely" the reason for the Darien scheme ending in disaster (for Scotland) is just....well it doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrunity, let's put it that way. I mean, for someone who's spent 5 years or more talking about Scotland's relationship with Britain, I would've hoped that Coohoolin might at least have a better understanding of the major incident in that history other than what appears to be something summarising a facebook comment summarising a blog post summarising a ranty angry person in a pub. I mean, it's been 5 years, you'd hope that he didn't seriously think that Burns line was the sum total of historical analysis about the reason for the Act of Union....right?
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Feb 4, 2018 23:58
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Well there was the malaria and the general shittiness of the location chosen but that could have been remedied had a specific supply chain not been hosed with, is my understanding. Happily open to reading better analyses, in any case.
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Feb 5, 2018 00:05
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Coohoolin posted:Well there was the malaria and the general shittiness of the location chosen but that could have been remedied had a specific supply chain not been hosed with, is my understanding. It's not that I expect a bibliography or anything, but just a sense that you've looked beyond nationalist-bloggers' historical hot takes would be nice - and ditto for thinking that quoting some spin on "bought and sold for English gold" suffices as an argument. I mean, honestly, even just going "X is largely the reason for [historical event]" is problematic enough in any context and should give you pause for thought, let alone when it's all a counterfactual "if X hadn't happened then Y definitely would have," but here you go: Davidson, Neil, Discovering the Scottish Revolution, 1692-1742 (2003) Walsh, Patrick, 'The Bubble on the Periphary,' The Scottish Historical Review, Volume 91 Issue 1, Page 106-124 (Mar 2012) Watt, Douglas, The Price of Scotland: Darien, Union and the Wealth of Nations (2007) Whyte, Ian D, Scotland Before the Industrial Revolution: An Economic and Social History, c.1050-1750 (1995)
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Feb 5, 2018 00:49
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"If it wasn't for the fuckery of the perfidious sassenach we could have been whipping slaves to death in our Panamanian plantations" is quite possibly my favourite nationalist grievance.
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Feb 5, 2018 01:33
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Niric posted:From the UKMT, but seemed more appropriate here (although possibly not if we're going to merge the threads): Lol, that is pretty amazing. I've changed my mind, keep the thread open so Coohoolin can drop some more knowledge bombs on us about Scottish history and culture. forkboy84 posted:At this point uni tuition should probably be free and supported by a graduate tax in order to ensure there are enough places and staff and all that to meet demand. It's slightly blunt but increasing the higher rate tax bands has broadly the same effect. I just finished paying off my student loan last year (I graduated in 2003) and to be honest if that wasn't a student loan but just a straight 5% tax hike that'd be ok. That would give us a decent chuck of money, remove the cap on places or at least scale it to the number of overseas students, and make universities skew entrance requirements based on the applicants relative poverty. Not sure it would work but that's my idea at least.
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Feb 5, 2018 10:07
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Proving the point that the cause isn't the free tuition/number of places: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42938097 BBC posted:University applications from 18-year-olds who live in the poorest parts of Scotland have fallen for the first time in a decade, according to a new report. The poorest backgrounds aren't applying anymore. This isn't an issue with them being rejected due to lack of places, this is an issue with the quality of their initial education, and of the economy not supporting them to let them go, instead they have financial concerns about their families living standards if they're not bringing in a wage.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:02
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https://twitter.com/NeilFindlay_MSP/status/960457712189497344 If you're in Dundee and a Scottish Labour member then maybe go apply. Applaud them for free entry for unwaged members. Though you'd still have to pay for accommodation.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:47
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mehall posted:The poorest backgrounds aren't applying anymore. It's a bit of both! The entrance requirements have become higher because there are fewer places, so people are not applying because they do not have the required grades. Combine that with the general living costs in our University cites, driven up by demand overseas students in many cases, and you get into the situation we have. We will see if the government does anything about it other than being concerned and thinking about the more work to do.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:58
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Aramoro posted:It's a bit of both! The entrance requirements have become higher because there are fewer places, so people are not applying because they do not have the required grades. Combine that with the general living costs in our University cites, driven up by demand overseas students in many cases, and you get into the situation we have. So you're saying there is too high demand from overseas students.... the ones who pay.... but think charging our kids will help?
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Feb 5, 2018 12:43
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mehall posted:So you're saying there is too high demand from overseas students.... the ones who pay.... but think charging our kids will help? I'm pretty sure I've said this half a dozen times already, sometimes to you directly. I'm not suggesting removing free tuition, can we just put that particular strawman to bed right now? I'm suggesting a 5% tax rise, eased entrance requirements for some and a removal of the places cap.
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Feb 5, 2018 12:56
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Interesting story in the guardian today, although I think the important aspects are being underplayed here. While I'm not mad keen on the idea of deals with the USAF and Trump Turnberry (and agree there's an element of hypocrisy going on), far worse is the massive and continuing losses incurred. The excuse offered that the Scottish government don't involve themselves in business decisions doesn't explain away responsibility for the huge subsidies it's getting: more than twice the original estimate (and counting). It's incompetent, and that needs to be hammered home. Many people who claim not to be snp die hards pivoted remarkably quickly from "snp are the most left wing" to "snp are the most competent," and while i don't expect nationalist activists to ever look beyond voting snp, the narrative really needs to be challenged. Unfortunately, both the politicians quoted (Jackie Baillie, thread heartthrob Patrick Harvie) focus exclusively on the Trump connection, and while that makes an easy headline it obscures the real meat, and is easily dismissed The Guardian posted:Scottish government criticised over US military use of airport
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Feb 7, 2018 18:11
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Niric posted:Interesting story in the guardian today, although I think the important aspects are being underplayed here. While I'm not mad keen on the idea of deals with the USAF and Trump Turnberry (and agree there's an element of hypocrisy going on), far worse is the massive and continuing losses incurred. Government incompetence is sadly par for the course for Governments of all stripes, I mean we did build a Parliament for only 1000% over budget and no one went to jail for that. The narrative that the SNP are competent does need to be challenged, but then that would require an opposition that was competent as well. Like not taking any interest in what the airport is doing but continuing to subsidise it does seem negligent really though.
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Feb 7, 2018 18:35
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I for one am shocked, shocked I tell you, that Ayrshire can't sustain its own international airport.
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Feb 7, 2018 19:05
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Aramoro posted:Government incompetence is sadly par for the course for Governments of all stripes, I mean we did build a Parliament for only 1000% over budget and no one went to jail for that. The narrative that the SNP are competent does need to be challenged, but then that would require an opposition that was competent as well. Like not taking any interest in what the airport is doing but continuing to subsidise it does seem negligent really though. The thing is though, this isn't an infrastructure project akin to the parliament or any number of government IT overruns, and shouldn't be dismissed as the kind of budget sink that always happens. A better comparison would be East Coast (or even RBS and HBOS), since it's an operational sevice provision. The Scottish government said they'd spend £21m to get it back to profitability, but they've spent £48m and it's nowhere near a profit. That's a gently caress up by the responsible department (and ultimately the minister) that's being skated over. This is without even getting into the merits or otherwise of the original decision (3 airports servicing the central belt seems pretty excessive, so I suspect there's some herculean assumptions in any economic impact or viability analyses done). They promised a profitable airport for £21m and didn't deliver, with no prospect of that happening. Their strategic goal and/or their appointments have been poorly managed, and, again, "are good managers" is what people are pushing as the SNP's key strength. With Prestwick, they appear to be chucking money at it in the hope something will change, rather than, say, rethinking the strategy or even winding it down slowly and funding alternative employment. Saying "the opposition are incompetent because they're not good enough at pointing out the government's incompetency, and that's the real story" feels a bit like weak Comment Is Free  tbh, and, likethe Trump angle here, distracts from the thing that's not working.[Edit: I should say that I agree with you about the opposition by the way - which is why I criticised Baillie and Harvie - but just that I think that's sorta missing the point, just as they missed the point] Niric fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 7, 2018 |
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Feb 7, 2018 19:15
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This Twitter thread (from a journalist) on the way ScotGov handles FoI requests is really interesting: https://twitter.com/MrMcEnaney/status/961293175531950081 In summary, there has been (and continues to be) a systematic politicisation of how FoI requests are handled, with SPADs being heavily involved in decision making as a matter of procedure. They have, explicitly, made decisions based on political factors ("what the minister would prefer"), and this is technically illegal under FoI rules. Further, this is effectively a matter of policy, since running everything by SPADs appears to be the system deliberately put in place by the Scottish Government. Just to head of the inevitable whataboutery, yes, I suspect it's very similar at a UK level too, but that's not the point.
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Feb 9, 2018 14:11
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The continuing Brexit fun and games has resurrected this idiocy: https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/961914392261652481 utterly missing the point that the idea of Northern Ireland somehow being a single market special case in the UK is to avoid a hard border and the problems it would bring, whereas doing the same for Scotland would create those very problems here.
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Feb 9, 2018 21:59
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Pissflaps posted:The continuing Brexit fun and games has resurrected this idiocy: It's not missing the point if the deliberate intention is to keep the whole country int he single market.
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Feb 9, 2018 22:01
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mehall posted:It's not missing the point if the deliberate intention is to keep the whole country int he single market. Which it isn't. The SNP give no fucks about England or the UK as a whole. This is Sturgeon positioning herself and the party for UDI in March 2019.
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Feb 14, 2018 09:23
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The SNP doesn’t have the stomach (or support) for UDI - though an attempt at it would be fascinating to see play out.
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Feb 14, 2018 09:34
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