|
I guess Mel Gibson was right, God send the Europeans to destroy those cultures, and for good reason.
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 07:54 |
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:The other snag there is that there were massive plagues wiping out natives before the Europeans even showed up. European diseases obviously didn't help nor did European colonialism and greed but the natives were basically living in their version of a Mad Max world. Social order had broken down something fierce and their numbers had been ravaged by a pretty nasty plague. This is the reality of the situation. The popular conception that Indians in North America had been living in small groups in a vast wilderness since time immemorial, came about only because their ways of life had been significantly altered by disease epidemics prior to most of them having significant contact with Europeans. Modern understanding of Pre-Columbian North America is further complicated by the fact that the most advanced cultures like the Mississippians and OG Puebloans peaked around 1100-1300 AD and had already been in a gradual state of decline by the time smallpox arrived and wiped out almost everyone who was left.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Cortes also had native allies; he didn't do it totally alone. Pretty much everybody that had to live near the Aztecs loving hated them. It wasn't difficult to find allies that wanted to kick the poo poo out of the Aztecs. while i'm a little skeptical of the implication that indigenous diseases were mostly responsible, if that's your intent, since the new world had sparse contact with european settlements in greenland before the age of exploration which can introduce eurasian diseases that europeans themselves would be immune to later, the breakdown of social order before colonists came in force is a big deal, walking into ghost towns w/o significant resistance and being able to exploit the booming, no longer controlled population explosions of local wildlife is gonna make settling in much easier than facing down large groups of organized people in good control of their resources who might not welcome belligerent intrusion it's so big a deal that in more tropical regions with numerous local diseases, diseases that europeans are not immune to, whole swaths of land were designated as completely uncolonizable in spite of the fact that europeans still had the grand civilizations and superior technologies that some would claim were solely responsible for their winning the new world
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 21:49
|
|
|
Not to take sides or anything but Europe had a few indigenous diseases too, like, the plague?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:03
|
|
|
doverhog posted:Not to take sides or anything but Europe had a few indigenous diseases too, like, the plague? That disease was brought over by illegal immigrant rats.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:11
|
|
|
Wasn't there a matter of a small pox or something along those lines?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:11
|
|
|
to be clearer i meant diseases thought to be indigenous to the new world, like (possibly) syphilis, over old world diseases thought to be native to eurasia - i think it's most commonly believed that the most significant epidemics to affect new world populations were eurasian in origin but if there's new information around that's neat too
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
Excuse me. Undocumented rats.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:30
|
|
|
Again I’m not saying native americans were living in perfect prehistoric bliss until the white devil arrived I’m specifically calling out the “they were no angels” crowd, who respond to “huh, Columbus did horrible poo poo, maybe we shouldn’t have a holiday for him?” or “wow, Cahokia was huge, maybe we need to pay more attention to our past” with “ACTUALLY, libtard, native americans loved having wars and often did bad things. Therefore they deserved what they got and they should be thankful we let them live in America!” Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 23:01 on Feb 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 22:59
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Again I’m not saying native americans were living in perfect prehistoric bliss until the white devil arrived How many people actually make that argument about anyone other than the Aztecs?
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2018 23:49
|
|
|
lavaca posted:How many people actually make that argument about anyone other than the Aztecs? Lots of Canadians.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Social order had broken down something fierce and their numbers had been ravaged by a pretty nasty plague. Wait are you saying this happened across literally all of the Americas, or are you referring to some part(s) in particular? If the former please post sources, I've never heard it before. New research? lavaca posted:How many people actually make that argument about anyone other than the Aztecs? A lot, in my personal experience. I am sorry to say. Oh, here is my off-topic PHUO: I don't really like any kind of desserty thing except ice cream, which I can rarely eat because lactose intolerance. Stuff like cakes and cookies are 100% uninteresting to me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
Reading books is cool. Reading J.R.R. Tolkien, or Iain Banks, or Charles Bukowski, makes you cooler than vaping, or being down with the clown, or crointing. Neither of course can compete with the thrill of a fresh butt upon thine face, which ever way you get there. Brie or a similar cheese is good for dessert and has very little lactose.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Telemaze posted:Wait are you saying this happened across literally all of the Americas, or are you referring to some part(s) in particular? If the former please post sources, I've never heard it before. New research? It's pretty recent, yes. Here's a New York Times article from 2002. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/29/science/don-t-blame-columbus-for-all-the-indians-ills.html It's hard to find information on it because a lot of it is kind of nebulous. There aren't good records of it but the short of it is that indigenous American peoples were having all sorts of problems before Columbus was even born. We're talking multiple centuries of decline including a big, horrible plague. I can't find the stuff I had read before but before Columbus rolled up there was something worse than the Black Plague along the way. I think the research is still ongoing but it isn't exactly a popular topic because American education is still racist as gently caress. It goes against the thing we're taught that the natives were a bunch of dirty, uneducated savages who certainly couldn't have done engineering of any level. Ignoring of course that building the Cahokia Mounds would most certainly not have been easy. You can also see interesting things in the accounts of early colonists. They wouldn't shut up about how welcoming the land seemed in that they'd constantly find things like fruit trees growing neatly in rows like it was an orchard put there by God for them to find because nobody else was around! Well the thing of it was there were people around and that's one of the things they left behind. It looked like an orchard because it loving was at one point. Columbus and pals basically just dumped kerosene on a fire that was already burning. The natives were in no state to resist much of anything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 01:29
|
|
|
The Nightly Show was way better than the Daily Show with Trevor Noah
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 05:35
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:The Nightly Show was way better than the Daily Show with Trevor Noah The Nightly Show repeated its jokes way too frequently. Things that were funny once or twice were repeated twice a week for months. And the panel discussions needed either more structure or more time, because as it was there was just about enough time for the participants to start to sort of agree on where the conversation was going but then time was up and they never got anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 05:42
|
|
|
I saw Frank Black during his retirement tour, and he made a kind of funny point about the fact that his humor relied on embellishment and mutual disdain for all politicians, and that he was retiring because satire had become reality and there was no jokes to be made because people couldn't laugh at themselves, which both sides were sliding into. To help illustrate this fact both a Trump supporter and a Hilary supporter got escorted out of the Chicago Theater because they couldn't take a joke. I don't know if that was pre-planned or something, but it's Chicago so you never know.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 05:51
|
|
|
lavaca posted:How many people actually make that argument about anyone other than the Aztecs? The Aztecs were a relatively recent phenomenon in America as well, and they were on a massive expansion trip when the Spanish arrived. Most of their neighbors hated them, which is why some joined forces with the Spanish to defeat them, which they would come to regret later. I've been reading about pre Columbian America and the relationship of modern Americans to that. It's pretty fascinating, especially in Mexico which has a much more positive / identifying view of their pre Columbian forebears. Their flag and the actual name of the country refer directly to the Aztec (Mexica) state after all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 06:01
|
|
|
Unpopular opinion: England, and to an extent, the rest of Europe, is pretty much responsible for all racism in the world at this point. England exported their hate to every country they touched.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 06:13
|
|
|
lavaca posted:How many people actually make that argument about anyone other than the Aztecs? It's not the same continent but in Australia there has been a recent debate about changing the date of Australia Day from January 26th. The problem with this date is that it commemorates the arrival of the First Fleet, which marks the beginning of the British invasion of Australia. The people against the move typically use arguments like that it's actually not an invasion because British and Australian law says so, that it wouldn't actually help the plight of Indingeous people and is just a push by left-wing cultural marxists to destabilise
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 06:16
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:Unpopular opinion: England, and to an extent, the rest of Europe, is pretty much responsible for all racism in the world at this point. England exported their hate to every country they touched. On one had you're correct in that biological racism arose under very specific circumstances and was definitely invented by Europeans or colonials of Euro descent (which is why it generally says white people are best). On the other hand there are certainly racism-like systems in the world that predate European influence, such as the whole Kafir thing in Arabic nations, and the caste system in India. So I guess I'm disagreeing on two points: one, it was colonists rather than Europeans who invented and spread racism, and two, that's not the only source of racism in the world.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 06:26
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:Unpopular opinion: England, and to an extent, the rest of Europe, is pretty much responsible for all racism in the world at this point. England exported their hate to every country they touched. England was terrible, but to single them, or even Europe, out is disingenuous. India, for instance, had a legalized caste system all on their own. South American cultures practiced slavery and human sacrifice. The lesson is, humans are terrible, religion is terrible. doverhog has a new favorite as of 06:31 on Feb 5, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 06:29
|
|
|
Racism came from Africa.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 07:06
|
|
|
Is that a poorly veiled accusation of racism? Goonsir, I am a communist and a mystic, and believe in the absolute equality among all forms of life.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 07:12
|
|
|
Because humans came from Africa?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 07:40
|
|
|
Tell us more about your fixation with Africa. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 07:42
|
|
|
Ask native Koreans what they think of the Chinese. Then what the Chinese think of the Japanese. Then ask them all what they think of the SE Asians. Doesn't matter which country, pick one. Vietnam, Malaysia, India, have at. Asia is crazy, crazy racist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 07:55
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:Unpopular opinion: England, and to an extent, the rest of Europe, is pretty much responsible for all racism in the world at this point. England exported their hate to every country they touched. imho it's more like the special brand of detached, heuristic racism that distinguishes european racism from other kinds practiced in the world was developed more broadly by the scientific/academic communities of days gone by who rallied behind racism, sexism, homophobia, etc in a number of its branches like anthropology, biology, psychology, etc through (speciously) reasoned arguments, (cherry picked) historical evidence, (mis)applications of darwin's and other scientific theories and so on to create a coherent & structured hierarchical model of humanity that could easily be passed off as an objective truth discovered by very clever scholars, it was packed in a way where these ideas could trickle down from the higher institutions into public consciousness pretty easily and be exported to other countries too; it didn't spring out of nothing since people have been articulating their tensions and animosities with one another in terms of perceived race since forever but the thing that distinguishes what europe did was pretensions of empirical fact - it casts a very long shadow given the massive influence european scientists have had on science as a whole and that europe uniquely had the power to act significantly on its own special prejudices at the time
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 08:05
|
|
|
I don't think you can say anyone "invented" racism any more than you can say anyone invented the tendency for humanity to kill each other (unless you take the cain+abel story literally). I mean specific kinds like white nationalism, sure, but not in general. I think in any hypothetical alternate history you can think of, there would still be racism and war and exploitation when the different races started encountering each other regularly. There will always be people who will use certain people's fear of things that are different/foreign and twist it into racism. The goal obviously is to educate/convince everyone that they aren't actually different and are just people with a different culture, but I think you'll never eradicate it entirely.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 08:25
|
|
|
Caufman posted:Excuse me. Undocumented rats. Had they been undocumented, we would not know about them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 08:28
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:poo poo, we're doing it to our own children that'll civilize those savages
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 08:49
|
|
|
yeah I eat rear end posted:I don't think you can say anyone "invented" racism any more than you can say anyone invented the tendency for humanity to kill each other (unless you take the cain+abel story literally). I mean specific kinds like white nationalism, sure, but not in general. I think in any hypothetical alternate history you can think of, there would still be racism and war and exploitation when the different races started encountering each other regularly. There will always be people who will use certain people's fear of things that are different/foreign and twist it into racism. quite specific peeps invented quite specific bits of racism, including the conception of race being a thing in itself tribal hate was a thing, but not racism funny thing about genetics: take a compass and draw a circle 300 miles in radius around a certain point in tanzania. there is more human biodiversity inside the circle than outside
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 09:02
|
|
|
The only reason English brand racism is worse is that they won a bunch of wars and spread it around. If another power had won those wars we'd have different racism, or classicism, or whatever. Racism is bad. The English Empire is bad. White people are racist. Not good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 09:22
|
|
|
Everyone's racist. Racism and bigotry's been a thing all over the world, in every culture and society, since history. People have always had antipathy towards the other, people have always been xenophobic. LOL at ppl actually thinking Europe or "white people" invented that poo poo. Anyway, unpopular opinion #50383883: Nobody owes you anything. And you don't owe anybody anything, either. Nobody owes anybody jack poo poo. Not time, not attention, not love, nothing. Nobody deserves anything, either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 10:18
|
|
|
Blue Star posted:Everyone's racist. Racism and bigotry's been a thing all over the world, in every culture and society, since history. People have always had antipathy towards the other, people have always been xenophobic. LOL at ppl actually thinking Europe or "white people" invented that poo poo. yeah, but for like a half millenium 99% of that antipathy was sectarian. for like 25 years in the middle of the century in large parts of the world it was ideological. so the hate can take very different forms
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 10:36
|
|
|
Blue Star posted:Nobody owes you anything. And you don't owe anybody anything, either. Nobody owes anybody jack poo poo. Not time, not attention, not love, nothing. Nobody deserves anything, either. Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawling in my skiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 13:40
|
|
|
Blue Star posted:Anyway, unpopular opinion #50383883:
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 13:57
|
|
|
Blue Star posted:And you don't owe anybody anything, either. Tell that to Chase and Capital One. I wish philosophical reasons could get me out of paying my bills.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 14:10
|
|
|
European people do racism like this, Asian people do racism like this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 16:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 07:54 |
|
|
My unpopular opinion for the morning: Caffeine addiction is a drug addiction. If you're incapable of interacting with other people or even functioning emotionally until you've had your morning coffee, you are an addict. Replace "coffee" in that sentence with literally any other drug and it'd be grounds for an intervention. I'm not blaming the addict, here. I don't like that the typical working lifestyle necessitates using caffeine as a crutch. It's a problem woven into the fabric of our culture, and it's not okay how rampant and socially acceptable caffeine addiction has become.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2018 16:48
|
|
