[canada] I don't need to take lessons on marginalized people. I'm ITALIAN!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [canada] I don't need to take lessons on marginalized people. I'm ITALIAN!

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infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Stickarts posted:

Nah, still just the post in Can-Pol proper. I guess I'm just trying to empathise and meet halfway/try to understand someone else's perspective and respond to them from there. Getting into the mindset of small business!

Suddenly I feel the urge to cut taxes and gut labour laws.

e. And eat babies.

No, I got ya, it just seemed like there were some actual replies missing.

TBF, I can sympathize in that as a small business owner I'm less concerned with the societal framework that has lead people to be late for work, and more concerned with hiring people I don't think will be late for work. Of course if that manifests itself as a preference against a certain group of people, well, that ain't prejudice, it's just good business...

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:01

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# ? May 24, 2024 00:57

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/960893156328923137

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:28

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Bets on how long it will take before Peterson is completely indistinguishable from a radical imam?

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:31

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

infernal machines posted:

Bets on how long it will take before Peterson is completely indistinguishable from a radical imam?

You could put "Canada will pay for this leftist ideology" on the bottom of a Memri TV screenshot and no one would bat an eye

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:35

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Was gonna add to stickarts/infernal's conversation by saying that hierarchical power must always present itself as natural/necessary, rather than something that was established by decisions that could've been otherwise, and right on cue we have another appearance of The Good Professor Porbo Jeterson.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:39

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Hand Knit posted:

The Good Professor Porbo Jeterson.

i'm stealing this

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:40

Ardent Communist: Oct 17, 2010; ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!

For me, I think it's purely about leadership style, or lack thereof. I recently got promoted (second rung of the ladder, woo!) at a large warehouse, for a delivery company. Somebody else got a similar promotion, and it's funny to me how different our styles are. Whereas myself, of course (see username), puts the people I'm responsible for first, protecting them for undue criticism or assisting them personally when conditions require, his style is much more managerial. "This person is doing this wrong, this person needs to start doing this more," etc. and communicating that up the chain, so that higher management starts cracking down.
But nobody is as dumb as to not realise where the complaints are coming from, so the people on the line have started to resent that. So now people that may have only needed a gentle reminder of their responsibilities, or perhaps a short period of help so they can focus on a separate, more time sensitive responsibility, are finding themselves under greater and greater criticism, and resenting their immediate supervisor for doing more observing them for mistakes than helping them not make them. At a certain point, they may even start internalising that criticism, which causes them to start doubting themselves, and the work falls off even more.
You can either be a leader or a manager, a leader leads from example, and a manager regards their workers as cogs that must be made to fit, and perhaps use the hammer (of disciplinary tools) to fit. I've actually had my supervisor saying that I've been helping too much, that people are going to rely on me and start slacking off, but I disagree. If you work hard, and they see you working hard, they'll appreciate it. If you are unable to help at a certain time because of other responsibilities, they'll be more likely to pick up the slack, not less, because they appreciate your help, they don't want you to get in trouble, and they know that if they make mistakes, it will be communicated to them personally, in a congenial way.
Everybody likes being complimented, especially if it is a result of them trying to work harder. Before they have any chance of getting better, they have to believe they can get better, and if they trust you, they'll listen when you say how they can get better, and when you compliment them on their improvement.

Of course, it's not purely about leadership style, as a marxist I have to look at the material conditions, which are paramount. I'm helped in my style because I will always take the workers side against management, unless it's a behaviour so explicitly and purposely ruinous that I can't do anything to protect them, despite efforts. If they are unable to focus because they are starving, (a scenario I've heard affects young disadvantaged children in school) then that is a material condition that needs to be corrected first, before style comes into it. If boozing is practically the only thing to do, then there should be more productive (or fun!) things to do in that community.
As it results to the topic at hand, shouldn't their supervisors know that they're going to miss work for the pow-wow, or be getting drinks with them after work, after a good day's work, as motivation to show up sober, rather than sneering down their noses at "the others" and showing no ability to emphasize. And yes, even being able to forgive errors is helpful in the long term, since everyone makes mistakes or has bad days.

Lastly, capitalism delenda est.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:43

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

vyelkin posted:

You could put "Canada will pay for this leftist ideology" on the bottom of a Memri TV screenshot and no one would bat an eye

Isn't that true of most Fox News screenshots?

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:44

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

infernal machines posted:

i'm stealing this

wield it with enthusiasm

# ? Feb 6, 2018 17:49

lowly abject turd: Mar 23, 2009

Ardent Communist posted:

For me, I think it's purely about leadership style, or lack thereof. I recently got promoted (second rung of the ladder, woo!) at a large warehouse, for a delivery company. Somebody else got a similar promotion, and it's funny to me how different our styles are. Whereas myself, of course (see username), puts the people I'm responsible for first, protecting them for undue criticism or assisting them personally when conditions require, his style is much more managerial. "This person is doing this wrong, this person needs to start doing this more," etc. and communicating that up the chain, so that higher management starts cracking down.
But nobody is as dumb as to not realise where the complaints are coming from, so the people on the line have started to resent that. So now people that may have only needed a gentle reminder of their responsibilities, or perhaps a short period of help so they can focus on a separate, more time sensitive responsibility, are finding themselves under greater and greater criticism, and resenting their immediate supervisor for doing more observing them for mistakes than helping them not make them. At a certain point, they may even start internalising that criticism, which causes them to start doubting themselves, and the work falls off even more.
You can either be a leader or a manager, a leader leads from example, and a manager regards their workers as cogs that must be made to fit, and perhaps use the hammer (of disciplinary tools) to fit. I've actually had my supervisor saying that I've been helping too much, that people are going to rely on me and start slacking off, but I disagree. If you work hard, and they see you working hard, they'll appreciate it. If you are unable to help at a certain time because of other responsibilities, they'll be more likely to pick up the slack, not less, because they appreciate your help, they don't want you to get in trouble, and they know that if they make mistakes, it will be communicated to them personally, in a congenial way.
Everybody likes being complimented, especially if it is a result of them trying to work harder. Before they have any chance of getting better, they have to believe they can get better, and if they trust you, they'll listen when you say how they can get better, and when you compliment them on their improvement.

Of course, it's not purely about leadership style, as a marxist I have to look at the material conditions, which are paramount. I'm helped in my style because I will always take the workers side against management, unless it's a behaviour so explicitly and purposely ruinous that I can't do anything to protect them, despite efforts. If they are unable to focus because they are starving, (a scenario I've heard affects young disadvantaged children in school) then that is a material condition that needs to be corrected first, before style comes into it. If boozing is practically the only thing to do, then there should be more productive (or fun!) things to do in that community.
As it results to the topic at hand, shouldn't their supervisors know that they're going to miss work for the pow-wow, or be getting drinks with them after work, after a good day's work, as motivation to show up sober, rather than sneering down their noses at "the others" and showing no ability to emphasize. And yes, even being able to forgive errors is helpful in the long term, since everyone makes mistakes or has bad days.

Lastly, capitalism delenda est.

Yeah this jives a lot with my experience. Not knowing pow wow season is coming is like not knowing Christmas is coming and I can't imagine being so detached from the people you work with that you don't know.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 18:09

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

Stickarts posted:

I frame my questions around employment because it is a path out of poverty.

I also have an issue with the way you have framed the conversation. You discuss no solution, and only want to focus on reasons to accept failure. You have looked at the symptoms and illness, great. What are we actually going to do about it?

And yes I want to arm wrestle. I get the realities of FN employment because I work with dozens of FN communities and multiple FN partners. That work results in hundreds of jobs, life skill development, employment training, and millions of dollars being put back into local communities on a yearly basis. I deal with the issues you assume I don�t understand as an actual problem that has to be dealt with, and not just a textbook paragraph to be discussed in class.

Part of my work is fairly easy as success can be attributed to the driven FN communities that are out there. But, after all the employment accommodation, role concessions, and understanding of social / cultural problems someone has to show up for work if they are serious. The people who do show up are usually amazing because they can be the agents of positive change in their community. Sometimes.

I bend over backwards to increase FN employment opportunities. (And not because of some stupid quota, but due to a philosophy on local employment being important.) You mis-interpreted my frankness about challenges as a lack of understanding, when it really is just a blunt comment from someone immersed in the daily reality.

infernal machines posted:

Allow me to demonstrate

Thanks for confirming that you are all talk no action.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 20:30

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

you're in c-spam numnuts and you were specifically responding to a post pointing out how easily canadians gloss over blatant racism in day to day conversation, exclusively when it involves native peoples.

i've only ever worked with FN people in a professional context, where they've been consulting with a government relations firm i also work for.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 20:43

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

you edited my post to accuse me of racism, go gently caress yourself

# ? Feb 6, 2018 20:48

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

i edited your post to demonstrate how that would be considered racism if you asked literally the same question of another group.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 20:50

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

hey man if you think history and culture shouldn�t be taken into consideration that�s your opinion

sounds pretty privileged to me though

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:19

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

I actually thought I have been repeatedly jabbing my finger at a giant blinking neon sign of a solution in two different threads, but I guess it's easier to strawman me about being navel-gazing and all talk no action.

And I'm sincerely glad you're contributing to part of a solution somewhere? Nothing of what you're doing or saying here refutes or contradicts anything I've said. Lack of access to an economy is a real problem with varying degrees of intensity and solvability. But so is potable water. So is extreme isolation. So are unsolved sovereignty issues. So is schooling at 70 cents to the dollar. So is untreated TB and HIV/AIDS. So are the umpteen other things that go into making reserves ~80th in the world on the HDI. A real solution to that takes a sustained (probably generations) and coordinated effort from all parties involved - governments, government programs, NGOs, private ennterprise, and individuals. JOBS doesn't get you anywhere near there on its own.

And dismissing conversations about the historical causes of modern issues as irrelevant is silly.

Stickarts has issued a correction as of 21:31 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:27

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

yo dreylad, have you read The Vimy Trap? I'm thinking of picking it up, and also Warrior Nation? Basically want my next block of reading to be about the historiography of Canadian public history and how that has fit into attempts to shape Canada as a (into a) nation.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:38

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

And wrt to your "frank treatment" or whatever. Fine, but Poe's Law.

Like yea, I also find humour in the fact that in Indig communities terms like Native and Indian are often common, while in academic/political/formal settings you get "Aboriginal" "People of Indigenous Descent" etc., and then on the other side of that you get white "non-PC" communities using the same terms as your average Indig people, but even also using them potentially as slurs.

But I also recognise this is a public internet forum stripped of context that helps me distinguish people's intent. So if I am going to discuss the issue seriously I am going to use formal language. That's my favour to you, my beloved reader.

Stickarts has issued a correction as of 21:44 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:42

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

Hand Knit posted:

Was gonna add to stickarts/infernal's conversation by saying that hierarchical power must always present itself as natural/necessary,

I keep trying to wedge a "Leafs suck" joke in here but I can't quite make it work.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:44

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Stickarts posted:

I keep trying to wedge a "Leafs suck" joke in here but I can't quite make it work.

that's a shame, because you could never say it seriously, because it's the opposite of what's true

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:45

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

Hand Knit posted:

that's a shame, because you could never say it seriously, because it's the opposite of what's true

4 of the 5 goalies who played for your last cup winner are now dead.

Thank God for Gary Smith's 7 GAA that year.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:56

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Hand Knit posted:

yo dreylad, have you read The Vimy Trap? I'm thinking of picking it up, and also Warrior Nation? Basically want my next block of reading to be about the historiography of Canadian public history and how that has fit into attempts to shape Canada as a (into a) nation.

I've read Warrior Nation but not the Vimy Trap. I'd throw in An Incovenient Indian in there too just to mix it up.

Stickarts posted:

4 of the 5 goalies who played for your last cup winner are now dead.

Thank God for Gary Smith's 7 GAA that year.

maybe also critically re-read "Le chandail de hockey" as well.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 22:01 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 21:58

Reince Penis: Nov 15, 2007; by R. Guyovich

cougar cub posted:

hey man if you think history and culture shouldn�t be taken into consideration that�s your opinion

sounds pretty privileged to me though

Hey simmer down snowflake

if you can't stand the heat stay out of C-SPAM

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:01

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Dreylad posted:

I've read Warrior Nation but not the Vimy Trap. I'd throw in An Incovenient Indian in there too just to mix it up.

maybe also critically re-read "Le chandail de hockey" as well.

The Thomas King book? Already read it twice (not counting however many read- and listen-throughs of The Truth About Stories) :coal:

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:02

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Stickarts posted:

4 of the 5 goalies who played for your last cup winner are now dead.

Thank God for Gary Smith's 7 GAA that year.

better to have the last one dead than the next one not yet be born

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:03

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

Dreylad posted:

maybe also critically re-read "Le chandail de hockey" as well.

Pff, that's like fourth at best behind Log Driver's Waltz, The Cat Came Back, and Black Fly. Get your poo poo together.

e.

Hand Knit posted:

better to have the last one dead than the next one not yet be born

This took me a moment but I am now insulted.

Stickarts has issued a correction as of 22:11 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:04

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

Reince Penis posted:

Hey simmer down snowflake

if you can't stand the heat stay out of C-SPAM

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:11

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Hand Knit posted:

The Thomas King book? Already read it twice (not counting however many read- and listen-throughs of The Truth About Stories)

Cool! I'm just trying to think of a non-Ian McKay book that might be useful. It's funny, when I started out with Canadian history McKay seemed like such a weirdo for talking about liberal order of rule and all this focus on liberalism and isn't he a Marxist what kind of weird political nonsense is he going on about

and now, in 2018, I get what he was working on more than ever.

Point is I guess I should read the Vimy Trap. I'm out of academia so I needed like a year and a half break from reading stuff.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 22:20 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:15

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

I'm in like the opposite situation, where on top of my core work I'm trying to keep two reading groups running, so I'm trying to read more outside of that to try keep me sane and/or tethered to reality.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:27

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Yeah, and conversely that's why I read fiction when I was working on my degree. Makes sense, and hey Can history is a lot more interesting as a field than it used to be.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 22:38 on Feb 6, 2018

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:29

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

The Winnipeg Jets are Canada's best hockey team right now, gently caress y'all

we are the worlds arm dealers hurrah canada

https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/960951967207120896

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:43

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

conflict free attack helicopters

# ? Feb 6, 2018 22:46

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

my prediction is canada's next big overseas deal is to sell medical scalpels to the prc so they can more efficiently remove falun gong kidneys

# ? Feb 6, 2018 23:15

juche avocado: Dec 23, 2009

i went to google news and saw visions of an america that might've been

lol peoplekindgate

the bbc posted:

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is facing a backlash for correcting a woman who used the term "mankind".

During a town hall event last week, Mr Trudeau interrupted the young woman and urged her to say "peoplekind" instead.

The clip of the interaction has been making the rounds online with critics accusing Mr Trudeau of "mansplaining" and making up words.

Conservative commentators overseas have also picked up on the interaction.

lol

# ? Feb 6, 2018 23:38

juche avocado: Dec 23, 2009

torn between thinking he's a goober and :discourse:

at the criticism of "'mansplaining' and making up words" as written

# ? Feb 6, 2018 23:40

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

He is a goober, and this is 100% on-brand nonsense from him. Welcome to Canada.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 23:46

Isizzlehorn: Feb 25, 2010

Accused of 'mansplaining' someone to use 'personkind' instead of 'mankind'.

Just lol forever at that sentence. 2018 rules.

# ? Feb 6, 2018 23:55

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.