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the truth posted:Is the story really that bad? I skipped 12 and 13 because of bad word of mouth, but I have been tempted to pick up both of them on sale. For ff12, all the interesting stuff happens offscreen or to people not in your party. For ff13, you should probably read the datalog to get the full picture as you may be confused without it. At least ff13 has good gameplay and a few good songs to carry it.
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Feb 11, 2018 10:34
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FF13 is one of the most maddeningly uneven games I've ever played. There are certain elements that are done very well, some very poorly, and they're all bound up with each other. It's not a bad game but it has a lot of structural problems that you'll find yourself wanting to fix while you play it. As a setup for Lightning Returns however, it is excellent.
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Feb 11, 2018 10:38
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I remember enjoying the way XII told its story tbf (also I didn't finish it, tbf!!) but it was really badly paced imo. Like in terms of gameplay vs story it felt really off balance compared to FF games before it. But idk it could have gotten more story heavy in the back half and I didn't see it.
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Feb 11, 2018 10:39
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I love Lightning. I never finished XIII or played XIII-2 or LR. But I love Lightning. W-was this Toriyama's plan????
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Feb 11, 2018 10:40
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esperterra posted:I remember enjoying the way XII told its story tbf (also I didn't finish it, tbf!!) but it was really badly paced imo. Like in terms of gameplay vs story it felt really off balance compared to FF games before it. But idk it could have gotten more story heavy in the back half and I didn't see it. It's middle part? Like after the Leviathan until... Archades? Is really like... emptyish. I think the biggest example of cut content is, the Nethicite goes boom, we cut to Ashe and Vaan picking it up in Nabudis, and then Nabudis never plays into the game again except for optional content.
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Feb 11, 2018 10:50
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I've only gotten as far as a mystical plot sword is gained. But so far FF12 seems to be about domestic terrorists and pirates searching for wmds to overthrow a government that's already destroying itself. Not for the good of the people, but for restoration of the monarchy and personal revenge.
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Feb 11, 2018 10:52
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a crisp refreshing Moxie posted:Besides, everyone knows FF12 is Star Wars, so your important characters are obviously Vaan (Luke), Ashe (Leia), and Balthier (Han). Penelo (C-3P0)
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Feb 11, 2018 11:10
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exquisite tea posted:FF13 is one of the most maddeningly uneven games I've ever played. There are certain elements that are done very well, some very poorly, and they're all bound up with each other. It's not a bad game but it has a lot of structural problems that you'll find yourself wanting to fix while you play it. When I played it, I always thought ff13 was a bad game with good ideas. By the sounds of it, the fixed a lot of the gameplay flaws in the seqeuels, while completely changing the story in weird ways.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:23
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I've never played XIII-2, I just skipped right to Lightning Returns and it barely matters because the plot is batshit. I mean this in the most favorable way possible.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:25
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Avalerion posted:I don't think there's much if any hate for Penelo and she's even less relevant, so it feels like it's really more about the character himself being annoying than his role in the plot. To be fair, Penelo also isn't the 'main character'. She's entirely unimportant and has nothing to do in the plot basically but she's also not supposed to be the main character. (And its all in large part to having her plots surgically excised from the game) Vaan is the main character and may as well not be there half the time. Squall may be an rear end in a top hat who mostly just thinks to himself but he does think to himself or comment on most of the things in the game. Tidus has a punchable face and an annoying forced laugh but he comments on EVERYTHING(annoyingly) and is almost solely responsible for the plot going the way it does(Auron PROBABLY could have achieved the same things as him but he'd have to get off his rear end to do so.). Zidane is pretty much the only binding force of the entire party(sans Quina) and his decisions to help people is what saves the world basically. Vaan....does things but then now and again he just kinds fades away because he has nothing to say, and nothing to contribute to the plot anymore until his next scene with Ashe comes around. Add on that I thought he looked stupid and was incredibly annoying(I'm Captain Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca!) and my reasons for hating him are clear and I entirely understand anyone who wants him excised entirely from the game. I hear he at least gets better in the game after it though and he DOES have a better outfit then.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:34
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all vaan needed to be accepted by the masses ... was a shirt !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Feb 11, 2018 11:36
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lobster22221 posted:When I played it, I always thought ff13 was a bad game with good ideas. By the sounds of it, the fixed a lot of the gameplay flaws in the seqeuels, while completely changing the story in weird ways. A lot of the ideas were there, they just didn't see fit to tell us much about them. I'm never going to forgive XIII for the main story telling us plainly there was a God who made humans and fal'Cie and that was the end of it. Simple, right? Well it turns out that God wasn't God, it was Lindzei. Who the gently caress is Lindzei? He's the creation of the actual God who isn't really God because his mom existed before him or something. Also Lindzei only technically made humans, it was Etro who really made them with her blood or something but Lindzei was maybe involved so it doesn't totally render everything Cid told us false. They had this elaborate mythology in the background of XIII that really doesn't matter at all except it does because Etro is the one who saves the heroes at the end and apparently she's the one who sent the Eidolons to them, too. But gently caress if I would have ever known that, I thought Cid was the one explaining the cosmology to us because he correctly outlines the entire motivation and scheme of XIII's Big Bad. But he's pretty off to such a huge extent that this entire cutscene misrepresents everything about the FNC mythos. This was all done so badly that Square had to make a special trailer thing to explain the mythology to coincide with XIII-2 being released because XIII-2 deals intimately with everything I just discussed but XIII-1 totally failed to convey any of this like I also noted.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:36
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I cant really hate Vaan because how intentional they tried to make people hate/not give a poo poo about him, it was petty as hell. Also because him running around the streets like a whino yelling BASCH LIVES was great.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:41
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NikkolasKing posted:A lot of the ideas were there, they just didn't see fit to tell us much about them. I don't even know how address how weird that is, so I am just going to assume the ff13 writings were on something and move on. I was mostly refering to what I remember of the gameplay. I liked the party autonomy, and the ability to queue up abilities. The paradigm system letting you switch you're entire party's setup was great. The ability to instantly die if your party leader dies was a huge dealbreaker to me, as well as the linearity of the crystalrium(for each class) They might as well have done level ups automatically. lobster22221 fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 11:55
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I didn't like the crystarium much but one thing I think it did right is make each characters class still be distinct for each character. I don't really remember any other game doing that with classes (maybe x-2 with some of the special classes?)
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Feb 11, 2018 12:04
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Bruceski posted:FF12's biggest issue is that the "main character" and his sidekick are tangential to the plot and just tagging along. It's really Ashe, Basch, and Balthier's story. I've said it before, but Vaan's a bit of a jarring protagonist that causes opinions like this, because he's an entirely different kind of hero than what we're used to from the series, especially the later installments. And indeed, separate from the rest of XII's core cast (excluding Penelo, who really is irrelevant). The rest of the cast are important because of who they are in relation to the world. They all have connections to the Empire, the kingdom of Rabanastre, and/or each other, and their story unfolds as a result of those connections. This puts them in the same crowd as the casts of XIII, XV, IV, most of VII, and so on. Vaan's different, though, because what's important and what makes him integral to the story is what he does. He has a place in the world, sure, but it's almost incidental, and is far secondary in his importance to the story to his actual deeds. In this thread the most well-known and clear comparison is Bartz, but there's others in that crowd among Final Fantasy parties: a good chunk of VI's party (but most clearly Locke), the core parties of II and the IIImake, Thancred and (especially) Y'shtola, debatably Wakka, and so on. It's an approach that's fallen out of favor in the series for protagonists, and I think that's because as the actual stories being told become more important, you really want your protagonist to have a central stake in the story you're telling and just being 'some dude who's willing to do what needs doing' doesn't cut it, they've gotta have some sort of history. It's likely the same reason that, over in western gaming, we saw Fallout 4 explicitly cast the player character as a parent looking for their son; it gives the character an established reason to be part of this story. Vaan actually shows that this isn't really necessary in Final Fantasy, you can still tell a compelling story where your protagonist's history isn't important, but at the same time XII gives us a pretty good example of what happens if you do that wrong with Penelo. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 12:04
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I like Penelo because I like dancers and she has good outfits. Also it's hilariously improbable to have some teenage orphan dancer using giant spears and fighting Espers and freezing time with her dances, but there she is.
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Feb 11, 2018 12:11
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Cleretic posted:I've said it before, but Vaan's a bit of a jarring protagonist that causes opinions like this, because he's an entirely different kind of hero than what we're used to from the series, especially the later installments. And indeed, separate from the rest of XII's core cast (excluding Penelo, who really is irrelevant). Because I can apparently not escape having to write paragraphs about Vaan... He is also a protagonist who completes his story-arc, or rather, his more apparent story-arc, by basically the first third of the game. Vaan actually has 3 story arcs. But since it's not one long-running narrative, people tend to not remember them. The first is the most apparent because it's in the best-paced part of the game, it's Vaan's desire for revenge, his hatred against Basch and the Empire. It is this part of his character that causes the Occuria to select him as a candidate for "Tool of History" in short, if he'd continued down the road he was on, he'd likely be their choice for Dynas-King. I love how they use the 'obvious romantic set up' of having Ashe literally leap into his arms from above and then subvert that by only really making them friends. Anyway, Vaan learns that Basch didn't kill his brother and like many things he's got an incorrect mindset about it. This starts his road to concluding that revenge is pointless and has no purpose in his life, the next bit from that is DIRECTLY into the next story beat. Penelo is kidnapped by B'gammnan and Vaan goes to Balthier and blatantly tells him "Just take me, and I'll do it myself." As well as offering the stone. Side note, for all the people who are unsure of Balthier's character arc at this point it's not, "Protagonist" it's "I really don't want anything to do with what the gently caress is going on." He is being roped into this by Vaan. Anyway things happen, and by the end of Raithwall's tomb, leading into Jahara, Vaan's transition from Arc 1 to 2. namely "I don't really care all that much about revenge anymore... but... that defined me, what do I do with my life? What's my purpose?" His talk with Ashe is all about that, and Balthier and others had raised the question before, Why is he here, and that wasn't a dig at his character, it was important to his character. He tells Ashe that he believes staying at her side, he'll find the answers to his questions. He also mentions something key. All that earlier talk about Sky Pirates? He didn't actually believe any of that, it just kept his mind off the crushing reality that was "You are a single person against an endless empire who is all alone and will likely die if you try anything. You aren't sticking it to the man you're just a nobody." That's important for Arc 3. His purpose is pretty clear during Arc-2 that is, he's Ashe's positive influence, he makes a lot more actions in key situations like the Djute Village where, notably, at this point, upon having let go of his desire for revenge and hatred, he's stopped seeing the Occuria's visions, he's no longer a candidate in their mind to steer history, since he lacks the rage to commit genocide they want from him (Ashe is still there). Every moment at this point is him pushing Ashe away from the Nethicite, telling her how Larsa's a good person, recommending they destroy the nethicite they have, generally pushing her further from the dark path the Occuria have her on. Arc-3 leads in from Arc-2, "Finding a purpose." This is where he's come into his own as a directive force, Balthier is starting to teach him how to fly the Strahl (A running theme in the game of Vaan not being allowed to fly the airships they're on) Reddas directly calling him Balthier's protege... to be honest, I think this is bad. I'd have much preferred he follow in Reks footsteps and be a Knight (likely replacing Basch who has to pretend to be Gabranth) since he expressed how he had no desire to be a Sky Pirate earlier... But this game went through 3 directors and developer hell, so the fact he has character arcs at all is likely magical. As for Penelo, as I previously mentioned, basically all her stuff got the cut and was mostly used for Revenant Wings, things like her soldier siblings and the like. There's also some stuff that hints that Kytes and Filio, who are full characters in RW, were meant to play a bigger roll in FFXII. In short, consider FFXII to be "All the poo poo we scraped off the cutting room floor."
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Feb 11, 2018 12:43
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DoubleCakes posted:FF9 is my favourite cast aesthetically and I wish Final Fantasy got back to that I wish I could say the same. I've had a really hard time getting into FFIX because of the character designs, the weird cone heads and squashed faces just really creep me out, viscerally. 
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Feb 11, 2018 13:14
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mandatory lesbian posted:I didn't like the crystarium much but one thing I think it did right is make each characters class still be distinct for each character. I don't really remember any other game doing that with classes (maybe x-2 with some of the special classes?) That's a fantastic idea, like FF5 where each character has unique spells or their abilities do slightly different things depending on who's doing them. Like with White Mage, Lenna would have more powerful healing, Galuf more potent buffs, Bartz could have multitarget Raise/Esuna/etc., and Faris could have higher chances of landing debuffs. Or take something like GilToss. One character could spend significantly more for significantly more damage, while another character can only choose a single target, which you might want for certain fights. Of course it'd also likely be time consuming to nail all the differences and have them all balanced in a game where it's already pretty difficult to properly balance ~20 jobs around each other. But it'd make choosing jobs for specific characters that much more interesting.
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Feb 11, 2018 14:20
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The cool thing about job systems is letting any character do anything, I feel like having unique quirks kinda goes against that.
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Feb 11, 2018 14:45
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If somebody hired me as an Engineer I'd do it for the paycheck but that doesn't mean I'd be any good in that role, given my prior training and background.
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Feb 11, 2018 14:48
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I will defend FF13s combat and leveling to the end but the rest of the game is an abysmal mix of systems. FF12 is perfectly fine game to play while watching a movie.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:25
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If they revamped FFVIII I'd like them to actually give the characters more individuality beyond their Limits. It'd require an almost complete overhaul of the system, but something like 'certain equipped GF combinations grant unique abilities to each character' or something. Like Shiva gives Squall Blizzard Strike while having both Alexander and Bahamut gives Rinoa Ultima.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:28
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exquisite tea posted:If somebody hired me as an Engineer I'd do it for the paycheck but that doesn't mean I'd be any good in that role, given my prior training and background. I believe in you 
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Feb 11, 2018 15:34
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esperterra posted:all vaan needed to be accepted by the masses ... was a shirt !!!!!!!!!!!! fluffy shirt vaan is pretty loving high power level imo Also, I just can't forgive FF13. I find the interactions between the characters tedious and the level design breathtaking in its mundanity. Lightning feels like the writers making a character based on the way fans misremember Cloud, and even if Hope has a good reason for being annoying and whiny he's still unbearably annoying and whiny. It's been over a decade later and I still get Actually Mad when I think about chapter ten, wherein the characters get teleported off an airship into a sewer level and they huddle up and basically say "Where are we?" "idk lol i think this is a filler chapter" followed by two hours of what amounts to the Library from Halo 1.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:35
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NikkolasKing posted:But gently caress if I would have ever known that, I thought Cid was the one explaining the cosmology to us because he correctly outlines the entire motivation and scheme of XIII's Big Bad. But he's pretty off to such a huge extent that this entire cutscene misrepresents everything about the FNC mythos. This is overstating it, because there are multiple makers that get referenced by different sources. It's messy and bad still and they should've kept their terms consistent (like referring to Etro mostly as "the goddess"), but it doesn't misrepresent everything about the mythos, it just scratches the surface of it. Your Computer posted:The cool thing about job systems is letting any character do anything, I feel like having unique quirks kinda goes against that. 1. 13 roles and paradigm setups aren't really the same as jobs from the other game systems with jobs when you take into account how they work with the chain system 2. You can still use the other characters in those roles. I used Hope as a sentinel and sab and got by fine, even though imo he sucks in those roles. Characters being unique throws another layer of complexity in forming teams which is actually fun when it isn't a definingly huge difference (which it isn't here).
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Feb 11, 2018 15:39
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Chillgamesh posted:It's been over a decade later and I still get Actually Mad when I think about chapter ten, wherein the characters get teleported off an airship into a sewer level and they huddle up and basically say "Where are we?" "idk lol i think this is a filler chapter" followed by two hours of what amounts to the Library from Halo 1. Chapter 10 is actually pretty cool, because they just got dropped a huge bombshell that they've been destined and lead around specifically to destroy cocoon, and the chapter has a bunch of little dialogue/character interaction of each of the party members trying to make sense of what's going on. They're all depressed and it's great. The thing I didn't like though was the ship that happened to be there that just let them go to Pulse, but then again the whole story is magically being transported to where they need to be because of Bart's planning.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:42
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Matsuno bursts into Final Fantasy headquarters, circa 2005. Production on Final Fantasy Twelve has stalled due to creative and productive differences. Hironobu "Big Boss" Sakaguchi stands before the development team, his 200 iq brain quickly computing the usefulness of each individual employee to decide whose head shall roll and who shall be thrust up against the firing squad wall. Matsuno prostrates himself before his video game shogun as a supplicant daimyo, as is the way of early 2000's Japanese game heads when talking to a superior. "Sir I would like to report that Vaan is actually the main character, and a core driver of the plot." Matsuno is never seen in that loving company again. EDIT: "B-b-but Sakaguchi had already left to form Mistwalker!!!!" Buddy I don't give a gently caress.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:54
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Perhaps the real Captain Basch fon Ronsenberg of Dalmasca was the friends we made along the way
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Feb 11, 2018 17:11
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esperterra posted:all vaan needed to be accepted by the masses ... was a shirt !!!!!!!!!!!! You’re not wrong
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Feb 11, 2018 18:25
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Penelo is pretty fuckin pointless though, and no matter who the protagonist was in 12 it'd still have endless boring dungeons
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Feb 11, 2018 18:30
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My take has always been that Vaan and Penelo should've been one character - Reks's orphan sister, who has Vaan's vengeance-drive and Penelo's (Revenant Wings introduced?) fear of flight - and then the sixth character should've been some kind of male non-human. The obvious existing characters are Montblanc (who could've gotten into the stuff about moogles basically being an endangered species) or Ba'gamnan (who would've been the antihero and maybe had a Kain or Cait Sith-esque betrayal arc), but they could've created another character with their own thing too. I do think there were things FF12's script did well as-is, too. Balthier and Fran are one of my favorite Final Fantasy couples, because their relationship is established before the beginning of the game and the game doesn't dwell on it at all. It's the kind of thing a really dense or naive player might not even pick up on, but they obviously care very deeply for one another. It felt a little more... mature? than love in FF games usually is.
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Feb 11, 2018 19:00
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I'm really enjoying playing FF12 again, but it's also making me wish I'd just bought FFX/X-2. I miss X-2's awesome dressspheres. And X's Blitzball.
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Feb 11, 2018 19:03
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FF12 owns because right off the bat it's like "here's scantily clad men, the only scantily clad women are weird berserking bunny people"
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Feb 11, 2018 19:48
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Did you look at like literally any female NPCs or, ya know, Asche?
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Feb 11, 2018 19:52
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I think that hot pink miniskirt might be the most egregious fashion offense in the game. I actually like a lot of the fashion/armor design work in it more than most people.
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Feb 11, 2018 19:59
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Onmi posted:Because I can apparently not escape having to write paragraphs about Vaan... Yes, but have you also considered that he is also a protagonist who completes his story-arc, or rather, his more apparent story-arc, by basically the first third of the game. Vaan actually has 3 story arcs. But since it's not one long-running narrative, people tend to not remember them. The first is the most apparent because it's in the best-paced part of the game, it's Vaan's desire for revenge, his hatred against Basch and the Empire. It is this part of his character that causes the Occuria to select him as a candidate for "Tool of History" in short, if he'd continued down the road he was on, he'd likely be their choice for Dynas-King. I love how they use the 'obvious romantic set up' of having Ashe literally leap into his arms from above and then subvert that by only really making them friends. Anyway, Vaan learns that Basch didn't kill his brother and like many things he's got an incorrect mindset about it. This starts his road to concluding that revenge is pointless and has no purpose in his life, the next bit from that is DIRECTLY into the next story beat. Penelo is kidnapped by B'gammnan and Vaan goes to Balthier and blatantly tells him "Just take me, and I'll do it myself." As well as offering the stone. Side note, for all the people who are unsure of Balthier's character arc at this point it's not, "Protagonist" it's "I really don't want anything to do with what the gently caress is going on." He is being roped into this by Vaan. Anyway things happen, and by the end of Raithwall's tomb, leading into Jahara, Vaan's transition from Arc 1 to 2. namely "I don't really care all that much about revenge anymore... but... that defined me, what do I do with my life? What's my purpose?" His talk with Ashe is all about that, and Balthier and others had raised the question before, Why is he here, and that wasn't a dig at his character, it was important to his character. He tells Ashe that he believes staying at her side, he'll find the answers to his questions. He also mentions something key. All that earlier talk about Sky Pirates? He didn't actually believe any of that, it just kept his mind off the crushing reality that was "You are a single person against an endless empire who is all alone and will likely die if you try anything. You aren't sticking it to the man you're just a nobody." That's important for Arc 3. His purpose is pretty clear during Arc-2 that is, he's Ashe's positive influence, he makes a lot more actions in key situations like the Djute Village where, notably, at this point, upon having let go of his desire for revenge and hatred, he's stopped seeing the Occuria's visions, he's no longer a candidate in their mind to steer history, since he lacks the rage to commit genocide they want from him (Ashe is still there). Every moment at this point is him pushing Ashe away from the Nethicite, telling her how Larsa's a good person, recommending they destroy the nethicite they have, generally pushing her further from the dark path the Occuria have her on. Arc-3 leads in from Arc-2, "Finding a purpose." This is where he's come into his own as a directive force, Balthier is starting to teach him how to fly the Strahl (A running theme in the game of Vaan not being allowed to fly the airships they're on) Reddas directly calling him Balthier's protege... to be honest, I think this is bad. I'd have much preferred he follow in Reks footsteps and be a Knight (likely replacing Basch who has to pretend to be Gabranth) since he expressed how he had no desire to be a Sky Pirate earlier... But this game went through 3 directors and developer hell, so the fact he has character arcs at all is likely magical. As for Penelo, as I previously mentioned, basically all her stuff got the cut and was mostly used for Revenant Wings, things like her soldier siblings and the like. There's also some stuff that hints that Kytes and Filio, who are full characters in RW, were meant to play a bigger roll in FFXII. In short, consider FFXII to be "All the poo poo we scraped off the cutting room floor."
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Feb 11, 2018 20:00
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FF12 is my kind of brainless. Finding the ideal Gambit set up is pretty rewarding.
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Feb 11, 2018 20:03
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| # ? May 24, 2024 13:52 |
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Sir this is a Migelo's Drivethru
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Feb 11, 2018 20:03
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