|
OwlFancier posted:I remain absolutely unable to care what happens to the fucker as long as it involves him not being around anybody else for the rest of his life, however long or short that might be. i don’t say this out of empathy for him, thanks justice is not prison rape
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 01:28 |
|
|
What on earth is justice in this case? What possible justice can anyone offer? He's an unrepentant piece of poo poo who has committed grievous crimes on a mass scale, and the only thing anyone can do is to get rid of him in the most expedient fashion possible and set the absolute most severe example for anyone else like him. Lock him up and throw away the key, shoot him, hang him draw him and quarter him I don't give a poo poo, it makes gently caress all difference, none of it will be justice. Put him out of society in whatever fashion you like, and find out who else is responsible and where else this is happening. There is plenty that can be done that is productive but none of it involves him at this point.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:28
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:What on earth is justice in this case? What possible justice can anyone offer? He's an unrepentant piece of poo poo who has committed grievous crimes on a mass scale, and the only thing anyone can do is to get rid of him in the most expedient fashion possible and set the absolute most severe example for anyone else like him. Lock him up and throw away the key, shoot him, hang him draw him and quarter him I don't give a poo poo, it makes gently caress all difference, none of it will be justice. hm, nope, torture and the death penalty are bad, and “serving as an example” has been disproven empirically justice is locking this guy away for the rest of his life justice is not: rape, torture, death you don’t fight rape with rape
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:31
|
|
|
can’t believe I have to say “prison rape is bad” in the sexual abuse thread
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:31
|
|
|
In his case you don't fight it with sentencing at all. Sure, I can, if I stretch, imagine that maybe there are people wandering around who are just too loving dumb to realise it's wrong and reeducation might stop them doing it again, maybe even make a productive, non raping person out of them. We can dream, but in this instance I fail to see what the hell difference his sentencing makes other than getting him out of a position where he can keep doing it? I just don't see why anyone should care about what happens to him beyond that? What difference will it make? If it makes you feel good about yourself sure put him in a nice place, whatever, it won't make a blind bit of difference. Personally if he'd done this poo poo to me I'd want blood, and that wouldn't be justice either but I'd feel better as a result. And I don't think the life of someone who has molested hundreds of children matters enough to care whether it's given. Many crimes it does matter, not this one, the world will not suffer from systemic problems if we stopped caring about the welfare of people who molest hundreds of children. If locking him up is justice then the word justice is a joke. There is simply no way he can repay what he's taken from people, no way you can make this fair or right, there is no justice in this case. Even if you found out everyone responsible for this and the doubtless many other similar cases as yet unheard, and locked every last one of them up, tore down the institutions, cursed their memory and salted the earth, you could not make this right, only stop it happening again. That's no reason not to do it anyway, but calling it justice is foul. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:34
|
|
|
Don't be stupid, justice is a fake concept cooked up to pacify simple people who don't understand that the universe is just a big jumble of chemicals flying around that sometimes get organized in weird ways that end up making people. The guy gets locked up forever because it's the smartest and healthiest thing to do for society. Nobody would ever feel bad if the guy died or got raped or whatever but that's a stupid way to fantasize about running a society. This childish anger and malice is not productive and has no place in criminal justice.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:18
|
|
|
I think I disagree with possibly 100% of that post. Justice is absolutely a thing that can exist in many cases and we should aspire to it, and babby's first existentialism is not an excuse to the contrary. But there are also instances where it is wholly beyond any human power to achieve and this is an example of it. I think this bastard has done enough harm and is so far beyond atoning for it that I'd be more than happy to just ask the people who testified against him what would help them get on with their lives and have that be his sentence, that way his worthless life can do something useful at least. I'd also suggest that given what this case indicates, the magnitude of exploitation it suggest is rife in our society, that it, if nothing else already has, should inspire absolute hatred in onlookers for the institutions and people that facilitate this kind of thing. This case suggests absolutely staggering amounts of abuse and exploitation is occuring constantly. If people get angry about capitalism and poo poo ruining lives then they should be just as loving furious about this. That anger is not childish, it's a very appropriate response to seeing and understanding the magnitude of the wrongs being done by the society we live in, the society we're forced to be complicit with for as long as it keeps doing this to people. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:30
|
|
|
You can't argue that punishment rape is justice "in this instance" with any integrity. If you start justifying rape as a just way of punishing criminals it won't be Nassar who's the victim, it will be all of society when down the line the same punishment is meted out because somebody felt "in this instance" was justified a million different times. You're encouraging barbaric behaviour to flourish as a normal part of justice and society and that has horrific implications for everyone.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 09:05
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:In his case you don't fight it with sentencing at all. Sure, I can, if I stretch, imagine that maybe there are people wandering around who are just too loving dumb to realise it's wrong and reeducation might stop them doing it again, maybe even make a productive, non raping person out of them. We can dream, but in this instance I fail to see what the hell difference his sentencing makes other than getting him out of a position where he can keep doing it? you have really stupid opinions
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 11:14
|
|
|
Pivotal Lever posted:Yes, if we smash capitalism, power imbalances will cease to exist, along with greed and envy and so on. Let's do it. I think the point isn't that if we smash capitalism, all injustices will and power imbalances will suddenly cease to exist (though there are for sure some people who think that, which I think is a kind of unrealistically messianic view of socialism/anarchism/whatever). It's more that capitalism creates and perpetuates and incentivizes power imbalances and greed and sociopathic/exploitative behaviors. Those things would still exist without capitalism, but capitalism has them baked into the foundation of its existence, so any efforts to dismantle them under capitalism will encounter much more resistance than otherwise, and will most probably be doomed to failure or have those efforts corrupted or negated in some way in the future. That isn't to say that progress can't be made here and now, though, just that it's much much more difficult to achieve (and maintain) under a system that actively incentivizes and rewards exploitative behavior and institutional structures based on such.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 12:51
|
|
|
Nevvy Z posted:"I understand why people cover up the terrible things they do but I think that woman's anger at a child molestor was unprofessional." OwlFancier posted:I mean personally I find it more disturbing when people cover up literally hundreds of incidences of child molestation than when dave doesn't tell his boss he saw bob stealing paperclips. Caricature is the internet retard's favourite discussion tactic so of course D&D would be filled with it. In the big case we've got here some responsibility is being laid at the feet of John Geddert, one of Nassar's colleagues. Several of the victims feel that the impunity surrounding Geddert's bullying behaviour made it harder them to trust (rightly) that anything would be done if they complained about Nassar. Geddert's abusive management style is a much less serious offence than Nassar's sex abuse, but it at least indirectly contributed to it by setting the tone (and some say he actively knew about Nassar and he might also be subject to criminal charges on top of that). And the reasons for why the university allowed Nassar to get away with it for so long are probably the identical reasons for why they had no interest in curbing Geddert's excesses, too. Because at MSU, the program matters more than individual's wellbeing, the ends justify the means and victims who complain are the problem. All you have to do is replace "for the glory of the athletics program" with "for the glory of anime communism" and it turns out MSU has a not dissimilar attitude to many D&D posters, which is why this is nonsense: LeJackal posted:A capitalist matriarchy would be as sexually abuse ridden, and an sexually egalitarian capitalist system would likewise be full of abuse. Because similar scenarios have occurred in socialist groups too, such as this one in Britain: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/comrades-war-decline-and-fall-socialist-workers-party (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 13:28
|
|
|
Mukip posted:Caricature is the internet retard's favourite discussion tactic so of course D&D would be filled with it. This would, of course, be where the resident D&D anarchists start talking about ‘state capitalism’, government entities that operate like corporate monopolies.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 13:54
|
|
|
Mukip posted:Caricature is the internet retard's favourite discussion tactic so of course D&D would be filled with it. Thanks for being ableist for no reason, jerk.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 14:08
|
|
|
Flayer posted:You can't argue that punishment rape is justice "in this instance" with any integrity. If you start justifying rape as a just way of punishing criminals it won't be Nassar who's the victim, it will be all of society when down the line the same punishment is meted out because somebody felt "in this instance" was justified a million different times. You're encouraging barbaric behaviour to flourish as a normal part of justice and society and that has horrific implications for everyone. I have absolutely no difficulty maintaining a separation between people who willingly, hundreds of times, abuse and exploit the vulnerable purely for their own gratification, and people who may be pushed to crime for reasons outside their control. In the latter case a rehabilitative justice system is desirable and good for society, in the former case, I have no patience whatsoever for people arguing for the sanctity of a justice system which has so clearly and utterly failed so many people and has no possible way to give them back what was taken. I'm perfectly able to advocate against capital punishment, in favour of rehabilitative sentencing, and for good conditions in the case of 99% of crimes, crimes committed under mitigating circumstances and as symptom of a societal failing, and for which a person might reasonably atone in future, but I no reason at all to believe that this shithead is one of those, you don't molest hundreds of children for fun from a position of power and privilege without knowing it's wrong, without choosing as freely as any choice can be made to do it. That person does not deserve consideration and when justice has so clearly failed I would rather offer vengeance if it was wanted by the victims than prattle on about the precious sanctity of the justice system.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 15:34
|
|
|
shut the gently caress up owl fancier
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 15:35
|
|
|
How has "justice failed"? Firstly, he got sent to life in prison and he's never getting out. Secondly, tons of people involved are losing their careers and maybe also getting prosecuted. Thirdly, It's not the police or court's job to monitor what goes on at the Michigan State University on a daily basis, it's the MSU's job to do that and the police's job to respond to complaints. It's true that a police officer ignored one of the complaints in 2004, but 99% of this is on MSU. Most of the abuse wasn't reported to the police and instead a lot of it was covered up before it got to that point. This is a lot more about the institution that is the MSU than about the justice system. Things began going south for Nassar after the first civil suit was filed against him in 2016.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 15:54
|
|
|
That entire idea of trusting in the system to do its job and protect people has failed, when a man is finally sent to prison after committing hundreds of crimes against children over his career that's not a success, that's clearly an abject failure, because people trusted that the system would do its job. Clearly it does not. If more people didn't believe in that maybe someone would have gone outside it and gotten attention sooner, or hell just loving offed the bastard much earlier. That would be a manifestly better result than letting it get to this point. I can't see how someone looks at this and thinks "well what we need to do is maintain trust in the process, the process is more important than individuals." And lol at the idea that someone "losing their career and maybe getting prosecuted" is fair recompense for being directly complicit in facilitating this poo poo. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:00
|
|
|
Maybe also getting prosecuted is the key phrase. These people are all rich and can probably bounce back in a few years to another good job (or look at Simon, she gets paid 750k a year after stepping down). Last I checked, guys like Weinstein aren't being prosecuted for what they did, and since there's less evidence against Simon, Geddert, Marta, etc they're even less likely to be prosecuted which is absolutely terrible and just perpetuates all this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:00
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:Maybe also getting prosecuted is the key phrase. These people are all rich and can probably bounce back in a few years to another good job (or look at Simon, she gets paid 750k a year after stepping down). Last I checked, guys like Weinstein aren't being prosecuted for what they did, and since there's less evidence against Simon, Geddert, Marta, etc they're even less likely to be prosecuted which is absolutely terrible and just perpetuates all this. loving exactly, one man, after commiting crimes of an almost incomprehensible magnitude, has been sent to prison. But surely that suggests there are many more like him, and even more who are not quite as bad but still committing heinous offenses against people all the time. What is the justice system going to do about them? What protection is it going to offer to their victims? Clearly it's incapable of even finding out about them, much less prosecuting them. At the very least, it shows a need for alternative systems to get these claims out there and heard. You can't rely on organizational procedure as it stands. Some kind of women's union perhaps that can threaten the organizations they work in to pay attention or face direct action. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:04
|
|
|
Well none of us are gonna stop you from going all vigilante justice and throwing molotov cocktails into the rooms of sleeping sports administrators or whatever, but I for one am gonna laugh at you when you end up dead or in prison for it. I don't imagine anyone on this board thinks that the current American justice system is any good, but childish revenge fantasy is not the basis of how we would like it improved.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:13
|
|
|
Everybody can see that there are systematic organizational and social issues here, none of which are solved by your dumb-as-rocks and perfervid pearl-clutching. The Weinstein case will probably and likely already has had a positive impact on social attitudes in the workplace even if he isn't prosecuted, which he still might be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:14
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:Well none of us are gonna stop you from going all vigilante justice and throwing molotov cocktails into the rooms of sleeping sports administrators or whatever, but I for one am gonna laugh at you when you end up dead or in prison for it. I mean if you wanted to restart suffragette style bombing and arson to force action I would hardly call it unjustified at this point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:25
|
|
|
owlfancier throws himself in front of the presidential motorcade. Trump asks him what he wants and ownfancier tells him that he demands to have prisoners serving life sentences prison raped.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 16:26
|
|
|
Nasser will face justice. In a secular society such as ours, where metaphysical naturalism is taken for granted, justice seems impossible, as we are controlled by our material limitations. Thankfully, we do not live in a purely material world.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:16
|
|
|
Oh wow yeah "god will fix it" that's a great sentiment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:32
|
|
|
And yet it's still a better sentiment than, "I really don't like this guy, so I don't care if he gets raped in prison." Perhaps reflect on that, yes?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:33
|
|
|
I was more arguing that he is empirically one of the worst human beings alive at the moment rather than that I just personally dislike him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:36
|
|
|
Oh well then rape is okay I guess. Seriously, what the gently caress is wrong with you? We should not treat rape as an acceptable thing to happen to someone, even if they are the literal worst person on the entire earth.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Oh well then rape is okay I guess. No, this is stupid too. There's no reason to give a poo poo if this guy gets raped or not, that's different from saying that that should be the function of the criminal justice system.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
I've already stated that I think the best thing to do with him is ask his victims what they want done with him, I doubt they'd pick that as their preferred sentencing. Personally I'd just shoot him and be done with it. But as he's getting the sentence he's got, I just... don't care. I'm not able to care about someone that awful, about someone so consciously and consistently void of giving a poo poo about others, so persistently willing to just take what they want without thought. If you can care about that sort of person then, well, great. I can't, I wouldn't begin to know how to start. Cos to me it's completely dehumanizing, completely antithetical to what makes people people. All I can think of is living around that sort of person, what they'd do to me and the people around me given half a chance. And I simply don't at all understand people looking at this mess and their first concern being "best not be too cruel to the bastard who did it". People moved to violence over this I get. People who call for moderation and trust in the system in the face of its failure, I don't. People have been doing that for years and this case is their repayment. It's not enough. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:No, this is stupid too. There's no reason to give a poo poo if this guy gets raped or not, that's different from saying that that should be the function of the criminal justice system. A prison system that allows Larry Nassar to get raped or assaulted or murdered allows the same thing to happen to other prisoners too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:09
|
|
|
Which is why we should not allow it to happen in the prison system. Doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing to happen, just that it's not the way to run a society.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:Which is why we should not allow it to happen in the prison system. Doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing to happen, just that it's not the way to run a society. hm, no rape is also a bad thing to happen cool to have to explain this in the sexual abuse thread
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Nah, the welfare of that guy is a pretty neutral position, morally. It doesn't really matter that much what happens to him as long as he is no longer free to hurt other people. His treatment after conviction is a matter of doing the smartest thing for the good of society, not of pretending like it matters if he dies or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:47
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:Nah, the welfare of that guy is a pretty neutral position, morally. It doesn't really matter that much what happens to him as long as he is no longer free to hurt other people. His treatment after conviction is a matter of doing the smartest thing for the good of society, not of pretending like it matters if he dies or not. nah, all rape is bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:49
|
|
|
Rape is loving horrible and we are lessened as a society for even tacitly allowing it in discussion for possible punishments - doesn't how many rapes a person commits, raping or allowing them to be raped in turn is loving disgusting and you people need to take a good long look at yourselves. Any emotion-excused punishment in a single case will inevitably be used in other cases without watertight evidence and against innocent people, destroying even more lives for no gain other than a sense of selfrighteous glee that the bad man got hurt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
stone cold posted:nah, all rape is bad You're 100% correct, but sadly I don't think you're going to win any converts on this through reason, because statements like "rape is unequivocally bad" and "torture is unequivocally bad" and "slavery is unequivocally bad" are, to an extent, axiomatic. You either accept that those are fundamental violations of the rights of any human being, by virtue of their basic humanity and completely unchanged by any of their possible actions, or you do not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
I think the point we disagree on is that "basic humanity" includes people who do what he did. Cos I'm not sure someone who does that has any.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 02:16
|
|
|
The point is that it doesn't matter whether he does or not*, we do. *though of course he still does, you need to stop dehumanising people just because you're vengeful, it never leads anywhere good or just
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 02:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 01:28 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I think the point we disagree on is that "basic humanity" includes people who do what he did. Cos I'm not sure someone who does that has any. it’s also p. not cool to rape animals e: PT6A posted:You're 100% correct, but sadly I don't think you're going to win any converts on this through reason, because statements like "rape is unequivocally bad" and "torture is unequivocally bad" and "slavery is unequivocally bad" are, to an extent, axiomatic. You either accept that those are fundamental violations of the rights of any human being, by virtue of their basic humanity and completely unchanged by any of their possible actions, or you do not. yeah, i mean i’m not here to reason with somebody who thinks rape is good in some cases, i’m here to tell them they’re an idiot it’s unfortunate
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 02:50
|
|