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Dwight Eisenhower posted:"run your finances" lol Yeah, what the heck does this mean? No company I have ever worked or interviewed for has ever "run my finances", nor would I let them.
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Feb 12, 2018 21:34
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I think she meant they were going to pull a credit report but that's how she phrased it. I had a phone interview with a company that was towed the same line. They ghosted when I wouldn't name a number... Good riddance.
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Feb 12, 2018 21:53
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all this hullabaloo about Trumps tax returns is dumb, why doesn't some new organization just RUN HIS FINANCES and find out how much he made!? it'll be the scoop of the century!
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Feb 12, 2018 21:58
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What's the protocol when you apply for a job that has the salary in the job posting? Like if the post says 45-68k, am I supposed to pretend that I didn't see that and negotiate for what I want or am I supposed to negotiate for 68k?
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Feb 12, 2018 22:21
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Grump posted:What's the protocol when you apply for a job that has the salary in the job posting? Like if the post says 45-68k, am I supposed to pretend that I didn't see that and negotiate for what I want or am I supposed to negotiate for 68k? Negotiate for what you want, but recognize where they’re anchoring and what impact that might have (that could be their legit budget, though it seems a bit unlikely). Salary ranges outside of unionized environments aren’t always adhered to.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:44
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Grump posted:What's the protocol when you apply for a job that has the salary in the job posting? Like if the post says 45-68k, am I supposed to pretend that I didn't see that and negotiate for what I want or am I supposed to negotiate for 68k? "No deal" is better than a bad deal, and if you enter negotiations equipped with that mindset you'll make far wiser choices. You're also not really looking for an offer during the interview. At least in my experience. I've had a few potential employers pull that, and every time they were low balling me by a significant amount. One of the companies offered me 50% more than their initial offer by their 3rd-4th offer without me ever saying a salary or outright turning down their offers. The stunning part about that was they hired someone from my same class who had actually graduated for that initial offer. He gladly accepted, but they were going to pay me 50% more to work alongside him doing the same work! Khorne fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 05:55
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So just to close up my situation. On monday I called company A and accepted the position. They set up a drug screen and physical for this morning. While at the physical HR called from company B to make an offer. It was 60k, 10k above what company A offered and better than market rate. I didn't see this going any higher, so after talking with HR for a bit I accepted the position. I called company A and let them down, which went okay. So, a loving ton of stress, but things ended okay.
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Feb 14, 2018 19:55
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Macaroni Surprise posted:So just to close up my situation.
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Feb 14, 2018 19:58
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Macaroni Surprise posted:So just to close up my situation. Great job! Never close a door on an opportunity. You didn't say no, you said "yes, IF..." and ended up markedly better off. Did you provide feedback on the Manager's fuckery to Company A's HR?
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Feb 14, 2018 20:14
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Macaroni Surprise posted:So just to close up my situation. Nice work! It sounds like you got the best possible outcome and a 10% raise. I hope the shifty manager learned a lesson.
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Feb 14, 2018 21:14
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I'm currently in a lovely (but well-paying) contract position and I've read through this entire thread over the past few days to get some confidence for the interviewing process at wherever I end up next (and yes, part of the reason I want to GTFO is because I'm bored out of my mind here so I had plenty of time to read the thread). *BUT* that's not what I came here about to post- I'm posting now because I kept seeing people talking about whether or not the "never accept a counter-offer from your current employer" stuff that's floating around on the Internet in general is accurate. Basically, if you work at a company that is still funded by investor money (ie. a startup), this can often be your only way to get paid at market rate, and here's my little story about it: At my last job, I worked as a Technical Writer for a startup that was in the very situation I mentioned above. I'd been there for 5 years at that point, and even after a promotion I discovered that I was making a significant amount below the market rate- I mostly hadn't complained because our benefits were great. I really liked my job a lot, but I had thrown out an application to other companies every now and then just to see who'd be interested in me and/or set up a potential salary match where I currently worked (*an important part of this story is that I had known at least one employee had actually done this multiple times, was very valued, and not viewed as "disloyal" at all). Out of the blue, someone contacted me about a job opening that I had applied for 6+ months before (which is a really common thing in the Pittsburgh area for some stupid reason), so I figured I'd give it a shot and interview there. My direct supervisor had repeatedly been asking for me to get a significant raise to my market rate, but the higher-ups insisted that they couldn't authorize it, so I told her my plan since I knew her before I worked there and trusted her 1000%, so she made her own little plan for how to talk to the execs if I did end up coming back with an offer. I interviewed, and during the process realized that I really didn't want to work there, but if they payed me well I'd still do it. All I was shooting for was to get my current salary at my current job up by $6k to match market rates and I would stay. The company I interviewed with offered me what ended up being a $16k increase- enough of one that I'd work there even though it wasn't my ideal working environment, but I still took that figure to my boss knowing that I'd stay with my current company if they simply adjusted my pay to market rate. Their counter-offer ended up being a *$12k* increase and I took it, knowing that the extra $4k on the table from this other job was absolutely not worth it. After I accepted the offer, the VP of my department took me aside and basically said "Sorry you had to do it that way, but it's the only way to get the COO/CEO to approve a bump that big and we really want you here. Great job." So yeah, it can totally work super well if you know that the company is being stingy about pay for a particular reason- in this case that they had to justify it to the board/investors. If you're wondering why I'm working a lovely contract now, it's because, as most startups do, they went under. Sometimes I like to jokingly think it's because they had to pay me more.
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Feb 14, 2018 21:20
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I don't want to knock the wind out of your sails, but that's still only one large raise in five years. Assuming you can get a reasonable raise in any job switch, you could have done that twice by then and been looking for a third at that point. I get that not everyone wants to do that but I don't think a single large raise is a good reason to stick around for five years at the same company in 2017. The corollary to "don't bother with counter-offers", in my mind, is "seek out and take external offers".
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Feb 14, 2018 21:31
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Nothing is ever universal, but if your current employer is a sizable corporation then accepting a matched/counter-offer from them rather than accept an offer from another company is very often a mistake--they're just buying time to replace you at their convenience rather than yours. The political atmosphere and management style at a startup can vary wildly from one founder/investor to the next. Sounds like you handled your own situation well (agree with Jeff you waited long enough though).
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Feb 14, 2018 21:31
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Great job! My understanding was that it was more HRs fault. He was blaming her for saying I seemed unenthusiastic about taking the job. Regardless of who is at fault, I'm just washing my hands of the situation and glad I avoided them.
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Feb 14, 2018 21:35
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't want to knock the wind out of your sails, but that's still only one large raise in five years. Assuming you can get a reasonable raise in any job switch, you could have done that twice by then and been looking for a third at that point. I get that not everyone wants to do that but I don't think a single large raise is a good reason to stick around for five years at the same company in 2017. No problem- not knocking the wind out of my sails at all. Totally aware that it took me too long to start seeking external offers in the first place. (One thing I also forgot to mention was that the "Technical Writer" job title I had was the promoted title and most companies hiring for that were looking for way more experience than I had- my first 2 years there were as an R&D manufacturing technician and I definitely wasn't trying to apply for a factory job. Still coulda probably pulled off the Tech Writer external opportunity earlier though.)
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Feb 14, 2018 21:36
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Macaroni Surprise posted:My understanding was that it was more HRs fault. He was blaming her for saying I seemed unenthusiastic about taking the job. Regardless of who is at fault, I'm just washing my hands of the situation and glad I avoided them. Honestly I think at that company it all started with you telling them you may have other offers, and "unenthusiastic" translates to "this guy knows he has options and explores them so he won't stay here long". Someone (probably HR) was trying to convince someone else (probably the hiring manager who is desperate to fill the position) that hiring you would be a mistake because you'd be gone to a better company inside of 6 months, and they're probably right.
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Feb 14, 2018 21:38
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Eric the Mauve posted:Honestly I think at that company it all started with you telling them you may have other offers, and "unenthusiastic" translates to "this guy knows he has options and explores them so he won't stay here long". Someone (probably HR) was trying to convince someone else (probably the hiring manager who is desperate to fill the position) that hiring you would be a mistake because you'd be gone to a better company inside of 6 months, and they're probably right. Ironically I probably wouldn't have taken the second interview at the company that I ended up going with had I not gotten the voicemail about them having concerns.
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Feb 14, 2018 22:31
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Eric the Mauve posted:that hiring you would be a mistake because you'd be gone to a better company inside of 6 months, and they're probably right. Maybe in this thread, but everyone I know in real life calms down a lot after they get their job and job searching gets put on the lowest of priorities until they are laid off or the frustration builds up over years for more money. I'm also guilty of that.
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Feb 15, 2018 10:02
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m0therfux0r posted:Basically, if you work at a company that is still funded by investor money (ie. a startup), this can often be your only way to get paid at market rate m0therfux0r posted:The company I interviewed with offered me what ended up being a $16k increase m0therfux0r posted:Their counter-offer ended up being a *$12k* increase and I took it Or, you could, you know, go work at the company offering you $16k more than you are presently making. That's the other way to get paid at market rate Noone's saying that you can't get your current employer to give you more money with a counteroffer. They're saying that if you do, you might get that raise, and the expected value of that raise is marginal, because you'll end up unemployed shortly there after. Which your story is entirely consistent with. Out of curiosity, is the employer who offered you $4k more than you made still in business?
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Feb 15, 2018 19:13
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Out of curiosity, is the employer who offered you $4k more than you made still in business? Yep, but I have zero desire to work there- super conservative atmosphere, security clearance required, random drug tests all the time, you weren't allowed to have any personal electronics in the building, they searched all of your belongings in and out the door, and I'm ethically opposed to the work that they do (which I only really discovered through the interview). All absolutely not worth $4k/yr to me and I knew I was taking a gamble in being forced to work there if I got no counteroffer. My original post was less about whether or not the choice was right for me and more about the whole "fear of appearing disloyal" thing. It was a startup, I knew it was a risk, and the only reason I don't work there anymore was legitimately because of a lack of investor funding. The main reason I put up with being underpaid there was because the benefits were incredible. Definitely know I could have done better and that wasn't my original point at all. Also, even though I think my current job is boring as all hell, I am making $10k more than I did at the startup. It's amazing how much less work and more pay a lame corporate environment is. Anyway, to make a long story short, I now know how to better handle myself in the future because of this thread, so thanks for making it!
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Feb 15, 2018 20:12
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Hey, so I got an offer from a company. The corporate thread said to ask over here about negotiating salary. Offer: Base Salary: 100% of my current salary, it's exactly the same and a 15% signing bonus. The recruiter said something about not having a lot of maneuvering room on base salary so they tried to make it up with the signing bonus. Bonuses: Roughly 10-20% depending on performance 401k: 1.5% matching (why even bother if it's that low) Additional 4-5% contribution to retirement savings The work would be more interesting and varied than what I do now but probably also at least 25% more hours. Also future raises and promotions are more likely than at my current work. The recruiter said I'd be eligible for a manager position in 1-2 years, which according to Glassdoor would be ball park 150% of my current salary. I asked some other people who've worked at similar companies and they say that time frame sounds reasonable. Current Job: Bonuses: None 401k: 8.5% Hours: 40 a week, work is interesting when there's enough of it but I'm often bored and don't have a lot to do. Overall office facilities and environment is also a bit better than at the new place. According to Glassdoor I'm basically at the top end of the salary range at my company for my title. The next step up would be 15% more and after that manager is maybe 25% more than my current salary. So potential future earnings are much lower than at the new place. Seems like overall salaries at my work are low for the industry, probably because we only work 40 hours. So I think the new place would be better long term for my career and I would like to work on more varied stuff/be less bored. The overall comp on the offer seems a little weak though. I'm thinking I'd want 110% for base salary as my counter offer. I think even with the bonus my hourly rate would probably stay the same or even go down a bit due to the increased hours. Does that all sound reasonable? The only piece I don't know how to weigh is the potential future income/promotions at the new place. bamhand fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 21:47
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bamhand posted:Hey, so I got an offer from a company. The corporate thread said to ask over here about negotiating salary. Sounds like your best alternative is staying put, and you're mostly finding staying put acceptable save for your theories about long term compensation. So, go ahead and demand 110%. They might say no. Then you get to stay at your current job with comparable compensation and better hours. Don't weigh "potential future income". It's not something you are getting. You could: - Stay where you're at, get promoted, and then switch jobs to get better future income. - Switch chasing the lure of "future income", get fired for reasons completely unrelated to your own job performance, and end up with nothing. - Switch, and not end up actually better compensated but with worse hours and worse 401k match. Make the deal good for right now, not based on a nebulous "future value"
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Feb 20, 2018 14:16
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Never ever ever ever weigh "potential future income" as a factor when making career decisions. It is, almost invariably, an empty promise made my management to avoid paying you now. They are lying.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:13
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Well according to Glassdoor the overall career trajectory there earns a lot more than at my company. And I've talked to people at similar companies and they said they generally do promote every year or so unless you're a bad performer. Not saying you guys don't make good points but it doesn't seem like it's the recruiter just making stuff up to get an accept.
bamhand fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 16:21
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Eric the Mauve posted:Never ever ever ever weigh "potential future income" as a factor when making career decisions. It is, almost invariably, an empty promise made my management to avoid paying you now. They are lying. I think there's a difference between potential career trajectory and possible bonuses or internal promotions. Consulting > out of consulting seems to be a pretty effective way to jump a couple levels, depending on what your field is.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:33
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Yeah, I should be more clear: don't ever depend on raises/promotions within the same company for "potential future income." In almost (almost!) all cases you advance faster in your field by jumping companies than by staying in one place and trying for internal promotion.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:38
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Well I ended up countering with 110% without a sign on bonus. The recruiter made it sound like that was going to be a hard sell. Somehow she found it hard to believe I didn't want to take a 7% pay cut in exchange for a 15% sign on bonus.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:21
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bamhand posted:Well I ended up countering with 110% without a sign on bonus. The recruiter made it sound like that was going to be a hard sell. Somehow she found it hard to believe I didn't want to take a 7% pay cut in exchange for a 15% sign on bonus. Do you think it would actually be worth it at 110% of your current salary and "at least" 125% of your current hours?
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Feb 20, 2018 21:44
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I think the bonuses and the extra hours more or less make it a wash. So it'd be 130-135% of my current salary in exchange for +125% more hours. Basically my hourly rate would be roughly the same but with more work.
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Feb 20, 2018 21:55
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bamhand posted:I think the bonuses and the extra hours more or less make it a wash. So it'd be 130-135% of my current salary in exchange for +125% more hours. Basically my hourly rate would be roughly the same but with more work. I did exactly this and the extra time I spend at work absolutely wasn't worth it. I'm salaried at 50/wk minimum in my contract for your reference. Also I travel 70% so that might be part of my discouragement.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:17
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Well they came back and met my counter. The recruiter said she was surprised because by both agreeing to the salary and the quick response. Not sure how much of that is just her BSing me. One thing she mentioned is that their comp is strictly tied to position/title. So this changes me from Senior 2 to Senior 3, which is directly below manager, which would likely happen by summer of next year. So I guess that works out pretty well for me. The 15% sign on bonus also vests over 3 years so this makes it easier if I decide I hate the long hours. I figure I'm still relatively young at early 30's so this can get my salary a boost before kids etc. And also this group is 0-20% travel instead of the usual 80% for most of the other consulting groups.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:56
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bamhand posted:Well they came back and met my counter. The recruiter said she was surprised because by both agreeing to the salary and the quick response. Not sure how much of that is just her BSing me. One thing she mentioned is that their comp is strictly tied to position/title. So this changes me from Senior 2 to Senior 3, which is directly below manager, which would likely happen by summer of next year. Congrats. What do you mean about the three-year vesting period making it easier if you change your mind? Seems like a hook to keep you there.
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Feb 21, 2018 09:55
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Vox Nihili posted:Congrats. He negotiated 10% more salary instead of a 15% signing bonus. The bonus vests over three years, the salary is immediate. If he decides to leave after 6 months he doesn't need to return anything this way.
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Feb 21, 2018 12:25
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What happens if I’ve done some research, found the average salary range, and just peg myself at the very top (or just over the top) in terms of experience? For example, this company is asking for PHDs with 0-4 years of postgrad experience. I have 4 years and specific skill sets that match what they’re looking for. The median salary for this position is $X. I’m currently making X+10k, I want to ask for x+30, which is about 5000 over the upper end of the salary range. Would they just bounce my application? Or would they interview me and potential try to get me to accept something lower?
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Feb 21, 2018 21:47
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areyoucontagious posted:What happens if I’ve done some research, found the average salary range, and just peg myself at the very top (or just over the top) in terms of experience? Apply and don't state your salary requirements up front. If they ask, say something like "Right now, I'm looking to determine if this is a good fit for me and if I'm a good fit for your company. If we agree that we are, we can discuss compensation at that point." or "Salary is just one part of total compensation, I can't give you a number without knowing all of the other particulars of the deal." or some other polite way of saying you aren't going to talk about it outside of a salary negotiation. If you get through the interview process and they extend an offer, then ask for what you want.
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Feb 21, 2018 23:00
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To the spot-on advice above this post I will add that if the company refuses to consider your application unless you name a desired salary, that's just fine--that means you don't want to work for that company.
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Feb 21, 2018 23:10
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I'd be interested in getting some opinions on my current situation. Due to stock appreciation and quick promotions, my compensation is fairly far out of band for someone at my level. Someone getting hired at the same level/role at similar (top) companies would typically receive an offer of maybe 20-30% less (initially; would go up with subsequent refresher grants). My motivation for looking around is that I have a 4-year stock cliff coming up, making it likely that my comp will decrease slightly the year after (maybe by 5% or so), and I haven't interviewed at all in the last few years. I'm planning on taking a couple of exploratory calls in the near future. I believe that it is better to reveal both my level (our levels are private and not apparent from my job title) and my compensation early in the process -- which goes against common wisdom in this thread. However, I see little downside in this instance -- anchoring works in my favor (i.e. negotiating upwards from my current comp, rather than countering upwards against a much lower initial offer), my BATNA is very strong, and it prevents me from being considered for more junior/lower paying roles, which I suspect is likely to happen otherwise (there is no chance I would be considered for more senior roles than my current one). Any thoughts on that?
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Feb 26, 2018 09:39
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You are more or less right. If you are overpaid for your job title, you can spin that in just being really good and revealing your salary works in your favour. The real guideline is not 'never reveal your current pay' but 'never reveal your current pay if that puts you in a weaker bargaining position'.
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Feb 26, 2018 09:42
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Agreed. 100% of successful negotiation is reading your specific situation and your counterparty's specific situation. Our default advice is "Don't tell people what you currently make" because for the vast majority of people, they're underpaid and will continue to be underpaid if they reveal their salary. As shotgun advice goes, it will be right most of the time. If you know that you're compensated above market, telling people that saves both of you a lot of time in multiple dimensions, and at WORST means those who engage with you as a candidate will offer to continue to compensate you above market in a lateral move.
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Feb 26, 2018 15:51
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So then--seeing as it's not verifiable, else an interviewer would just call your employer rather than try to weasel the information out of you--why not just lie about what you currently make?  (There's a correct practical [as opposed to moral] answer to this question, I think. I'm curious whether anyone else hits on it.)
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Feb 26, 2018 16:15
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