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Mniot posted:I hope you wrote it that way because your coworker remapped capslock and you got used to it. If only I was that funny on purpose.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:38
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Volguus posted:There are indeed many reasons. the talent deficit listed a few. There is only one valid reason though: legal/compliance. Even that one can probably be taken care of if there's a will, but usually is probably not worth the effort. The rest are easily dismissed without a second thought. Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry.
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Feb 13, 2018 00:03
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Blinkz0rz posted:Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry. So you'd rather have immature employees that can't follow processes than someone who wants to work remote?
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Feb 13, 2018 00:06
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baquerd posted:So you'd rather have immature employees that can't follow processes than someone who wants to work remote? No, I'd rather develop a team and mature them before I take on the additional requirements of a remote worker.
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Feb 13, 2018 00:09
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Blinkz0rz posted:Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry. To be fair, I wouldn't work for you either tbh.
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Feb 13, 2018 00:13
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Blinkz0rz posted:If you are so fundamentally broken Blinkz0rz posted:You are 100% wrong. Blinkz0rz posted:Attributing it to lovely management is lazy as hell and makes you look completely out of touch. Blinkz0rz posted:Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry. you keep posting with 100% certainty that your posts aren't viscous garbage
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Feb 13, 2018 01:32
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I work remotely and the rest of my team is onsite in an open office and our manager is in a different time zone. Do I win a prize for weirdest setup?
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Feb 13, 2018 05:07
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I work in an open office and it's not really a problem, since everyone's quiet anyway. But there's not that much benefit either - everyone mostly works on different things, people just grab an empty meeting room when they need to collaborate, and you pretty much have to pre-schedule time with the senior devs since their time is constantly in demand anyway. The only real impact of the open office is that the whole team knows when someone gets a call from one of the few people who know how to reach our desk phones.
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Feb 13, 2018 05:57
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Blinkz0rz posted:Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry. Your argument continues to basically boil down to "Remote work is bad because I don't like it and also my particular team is Not A Mature Team" (whatever "Not A Mature Team" is even supposed to mean here), so, uh, I guess it's good that we're not working together. Maybe rig up an air horn to blast whenever someone gets a commit into master, because only True Developers work there and they are all immune to losing flow from distractions so it's really just a fiesta!
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Feb 13, 2018 06:13
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Blinkz0rz posted:Disagree 100%. Dismissing concerns over employee maturity and team process is one of those things that people who think their poo poo doesn't stink do. I'm glad if remote works for you but I wouldn't hire you if that's your sticking point. Sorry, not sorry. team process is exactly what we're talking about; if you have functional process and good communication remote is no big deal. if you need everyone scurrying from desk to desk to figure out what's going on you are bad at your job
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Feb 13, 2018 06:45
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This feels like a case where people are totally not addressing the modifiers that tip the decision towards remote or not. If you’re involved in a lot of design discussions, supporting juniors, collaborating cross disciplines, it’s a lot harder to do those things effectively in a remote situation. Pure technical roles where it is far easier to perform your work self sufficiently for larger periods of time benefit greatly from less interruption, and don’t need all that surplus communication bandwidth being on site affords. To assume that the choice to allow for remotes or not doesn’t have tradeoffs in team building, processes and work output is kind of naive or stubborn. This isn’t to say you can’t have some roles remote and some not, but more the point is these you don’t do your points any help by disregarding the tradeoffs that exist.
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Feb 13, 2018 07:17
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I just build a new Haswell-E 6800k pc with 32GB of Ram and a 500GB 960 nvme. A full build of my work project on the new PC: 45 minutes. A full build on my work PC: 120 minutes. 
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Feb 13, 2018 12:58
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ratbert90 posted:I just build a new Haswell-E 6800k pc with 32GB of Ram and a 500GB 960 nvme. Two hours to build? What the gently caress are you making?
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Feb 13, 2018 14:00
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Pollyanna posted:Two hours to build? What the gently caress are you making? Flash/Boot/Root filing systems for an embedded Linux project.
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Feb 13, 2018 14:02
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At least it's some downtime. What do you use that time for?
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Feb 13, 2018 14:03
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Pollyanna posted:At least it's some downtime. What do you use that time for? YouTube or submitting patches to BuildRoot. Right now I am working on gobject-introspection
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Feb 13, 2018 14:33
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ratbert90 posted:YouTube or submitting patches to BuildRoot. Right now I am working on gobject-introspection If you had a “cloud” box with really fast cpus and ram would it speed you up? Edit: I bet this is cpu bound to a single thread due to being embed and all.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:03
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freeasinbeer posted:If you had a cloud box with really fast CPUs and ram would it speed you up? I'm not compiling the system on an embedded device, that would be silly. Also, it's a dual-core imx6. 
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Feb 13, 2018 15:29
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Volmarias posted:Your argument continues to basically boil down to "Remote work is bad because I don't like it and also my particular team is Not A Mature Team" (whatever "Not A Mature Team" is even supposed to mean here), so, uh, I guess it's good that we're not working together. Maybe rig up an air horn to blast whenever someone gets a commit into master, because only True Developers work there and they are all immune to losing flow from distractions so it's really just a fiesta! Look back through my posts. At no point did I say that remote work was bad. What I said are 2 things: 1. Turning down a job because of an open office is dumb because, generally, they're not bad although they can be if they're treated as a panacea for organizational problems. 2. I wouldn't hire remotely for my team because a) we're pretty new and b) the composition of the team is pretty junior; less than 3 years of experience except for me. Also please don't commit to master. Just don't do it. Please. the talent deficit posted:team process is exactly what we're talking about; if you have functional process and good communication remote is no big deal. if you need everyone scurrying from desk to desk to figure out what's going on you are bad at your job Let me give you another example of team process. My boss used to be a bit of a micromanager and only very recently let me run sprints for my own team. We're still refining our process and moving from time-based tickets (sad and bad) to complexity-based. Until our team's process is built up I can't support the additional burden that a remote worker brings. But again, that's an organizational issue which is what we've been talking about. Basically this: Maluco Marinero posted:This feels like a case where people are totally not addressing the modifiers that tip the decision towards remote or not. If you’re involved in a lot of design discussions, supporting juniors, collaborating cross disciplines, it’s a lot harder to do those things effectively in a remote situation.
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Feb 13, 2018 16:04
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Blinkz0rz posted:Look back through my posts. At no point did I say that remote work was bad. What I said are 2 things: It sounds like you're violently agreeing, then? Everyone else is saying "remote work should be just fine with good processes, a competent team, and decent management", and you're responding with "well, our processes suck, our team sucks, and our management sucks, so remote work doesn't work for everyone".
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Feb 13, 2018 16:26
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Main Paineframe posted:It sounds like you're violently agreeing, then? Everyone else is saying "remote work should be just fine with good processes, a competent team, and decent management", and you're responding with "well, our processes suck, our team sucks, and our management sucks, so remote work doesn't work for everyone". Read Maluco's post: Maluco Marinero posted:This feels like a case where people are totally not addressing the modifiers that tip the decision towards remote or not. If you’re involved in a lot of design discussions, supporting juniors, collaborating cross disciplines, it’s a lot harder to do those things effectively in a remote situation.
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Feb 13, 2018 16:57
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In general, I am OK with you working remote... after onboarding that is. At least in my case, our system is complicated, there's hardware involved, and it's a giant pain in the rear end to get somebody up to speed remotely. I would rather them just be here for a month or two, and then they can work remotely.
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Feb 13, 2018 16:59
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Blinkz0rz posted:Let me give you another example of team process. My boss used to be a bit of a micromanager and only very recently let me run sprints for my own team. We're still refining our process and moving from time-based tickets (sad and bad) to complexity-based. so your management is bad? i'm not saying everyone should just get good at management. good management is a rare thing. what i'm saying is that if your team can't support remote workers without any additional burden it means that your process sucks and needs improvement. any situation where i have to be physically located to overhear incidental conversations to do my job efficiently is a recipe for failure. every single job should try to capture all relevant information in some sort of semi permanent asynchronous medium like email or slack or jira or whatever. i don't care if your entire team is locked in the same 8 x 8 cell, you still need to write poo poo down and have a canonical place people can refer to to figure out what is happening. that's not just a 'nice to have' it's absolutely critical for a well run team
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Feb 13, 2018 17:15
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the talent deficit posted:so your management is bad? Is getting better. quote:i'm not saying everyone should just get good at management. good management is a rare thing. what i'm saying is that if your team can't support remote workers without any additional burden it means that your process sucks and needs improvement. any situation where i have to be physically located to overhear incidental conversations to do my job efficiently is a recipe for failure. every single job should try to capture all relevant information in some sort of semi permanent asynchronous medium like email or slack or jira or whatever. i don't care if your entire team is locked in the same 8 x 8 cell, you still need to write poo poo down and have a canonical place people can refer to to figure out what is happening. that's not just a 'nice to have' it's absolutely critical for a well run team Your approach lacks nuance. You keep assuming a binary state of good/bad management when the reality is that it's a massively broad spectrum that's not "1 size fits all." There are so many reasons that a team might not be able to or want to support remote work that go beyond "be in one room for communication". I'm glad you've worked for companies and teams where support for remote workers has been established but it takes time and energy to build out process to support remote workers beyond establishing asynchronous communication processes and having a centralized repository for institutional knowledge.
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Feb 13, 2018 18:13
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Blinkz0rz posted:There are so many reasons that a team might not be able to or want to support remote work that go beyond "be in one room for communication". I want to know what these reasons are, because despite your repeated protests to the contrary I feel like they're mostly traceable to bad management. With the ubiquity and ease of use of IM/video conferencing/screen sharing, someone being offsite should have near zero impact on their performance in a team. Even as a junior.
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Feb 13, 2018 19:07
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What is it exactly about remote employees that makes them harder to manage? What’s an example of that? Do they have any inherent disadvantages?
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Feb 13, 2018 19:46
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ratbert90 posted:I just build a new Haswell-E 6800k pc with 32GB of Ram and a 500GB 960 nvme. It'd be even faster if you'd have gone with a 1700X. AMD is the performance king... of Linux kernel compiling 
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Feb 13, 2018 19:54
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Pollyanna posted:What is it exactly about remote employees that makes them harder to manage? What’s an example of that? Do they have any inherent disadvantages? Remote employees can turn down the volume when management tries to yell 
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Feb 13, 2018 19:57
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Munkeymon posted:It'd be even faster if you'd have gone with a 1700X. AMD is the performance king... of Linux kernel compiling I like the osx86 support of the intel though. 
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Feb 13, 2018 20:39
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Who here thinks training employees with limited experience through purely remote means is easy? If so, how much teaching have you actually done? Teaching is a very give & take experience that requires as much bandwidth and flexibility in communication approaches and time management as you can get. While it is certainly possible remotely, my money is on the colocated team of juniors with mentors disseminating critical learning and rising up to a productive level far faster than a distributed team - even with equivalent and effective documentation and processes. The inflexible view of what management is, and its roles in promoting an effective work environment for the current goals and state of the company, is ultimately hamstrung and limits the engagement of managers in what their actual job is. In my current small team of two, I work remotely from home, have done for a long time now, however we are working on a product together requiring more design discussions, and as such I’m returning back to work colocated with my business partner so we can do this stuff more effectively. If we grow the thing we’re working on, we’ll need junior people, and that requires me to make myself readily available to those people with the least amount of friction. You may be able to do that remotely, but there is a bit of a gap in emotional connection and being able to read where people are at. As long as you set up the workspace intelligently, it’s good for morale to be colocated and working together in that space, as a team, which is important during team formation and the inevitable storming process that occurs during your team progression (forming -> storming -> norming -> performing). I’m not attacking the concept of remote here. I’m attacking the idea that the absence of particular markers, like remote work, is immediately damning of ones managerial approach or systems. It avoids talking about that actual stuff management is composed of, of making deliberate decisions in leadership and team building in order to facilitate doing their best work. I think the black or white attitude is ultimately harmful if it is taken on by people who treat management as a set of hard rules that have clear answers. It’s way more subtle than that. Teams evolve over time, they respond to external and internal change, their circumstances change. You try things and you observe how they work with your team. You certainly draw from a playbook of previous experience, but to rely wholly and solely on that is to put the blinkers on and accept whatever comes from it, good or bad. Remote work is a management TACTIC, not a strategy, and there’s no point discussing tactics without the overall strategy in mind.
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Feb 13, 2018 20:46
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Pollyanna posted:What is it exactly about remote employees that makes them harder to manage? What’s an example of that? Do they have any inherent disadvantages? There's significantly more overhead involved in all forms of communication with remote workers in both directions. Exchange of any amount of information, from small things like "is X working today" to extended in-depth technical discussions, becomes slower, more expensive, less reliable, and more subject to attenuation. This, in turn, jeopardizes the team's ability to maintain a shared context. Additionally, there are a variety of ways to mitigate the risks and reduce the costs involved with remote work, and some are more effective than others. Discovering those ways itself requires time and effort and increases the risk of context loss. Even once a satisfactory process is found, preserving that institutional knowledge within the team (i.e. minimizing the cost of answering the question "How do we onboard a new remote employee?" when it is asked N months or years from now) is also more costly and more error-prone. All of these problems fall within the purview of management to address. Their goal should be to ensure that the benefits of being able to support remote employees (which can be considerable) are not outweighed by the sum of the above costs.
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Feb 13, 2018 20:46
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ChickenWing posted:I want to know what these reasons are, because despite your repeated protests to the contrary I feel like they're mostly traceable to bad management. I should just let Maluco post for me. Maluco Marinero posted:Who here thinks training employees with limited experience through purely remote means is easy? If so, how much teaching have you actually done?
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Feb 13, 2018 20:49
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Coworker comes into office, sits down beside me and stares at screen. Hey, Mike, what can I help you with? OH, Nothing! Just procrastinating. Hey, did you hear about blah blah blah.
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Feb 13, 2018 20:51
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ratbert90 posted:Coworker comes into office, sits down beside me and stares at screen. lol I mean, we can all relate to that though
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Feb 13, 2018 21:08
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ChickenWing posted:I want to know what these reasons are, because despite your repeated protests to the contrary I feel like they're mostly traceable to bad management. If you ask the other dev about "hey do you know where the code is that does X" or "do you know why this here is like that" or "what if we did this like that", then when they are sitting next to you it's no big deal, but over an IM or email or phone it gets annoying real quick, so they refrain from communicating nearly as much. Even if the person is in the next room, you'd soon feel like a bell-end going back and forth to their office 20 times a day. In practical terms the physical proximity is hugely beneficial. Especially important as a junior is that as a remote worker, not only do you have less idea of what the other project members are doing and where they're at, but nobody can notice if you are struggling or reinventing the wheel. Juniors doing remote work, it's just... nope.
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Feb 13, 2018 23:54
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ChickenWing posted:Entirety of SA: What is this middle ground you speak of
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Feb 14, 2018 00:45
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Pollyanna posted:What is it exactly about remote employees that makes them harder to manage? What’s an example of that? Do they have any inherent disadvantages? For some comparisons about teaching / communication, how effective are MOOCs at teaching concepts and improving the skills of students compared to private tutoring? The folks that tend to succeed at MOOCs by and large would have done quite fine in traditional learning environments besides situations that are impediments to them (medical problems and other personal situations that are orthogonal to human ability as much as means / social status). On the flip side, bad tutors are just money sinks and in a sense the worst scenario of high cost and little or negative rewards. Distributed / traditional needs to be brought into perspective and it’s a lot less clear-cut than monolith vs microservices (I think that may be a better analogue for the conversation that is better understood by the subforum). We all know that there’s pros and cons and that one is a clearly hyped up trend. The other direction of inappropriate structure is certainly over-used and oftentimes by places that are either going to fail or are propped up by para-market forces (read: plutocracy, nepotism). I think half of why defense jobs are so unproductive is that the culture / requirements force people into methods that only worked prior to modern business drivers - this is before the personnel selection issues (other half). Combined with the Geneva convention violation that is DC area commuting, innovation dies and most of the innovation happens via third parties that don’t even live in the region or work in environments more conducive to faster-paced creative work that is more of a competitive differentiator now in operations.
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Feb 14, 2018 03:24
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gently caress open plan - Especially when the team behind you has a Bluetooth speaker, and instead of having a constant background level of music you can tune out; they will pick a random time and volume and just play some Hocus Pocus as their bipolar team lead is on a high note for that 5 minute period. This morning it was "Friday" by Rebecca Black. I don't even know what irony is anymore. I'd be happy with per team offices at the minimum.
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Feb 15, 2018 09:48
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Cancelbot posted:gently caress open plan - Especially when the team behind you has a Bluetooth speaker, and instead of having a constant background level of music you can tune out; they will pick a random time and volume and just play some Hocus Pocus as their bipolar team lead is on a high note for that 5 minute period. This morning it was "Friday" by Rebecca Black. I don't even know what irony is anymore. Team rooms can be pretty sweet. At one gig we had a team room where everyone on our team (engineers, QA, BA, APM) worked about 80% of the time, and each of us had very very high-walled cubes we could go and retreat to if we ever needed pure focus time and headphones weren't cutting it.
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Feb 15, 2018 10:19
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necrobobsledder posted:In one word - self-sufficiency. Remote employees are basically part-time managers in many respects in the absence of massive organizational structure of process and tooling specifically around to enable these workers. In-person, you can gloss over a lot of problems with structured communication workflows. Even senior folks can be unsuitable for remote positions because they are super bad at communication even if their work output is ok. I fired a guy before that was 20 years my senior not so much because of skill but because he was just plain bad at telling people wtf he accomplished despite my repeated attempts to get some visible output (the work was mostly transactional rather than project-oriented so closer to lawyers or blue collar service work given it was a body shop ultimately). With less interruptions, less adhoc hallway conversations to smooth over any issues with alignment, you are doubling down upon your individual contributors making solid business decisions with their scope of work - Taylorism don’t like that, nope. And honestly, most fully remote teams I’ve seen tend to be budget-strapped and this can’t offer the mentorship and turn-on-a-dime kind of workflows being colocated in the same time zone can achieve or have zero reasons to hire juniors from a structural perspective (contracting jobs that require super high output / quality that juniors don’t have that are orthogonal to just programming ability). This turned into something produced by a Markov chain past the 3rd sentence.
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