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skasion posted:I’m pretty sure that way back in “The King of the Golden Hall” Gandalf got Theoden to commit to defeating Isengard first and then wheeling around to attack Mordor. quote:There is no time to tell all that you should hear,’ said Gandalf. ‘Yet if my hope is not cheated, a time will come ere long
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Feb 13, 2018 16:24
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Rereading that chapter, Gandalf is really kind of subtle about it. He never comes out and says in the dialogue “attack Mordor”, but still repeatedly points Theoden in that direction. When he uncloaks himself: quote:He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth. Then they head outside at Gandalf’s suggestion and take a look eastward: quote:But the wind had shifted to the north, and already the storm that had come out of the East was receding, rolling away southward to the sea. Suddenly through a rent in the clouds behind them a shaft of sun stabbed down. The falling showers gleamed like silver, and far away the river glittered like a shimmering glass. Gandalf then speaks secretly in Theoden’s ear for a while as they look out eastwards and then says loud enough for everyone to hear: quote:’Verily,’ said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, ‘that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread. Yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little while.’ Legolas thinks he can see the White Tower in the distance, and beyond it a tongue of flame. Theoden seems beaten down by his situation, “alas that these evil days shall be mine”. Gandalf suggests he grasp a sword. Eomer gives Theoden his for the time being, since Grima’s got Theoden’s stowed away somewhere, and Theoden flourishes it and cries: quote:“Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden! This is an open summons to war against Mordor (and his guards take it literally as such and come right up to him asking for commands). Then he asks Gandalf what counsel he has to give, and Gandalf says more or less “listen to Eomer, who already told you Saruman was bad news”. quote:“Every man that can ride should be sent west at once, as Éomer counselled you: we must first destroy the threat of Saruman, while we have time. If we fail, we fall. If we succeed – then we will face the next task.” This is great stuff honestly. Gandalf never mentions Mordor or Sauron by name and he never openly says you should go to war against them (even his secret speech with Theoden apparently did not constitute “counsel” of that kind). But he constantly implies it such that Theoden clearly understands he must do it as soon as Saruman’s defeated. e: beaten
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Feb 13, 2018 16:25
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One of the hallmarks of Tolkiens 'wise' characters is that they seldom tell anyone exactly what to do, but instead lay out the situation so that what needs to be done is obvious. But as Frodo pointed out to Gildor, this leads to real problems when the right course of action isn't clear. But part of the wisdom of the wise is that they can't make people's decisions for them. That is really what separates Saruman and Sauron from Gandalf. Saruman and Sauron want to control, while Gandalf is content to be an advisor and helper. This is also why the ring is such a threat to Gandalf, because it would make him want to contol people.
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Feb 13, 2018 17:22
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Hmm Gandalf goes far beyond mere helper or advisor. His dream manipulation for one is a bit beyond just helping. Also he directly intervenes with Frodo to take off the ring. And killing the werewolves and the Balrog and usurping Deanothor euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 17:25
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euphronius posted:Hmm Gandalf goes far beyond mere helper or advisor. One might say . . . He was no angel
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Feb 13, 2018 17:29
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sweet geek swag posted:One of the hallmarks of Tolkiens 'wise' characters is that they seldom tell anyone exactly what to do, but instead lay out the situation so that what needs to be done is obvious. But as Frodo pointed out to Gildor, this leads to real problems when the right course of action isn't clear. But part of the wisdom of the wise is that they can't make people's decisions for them. That is really what separates Saruman and Sauron from Gandalf. Saruman and Sauron want to control, while Gandalf is content to be an advisor and helper. This is also why the ring is such a threat to Gandalf, because it would make him want to contol people.
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Feb 13, 2018 17:31
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euphronius posted:Hmm Gandalf goes far beyond mere helper or advisor. This is semantics. He helps Frodo take off the ring, he helps the Fellowship survive the werewolves, he helps Faramir not get murdered by Denethor. I never said Gandalf never intervenes. But his intervention is always in service to another. It is also worth noting that Gandalf is fairly direct with the hobbits, and is generally more willing to take direct action in their defense than for almost any other purpose. This is because Gandalfs sense of justice pushes him to protect the weak. But by the end of the story the hobbits aren't weak, so he allows them to take care of their problems on their own.
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Feb 13, 2018 17:44
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Semantics are important. I agree. We should keep focusing on them probably. His intervention is based on his literally holy crusade that helps certain men and certain elves achieve hegemony. The elves are more of an afterthought really. He's pro man. euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 17:45
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euphronius posted:Semantics are important. I agree. We should keep focusing on them probably. Gandalf's 'crusade' is to act as a a balance against Sauron. There is a very 'white man's burden' vibe to the Numenorean relationship to the Southrons and Easterlings, but that is largely a product of how Tolkien viewed the world. Gandalf's limitations are a mirror of his author's, his support for Aragorn and Gondor is half necessity and half a reflection of the colonial world as Tolkien saw it.
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Feb 13, 2018 18:07
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Yeah I agree with that completely.
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Feb 13, 2018 18:10
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Gandalf "aids" Men because they are good at fighting and Gandalf needs soldiers for his war. His aim is to defeat Sauron, not something so small and petty as to keep specific royal families in power in certain regions. The Return of the King isn't the victory, it's the method (except he'd won over Faramir so even if Aragorn had failed he had a ready backup to gain Gondor's forces).
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Feb 13, 2018 18:28
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It’s pretty appropriate that we’re discussing this now, given that Gandalf Day is tomorrow Anyway he ALSO assassinated the ruler of an independent orc nation that didn’t answer to Sauron, causing tribal splintering and a power vacuum that destabilized the whole region and doubtless helped the Necromancer rebuild his armies. But at least he offed the Balrog.
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Feb 13, 2018 18:36
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He crowned Aragorn long after Sauron was dead.
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Feb 13, 2018 18:38
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Of course, Aragorn had positioned himself as the heir of a dynasty that had been founded with the support and by the command of Manwe, not to mention Gandalf's own boss Aule.
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Feb 13, 2018 19:13
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Bongo Bill posted:Of course, Aragorn had positioned himself as the heir of a dynasty that had been founded with the support and by the command of Manwe, not to mention Gandalf's own boss Aule. Aule was Saruman’s boss; Gandalf’s was, um, Varda?
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Feb 13, 2018 20:06
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He wasn’t all in with any one Vala. Tolkien associates him variously with Manwë, Varda, Nienna and Lórien. e: in his capacity as one of the Istari though, Manwë is the most applicable “boss” because he’s the one who picked him for the task. skasion fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 20:10
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elise the great posted:It’s pretty appropriate that we’re discussing this now, given that Gandalf Day is tomorrow I doubt that the Great Goblin would have resisted Sauron once he openly declared himself. Helping Thorin in general was a pretty dubious decision on Gandalf's part though.
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Feb 13, 2018 20:41
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The way I see it Gandalf the Grey has mostly forgotten what the hell he is supposed to be doing and it takes the arrival of the ring on the scene to catalyze him into fulfilling his mission again. I forget if this agrees with The Quest of Erebor/Appendix take but I really don’t see Gandalf as having a master plan stretching back to the beginning of The Hobbit. He‘s a general do-gooder type and will gladly help the dwarves take back the mountain if he can, because dragons are bad news, but I don’t see him as working constantly against Sauron for 2000 years.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:01
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Well there is the whole investigation and attack on Dol Guldur.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:03
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euphronius posted:Well there is the whole investigation and attack on Dol Guldur. That’s right at the same time as The Hobbit though, isn’t it? Like the reason why Gandalf leaves the dwarves on their own in Mirkwood is because he’s off to gently caress poo poo up down there.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:08
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Well yeah but the investigation and watch was for hundreds of years iirc.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:14
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skasion posted:The way I see it Gandalf the Grey has mostly forgotten what the hell he is supposed to be doing and it takes the arrival of the ring on the scene to catalyze him into fulfilling his mission again. I forget if this agrees with The Quest of Erebor/Appendix take but I really don’t see Gandalf as having a master plan stretching back to the beginning of The Hobbit. He‘s a general do-gooder type and will gladly help the dwarves take back the mountain if he can, because dragons are bad news, but I don’t see him as working constantly against Sauron for 2000 years. He's foggy but he's not clueless; that said ,yeah, the purpose of backing Thorin is to try to get rid of Smaug.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:22
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elise the great posted:It’s pretty appropriate that we’re discussing this now, given that Gandalf Day is tomorrow
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Feb 13, 2018 21:28
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skasion posted:The way I see it Gandalf the Grey has mostly forgotten what the hell he is supposed to be doing and it takes the arrival of the ring on the scene to catalyze him into fulfilling his mission again. I forget if this agrees with The Quest of Erebor/Appendix take but I really don’t see Gandalf as having a master plan stretching back to the beginning of The Hobbit. He‘s a general do-gooder type and will gladly help the dwarves take back the mountain if he can, because dragons are bad news, but I don’t see him as working constantly against Sauron for 2000 years. I’ve always liked to think that the blue wizards who hosed off south and east did enough to stop the lands of the Easterlings from sending overwhelming reinforcements to Sauron against Gondor, but as far as I know there’s no evidence any which way.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:30
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Whoops about whom Gandalf was aligned with. Establishing a country hostile to Mordor right on Sauron's flank did end up dividing his forces during the war, even if that wasn't the intention. Removing the ambiguously Enemy-aligned Smaug from play was certainly a foreseeably useful move.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:41
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skasion posted:The way I see it Gandalf the Grey has mostly forgotten what the hell he is supposed to be doing and it takes the arrival of the ring on the scene to catalyze him into fulfilling his mission again. I forget if this agrees with The Quest of Erebor/Appendix take but I really don’t see Gandalf as having a master plan stretching back to the beginning of The Hobbit. He‘s a general do-gooder type and will gladly help the dwarves take back the mountain if he can, because dragons are bad news, but I don’t see him as working constantly against Sauron for 2000 years. You don't think restoring Thorin in Erebor as undisputed High King of the Dwarves wouldn't have/didn't come in handy in the War? The risks he took (with others lives) had clear and obvious payoffs, regardless of whatever general do-goodery you ascribe to him.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:48
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Pretty sure the appendix describe a northern front against Sauron during the Ring war.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:49
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Gandalf doesn't care about Lake people. He'll happily watch them burn if it means he gets a strong dwarf army and +2 axes for his woodsmen.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:54
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Vavrek posted:Gandalf Day? On February 14 3019, Gandalf the White arose in power from his death and defeat to walk the stones of Middle-Earth again. Also Frodo looked into Galadriel’s mirror and, depending on which screenplay you’re following, may or may not have boned the enchantress queen of Lothlorien.
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Feb 13, 2018 22:12
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euphronius posted:Pretty sure the appendix describe a northern front against Sauron during the Ring war. Yep. Bard's son or grandson died in it, for starters. Brand? Time for a reread, I think, my memory's gone to poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2018 22:21
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Could any of you fine folk help a fellow out with the proper pronunciations of some names? I'm almost certain that I'm pronouncing the following wrong: Amarië (Am-are-ee-ey) Anairë (An-air-ey) Elenwë (Ell-en-way) Míriel (Mere-ee-ell) I am no linguist, sadly. 
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Feb 13, 2018 23:02
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Jimmy Noskill posted:Could any of you fine folk help a fellow out with the proper pronunciations of some names? I'm almost certain that I'm pronouncing the following wrong: Anairë should be (An-ire-ey). Second syllable rhymes with “fire”. In Quenya, diphthongs always sound more like the first letter and glide into the second, so “ai” is never pronounced with an eh sound: Dunedain rhymes with line, not train. The others are ok I think. skasion fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 23:14
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English vowel pronunciations/values are the stupidest loving thing. More like Great Vowel poo poo imho
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Feb 13, 2018 23:40
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sweet geek swag posted:I doubt that the Great Goblin would have resisted Sauron once he openly declared himself. Helping Thorin in general was a pretty dubious decision on Gandalf's part though. The goblins would have toppled to Gandalf is the CIA. Did you know that the illegal trade in pipe weed was started by an itinerant wizard?
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Feb 14, 2018 13:54
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It's also interesting that powerful characters resist Gandalf's meddling. Denethor stubbornly refuses to accept most of Gandalf's counsel and while the reasons for that are layered I think at least part of it has to do with Denethor being an exceptionally powerful person with a will like iron and he does not trust the meddling of Gandalf. Gandalf mentions that the blood of Numenor runs almost pure in Denethor and that blood gives him powers of foresight and wisdom. He considers himself (rightly!) a rival in that sense to people like Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. Saruman resists Gandalf for similar reasons. There's a strong undercurrent of Denethor/Saruman basically considering themselves Gandalf's equal and being unwilling to accept his counsel at least in part on those merits because I get the sense that they think he's almost talking down to them as though how he tries to help weaker folks. I think where Gandalf errs with both of them is he comes at them like a counselor. That style works on people willing to accept Gandalf's superior intelligence/wisdom but for people who consider themselves Gandalf's equal they feel threatened by his approach. If he was ever going to convince Saruman/Denethor of their wrongs, he was going to need to do it in a way where they independently came to that conclusion without his direct intervention. They were too proud and powerful individually to accept his counsel otherwise.
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Feb 14, 2018 19:06
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I don't have any textual support for this, but I can't help but notice that both Denethor and Saruman have previously had their perceptions affected by Sauron by using the Palantir. Isn't it possible that Gandalf simply doesn't have the opportunity to undermine the influence of a greater power that has been working on them both for much longer and with considerable subtlety?
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Feb 14, 2018 19:31
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I've been reading the Hobbit and I'm really enjoying it so far. I've never read it before and my only experience was the films but it's really eye opening. One thing that's jumped out already is how the films make Thorin such an rear end in a top hat from the beginning when in the book he's not a dick, just very much wanting to get the journey started. Excited to see other differences like this as I go. edit: This is as of the end of the first chapter. I'll keep posting my thoughts as I read, assuming that's something y'all are interested in. axeil fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Feb 14, 2018 |
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Feb 14, 2018 19:41
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Ashcans posted:I don't have any textual support for this, but I can't help but notice that both Denethor and Saruman have previously had their perceptions affected by Sauron by using the Palantir. Isn't it possible that Gandalf simply doesn't have the opportunity to undermine the influence of a greater power that has been working on them both for much longer and with considerable subtlety? I think that's certainly part of it but I feel like Sauron is just working on pride/discontent that was already there for Denethor/Saruman. Basically Sauron made it worse, but it was there before him. Gandalf even warns Pippin before talking to Denethor that Denethor is a different kind of King from Theoden and is much wiser/deadlier.
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Feb 14, 2018 19:49
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Ginette Reno posted:Saruman resists Gandalf for similar reasons. There's a strong undercurrent of Denethor/Saruman basically considering themselves Gandalf's equal and being unwilling to accept his counsel at least in part on those merits because I get the sense that they think he's almost talking down to them as though how he tries to help weaker folks. Saruman considers himself Gandalf's superior (and so does Gandalf up until their big confrontation), but he's always been twitchy about it since that ambiguous Valar remark before the wizards left Valinor. I think he'd have issues with Gandalf however Gandalf behaved because he's got a thing about status and having to be the wizard in charge, which may feed into the idea he seems to get that he can steer and manage Sauron. Denethor, I think, suspects (correctly) that Gandalf wants to bring back the line of kings, which would shunt him and his adored heir down the status ladder to actual Steward instead of effective ruler (and possibly not even that if a new king decides he doesn't want a hereditary Steward).
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Feb 14, 2018 20:30
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axeil posted:edit: This is as of the end of the first chapter. I'll keep posting my thoughts as I read, assuming that's something y'all are interested in. Hell yeah. I had it read to me by my mum when I was tiny, so seeing someone's reaction who's new to it really interests me.
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Feb 14, 2018 20:33
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