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*clearing throat awkwardly* unless you try to assert weird poo poo
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Feb 15, 2018 23:05
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I mean, to say Miki was succesful in rallying the devilmen in defense of humanity is valid. To say she succeeded in showing humanity was worth saving or was good just seems like intentionally burying your head in the sand where she was murdered and butchered for saying that maybe Akira wasn't an awful person. Especially since her death is what leads Akira, our moral counterpoint to Ryo's "human are scum and deserve to die", to kill humans straight up for the first time (unless I missed other murder earlier)
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Feb 15, 2018 23:44
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This might be kind of a stretch, but I regard the presence of a second moon at the end of the show to be an indicator that it's not all futile. This process repeats itself and ends with everyone dead or in despair, but each time it occurs, there's a visible and permanent change. If a piece of the shattered earth can remain as a testament to Satan's folly, who's to say some other lasting change could not also occur?
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Feb 16, 2018 00:09
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AnEdgelord posted:Ok fine I was trying to keep it brief and didn't want to add three extra paragraphs on to discuss moral philosophy since it wasn't related to my central point and I wanted to try to keep it brief. You will be hearing from the adtrw legal team *bangs on pots and pans*
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Feb 16, 2018 01:00
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AnEdgelord posted:The ending of that scene is a bunch of people parading around with dismembered pieces of miki's body on sticks. This is the same kind of framing G.R.R.M. used in ASOIAF after the Red Wedding where Rob's body was sewn to his wolf's head and paraded around. The kind of message that framing sends is of the character getting thoroughly and completely owned. That both scenes are the culmination of a naive character being swallowed up by the cruelty of the world is no coincidence. I saw it as more of a "jesus on the cross" kind of thing, except that miki's death was less a "she died for mankind" and more "she died because she was too good for mankind" kind of thing. She wasn't naive, she knew exactly what the consequences of her actions would be, she literally watched it happen to others in real time and sent them encouragement as lynch mobs formed on their doorsteps. Her death signifies that humanity is now too far gone to be worth saving, not that it never was I'm also Jewish though so don't take the jesus thing too seriously from me, I only half know what I'm talking about there
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Feb 16, 2018 01:38
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I might as well add things can change. Had Satan been defeated and the Demons destroyed before they wiped out Humanity, it's unlikely that God would have destroyed the world. He seems to only do so when Satan wins.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:01
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It's also entirely possible given the nature of Satan and the Moons that this is the first go around for this version, and that Satan will remember this defeat subconsciously and thus the next go around will have a less stupid plan.
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Feb 16, 2018 05:44
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Aurora posted:personally i think it's fine to discuss thoughts you have on a series even if i may disagree with them I disagree with this statement.
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Feb 16, 2018 13:16
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Maybe Devilman crybaby doesn't have cycles because it's a new thing
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Feb 16, 2018 16:12
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AnEdgelord posted:The problem is when you get into the symbolism of the act, it gets even worse, The Mikis and the Rappers at that point ultimately represent the goodness of humanity and are immediately and unequivocally destroyed by everything awful about humanity as represented by the mob. There is no redemption, nor even the possibility of redemption, for anyone involved. The entire scene is just one long 'and here is why Satan/Ryo is right about humanity'. The whole scene is just a barrel of black pitch poured over any notion that humanity is worth saving. You bring up the Book of Job, but, uh, how about the Book of Revelations? The literal interpretation is that out of billions of people 144,000 are worth saving at the end. The metaphorical interpretation aligns with the themes of the show. This is kinda  that you have such an issue with this, blaming the show for a concept as old as time.edit: like you are blaming the apocalyptic show with direct references to the actual apocalyptic Revelations, of being apocalyptic, lmao AnacondaHL fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 17:00
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AnacondaHL posted:You bring up the Book of Job, but, uh, how about the Book of Revelations? In revelation the good keep faith with God and are rewarded in the end while the wicked are punished and cast out. In Devilman the good are punished for their faith and the wicked are left to run riot. They are almost a complete thematic inverse. I don't care about apocalyptic themes, I like stories with apocalyptic themes, what I care about is the raw misanthropy the show exudes where the possibility of salvation, redemption, and a brighter future are spat upon.
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Feb 16, 2018 17:26
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AnEdgelord posted:In revelation the good keep faith with God and are rewarded in the end while the wicked are punished and cast out. Ahaha this is not even close to what happens. Sorry, but I'm calling you out: you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:35
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AnacondaHL posted:Ahaha this is not even close to what happens. Sorry, but I'm calling you out: you have no idea what you're talking about. Ok not only are you wrong but you are so wrong that I literally just need to post direct quotes from the book of revelation to disprove this bullshit "Revelations Chapter 21' posted:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed
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Feb 16, 2018 19:52
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AnEdgelord posted:In revelation the good keep faith with God and are rewarded in the end while the wicked are punished and cast out. In Devilman the good are punished for their faith and the wicked are left to run riot. They are almost a complete thematic inverse. I don't care about apocalyptic themes, I like stories with apocalyptic themes, what I care about is the raw misanthropy the show exudes where the possibility of salvation, redemption, and a brighter future are spat upon. I think failure does not imply the author's disdain for goodness. There is a triumphant theme playing, as they try to pass the baton. It's the soundtrack equivalent of cheering them on as they try to save humanity. Game of Thrones may present people getting gruesomely murdered as failure (and its soundtrack accordingly plays the theme of the Lannisters when the Starks lose), but Devilman does not. It applauds the Mikis and Akira for trying their hardest, and failing gloriously. They do not regret dying for what they believe is right: "I'm glad we ran." ninjewtsu posted:I saw it as more of a "jesus on the cross" kind of thing, except that miki's death was less a "she died for mankind" and more "she died because she was too good for mankind" kind of thing. She wasn't naive, she knew exactly what the consequences of her actions would be, she literally watched it happen to others in real time and sent them encouragement as lynch mobs formed on their doorsteps. Her death signifies that humanity is now too far gone to be worth saving, not that it never was Turning them into martyrs is maybe taking it too for, but I think this is basically on the right track. There are very few heroes in the Bible who actually get to live a good life. Moses doesn't enter the Promised Land, Samson kills himself along with his enemies, Jesus is tortured and humiliated, and finally dies an agonising death for the sins of mankind. Why should Devilman's heroes be any luckier? AnEdgelord posted:Ok not only are you wrong but you are so wrong that I literally just need to post direct quotes from the book of revelation to disprove this bullshit Yeah, not sure what they're talking about. The book may be vague, but not that vague. You're kind of leaving out that all humans are probably undead at this point since there's been a massive war with the devil. Kind of irrelevant to Devilman, though. Imo, it's not the revelations apocalypse unless Jesus shows up.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:56
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The end of Devilman Crybaby is happy, God creates New Heaven and New Earth without Satan or demons, that's why there's two moons
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Feb 16, 2018 20:07
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i thought there was visual implication of the cycle in the acidtrip image flurries from the beginning of the show or something, but i might be thinking of it just showing satan's previous defeat
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Feb 16, 2018 20:09
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ninjewtsu posted:i thought there was visual implication of the cycle in the acidtrip image flurries from the beginning of the show or something, but i might be thinking of it just showing satan's previous defeat I think the most clear indication of the cycle is Akira trying to pass the baton (repeated over and over again). There is also the Devilman TV show, which Ryo watches at the orphanage. The existence of that show implies changes between cycles, though, not eternal punishment.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:14
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AnEdgelord posted:Ok not only are you wrong but you are so wrong that I literally just need to post direct quotes from the book of revelation to disprove this bullshit Out of context. This text occurs well after the relevant events in Devilman. Saying they contradict is wrong because they aren't comparable.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:17
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"Hey, Devilman sucks because it contradicts the Revelation story" *posts quote of events that occur 1000 years later*"
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Feb 16, 2018 20:18
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i would be interested in hearing what really happens in revelations because i really have no clue
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Feb 16, 2018 20:24
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AnacondaHL posted:Out of context. This text occurs well after the relevant events in Devilman. Saying they contradict is wrong because they aren't comparable. AnacondaHL posted:"Hey, Devilman sucks because it contradicts the Revelation story" Oh hey someone arguing in bad faith, never seen that on the internet before. These events don't occur in Devilman because Devilman and The Book of Revelation are two entirely different pieces of literature. I posted that quote because you were making extremely wrong statements about what happens in The Book of Revelation and now that I've proved that these events do indeed happen, and now you're throwing a fit because I proved you wrong.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:28
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And More posted:Yeah, not sure what they're talking about. The book may be vague, but not that vague. You're kind of leaving out that all humans are probably undead at this point since there's been a massive war with the devil. Here is what I'm talking about : Eventually old Earth is replaced by ambiguous new Earth/Heaven, so in that way Everything is "cast out", it's not some hunky dory "good wins and keeps earth, demons lose and burn in fire" story. Like everyone gets really hosed by the apocalypse regardless, and as you mention get zombified for official judgement later. Also, one of my original readings on this show was "Apocalypse, but from Satan's POV". In that case it certainly can be the Revelation's apocalypse, they just don't show the Jesus portion of it. Like, yo his apartment number is 666 it's pretty explicit.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:33
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It's not Job or Revelations. It's the song of songs cause everyone's getting mad freaky and Miko can't stop thinking about the titty.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:37
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AnEdgelord posted:Oh hey someone arguing in bad faith, never seen that on the internet before. No, your original statement of summarizing Revelation as "good happens to good, bad happens to bad" is a gross oversimplification, and you attempted to cherry pick text out of context to prove your narrative about the themes of Devilman and Revelation being opposite, when I argue they are surprisingly aligned well.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:39
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And More posted:I think failure does not imply the author's disdain for goodness. There is a triumphant theme playing, as they try to pass the baton. It's the soundtrack equivalent of cheering them on as they try to save humanity. Game of Thrones may present people getting gruesomely murdered as failure (and its soundtrack accordingly plays the theme of the Lannisters when the Starks lose), but Devilman does not. It applauds the Mikis and Akira for trying their hardest, and failing gloriously. They do not regret dying for what they believe is right: "I'm glad we ran." That theme's meant to be melancholy, not triumphant. It intersperses Ryo's and Akira's battle with Ryo's fundamental inability to sympathize or cooperate with others until it's too late to take back his mistakes.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:51
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AnacondaHL posted:No, your original statement of summarizing Revelation as "good happens to good, bad happens to bad" is a gross oversimplification, and you attempted to cherry pick text out of context to prove your narrative about the themes of Devilman and Revelation being opposite, when I argue they are surprisingly aligned well. Holy poo poo is that some serious misunderstanding of what I said. You seem to think that I made Revelation out to be an episode of Carebears. Yes the actual events of the book are horrific and torturous for basically every single person on Earth but at the end of Revelation good wins and evil loses. The holy city is established and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The events leading up to that are immaterial to my point. In Devilman however no such ending occurs, rather than establishing the holy city God simply resets everything back to zero presumably because the earth is little more than a recursive torture chamber for Satan. That the larger mythos of the series establish this cycle as fact rather than speculation also reinforces that idea.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:51
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Oxxidation posted:That theme's meant to be melancholy, not triumphant. It intersperses Ryo's and Akira's battle with Ryo's fundamental inability to sympathize or cooperate with others until it's too late to take back his mistakes. The theme From Here to Eternity is not melancholy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs-PzathtLA It plays during both baton scenes, and is accompanied by children cheerfully passing batons to one another. It's slowly rising in intensity. You expect it to grow even more intense, but then it cuts off before that moment because Lucifer doesn't pick up the drat baton. And More fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 21:17
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so i've been kind of thinking on the queer discussion and i realized something about what Crybaby's trying to say about love both sides of the argument are completely missing the point. the argument itself is missing the point. it fundamentally does not matter if Miki and Miko are lesbians or not, because the whole goddamn message of Crybaby about love is that romantic love and platonic love are the same emotion expressed slightly differently and equally valid and beautiful. this theme is way, way more blunt with Ryo and Akira, but the show uses Miki and Miko as a deliberate parallel to them to hammer this theme home: love is love is love is love, regardless of who loves who or how. the queerness is deliberate (this is an explicitly LGBT-friendly message) but it's going a fair bit more galaxy brain than "lesbians are cool" and reducing it to "are lesbians cool or not in the show's view" is totally loving missing the entire point. e: like, that's why that whole argument was so frustrating to read for me. it's this show's "is Deckard a replicant" question, in that the very nature of the question misses the fundamental point of the work being discussed, except it's even worse because in this case there's obvious political baggage attached (which I have skin in, no less, being LGBT myself). WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 21:26
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AnEdgelord posted:Oh hey someone arguing in bad faith, never seen that on the internet before. Please treat your fellow posters with respect, thank you.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:29
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:so i've been kind of thinking on the queer discussion and i realized something about what Crybaby's trying to say about love Hell, I agree that people who keep saying they aren't lesbians are missing the whole point of the show
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Feb 16, 2018 21:36
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Go Nagai didn’t father the Miko is a lesbian genre for this kind of talk to take place
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Feb 16, 2018 21:58
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Nina posted:Go Nagai didn’t father the Miko is a lesbian genre for this kind of talk to take place Yeah, Go Nagai fathered the Satan is two lesbians genre.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:09
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AnEdgelord posted:Holy poo poo is that some serious misunderstanding of what I said. You seem to think that I made Revelation out to be an episode of Carebears. Yes the actual events of the book are horrific and torturous for basically every single person on Earth but at the end of Revelation good wins and evil loses. The holy city is established and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The events leading up to that are immaterial to my point. Oh, you want to pivot to the linear/cyclical timeline arguments? Sure I can do that. Your perceived linear reading of Revelation with a defined endpoint is only one of many metaphorical interpretations, and imho one that ignores quite a bit of what is alluded to in the final chapters combined with mistranslation into English. In short, there is nothing that defines this end as the hard stop endpoint, and with all the allusions back to creation and even Genesis 1:1 itself, I'd argue there is more to suggest that Revelation does describe the end of a loop rather than a single linear thing. One of the worst mistranslations is "In the beginning,", implying singular exclusivity, when it's more accurate to say "A beginning," singular but not exclusive. So no, the fact that Devilman shows a cyclical pattern doesn't mean it's misaligned thematically. Once again, if this is the story of the Apocalypse from Satan's viewpoint, why would Satan know about the new Earth, and subsequently, why would this series show that outcome? It wouldn't, and doesn't. Even consider: if Lucifer is the ultimate example of the worst insubordination, what kind of punishment would you deem fit? Doesn't an eternal damnation loop of false hope and power before being repeatedly crushed every time sound about right?
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Feb 16, 2018 22:33
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AnacondaHL posted:Oh, you want to pivot to the linear/cyclical timeline arguments? Sure I can do that. Quite frankly that read is not particularly compelling. There are other interpretations of the Bible yes but every interpretation ultimately can be countered by another. For example, the modern Christian conception of a soul ascending to heaven or descending to hell has little textual support in the Bible, instead the 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Lake of Fire' describe places that will exist after the second coming and will be inhabited by the resurrected Dead. According to this reading Revelation is this mass (bodily) resurrection of all the dead in the world, and that only the void waits for the dead until this Resurrection takes place. This interpretation necessitates a linear sequence of events since it means the bible is essentially about undoing the Curse of Adam (Death) and to say that humanity successfully frees themselves from the curse only to have it all happen again is counter to the overall message of salvation that this reading emphasizes. quote:So no, the fact that Devilman shows a cyclical pattern doesn't mean it's misaligned thematically. Once again, if this is the story of the Apocalypse from Satan's viewpoint, why would Satan know about the new Earth, and subsequently, why would this series show that outcome? It wouldn't, and doesn't. Except that I reject that the story is about the Apocalypse from Satan's viewpoint, and instead believe that it is a peek inside his cell. quote:Even consider: if Lucifer is the ultimate example of the worst insubordination, what kind of punishment would you deem fit? Doesn't an eternal damnation loop of false hope and power before being repeatedly crushed every time sound about right? Perhaps its my atheism but this sounds far more like petty tyrant god of Gnosticism than any traditional Christian reading on God. To torture one being by roping in an entire world to experience its own destruction over and over again is extremely petty.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:05
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I hate this show now.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:07
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100 degrees Calcium posted:I hate this show now. My job here is done
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Feb 16, 2018 23:08
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I could be wrong, but IIRC, Gnosticism does actually get namedropped in Lady. I think it’s around the time that the manga’s making a (reasonably compelling) argument that the existence of Hell in itself proves that God is not a worthy ruler of the world.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:08
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DisDisDis posted:from Lady from last page
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Feb 16, 2018 23:11
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DisDisDis posted:from last page Ah, whoops, missed that. Yep, thought so. For the record, it’s living in hell (plus a marathon gently caress session with Satan’s female half) that convinces Akira to team up with Ryo and declare war on God at the end of Lady.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:14
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Hi I watched this yesterday since it looked like it was 2d and not one of those lovely cgi Netflix animes. I wasn't really...prepared. I have some questions... 1) What is the significance of the earring one of the rap guys gives to Miki and says it will protect her, then it doesn't protect her or Akira? Satan kind of gasped at it but I wasn't sure if that meant anything. I also wondered if it was supposed to be a parallel to Koda wearing his boyfriend's pendant or Miko carrying Butterfly's glasses, but I couldn't figure out what it meant in that context. 2) Did Miko eat Butterfly or did he die at the party? Was it his body or the rapist's she was keeping at her apartment? 3) This isn't really a question so much as a comment. I liked the show a lot, and short animes like this tend to be really tight, but I was confused as to the point of Miko and Koda. Miko never gets beyond "mad at other girl for being better at running, then in the 2nd-to-last episode (but also likes her)". Then she dies. Koda has the whole death of his boyfriend, then he gets a little restless staying at Akira's hideout and says gently caress it, I'll just be a demon to survive? Then he dies. I feel like there was some additional elaboration on these two that was missing. But maybe I am not understanding something. I really liked Miko's snapdragons turning into little skulls when they dried up (something snapdragons actually do). 4) Aside from Akira, are all demon-possessed people sinners in a very strict sense (Miko going to the party and being jealous, Taro sneaking on the computer to look at party boobs)? Are there any innocent people that become demons? Akira's dad said he wanted to eat his mom, but I wasn't sure if that was the demon talking or not. I think most people might say Taro was innocent, but I am trying to gauge the in-universe definition of sin. Most of the demons seem to come from the party or other demon-heavy locations like the jungle, but I think Taro becoming a demon is trying to show that because of how humans reacted, demons are now everywhere. I'm not sure how Akira's dad fits into this though. Were both the parents "sinners" for abandoning their son? 5) This show kills 2 cats and 1 dog so I don't think I can recommend it to others due to its extreme violence.  e: 6) What was the deal with that not-Butterfly guy in the clothing shop that tried to get the rappers arrested? turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 23:15
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