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MikeCrotch posted:People always seem surprised that Green parties are actually full of right wing reactionaries, just right wing reactionaries who want to live in The Shire instead of bourbon France I honestly believe that environmentalism is inherently reactionary. People think its 'leftist' because its anti-capitalist but you could say the same about monarchists. Not that reducing environmental damage is bad, though. I just haven't met a self professed conservationist who isn't a Malthusian psycho if you get them to open up about details
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Feb 19, 2018 13:25
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Larry Parrish posted:People think its 'leftist' because its anti-capitalist but you could say the same about monarchists. Not that reducing environmental damage is bad, though. I think it's more that leftism acknowledges that Capitalism is wrecking the environment and that leftist policies are necessarily, if not explicitly, going to be environmental anyway.
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Feb 19, 2018 13:29
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Environmentalists aren't all Malthusians, but it's definitely a strange bedfellows situation. Strident socialists and Hobbit cosplayers and vegans and conservationist hunters and nimbys all barely tolerating each other to stop a fracking well.
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Feb 19, 2018 13:30
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The Shire had a dietary culture with too much meat & dairy.
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Feb 19, 2018 13:31
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Keep in mind i live in a strange area that is both a white flight area and a place where trust fund hippies and developer assholes end up. So i guess a lot of my perceptions are tinted by people I grew up around usually being the most right wing example od something possible
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Feb 19, 2018 13:45
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Larry Parrish posted:I just haven't met a self professed conservationist who isn't a Malthusian psycho if you get them to open up about details they seem to be primarily interested in reducing people's standard of living. nominally to preserve their standard of living.
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Feb 19, 2018 13:51
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Karl Barks posted:actually the recount fundraiser ruled, and so does jill stein Didn't that raise more money than any of the Democrat's fundraising efforts since the election?
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Feb 19, 2018 14:32
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Larry Parrish posted:Everyone i knew who voted for her was a detoxifying magnet retard who was under the impression she believed that stuff. So I guess she was smeared by her voters??? as I understand, it was a right wing smear as she merely said sth about how people would trust the vaccines more if the fda wasn’t so susceptible to regulatory capture
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Feb 19, 2018 15:44
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Larry Parrish posted:I honestly believe that environmentalism is inherently reactionary. People think its 'leftist' because its anti-capitalist but you could say the same about monarchists. Not that reducing environmental damage is bad, though. I just haven't met a self professed conservationist who isn't a Malthusian psycho if you get them to open up about details A lot of environmentalists imo are primarily motivated by the aesthetics of natural beauty, and aren't so much interested in ecological systems and the way that they interact with each other to sustain life and make it worth living. Like, you could be an "environmentalist" with a New England coastline who protests the installation of off-shore windfarms because it obstructs your view, even though windfarms would make our power grid much less damaging to ecological systems. NIMBYism is always about offsetting the costs of change onto somebody else, which is also why the only solution neoliberals can come up with for pollution is to let companies buy off carbon credits that will enable them to continue polluting while raising the cost of entry for smaller firms that can't afford to pollute.
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Feb 19, 2018 15:51
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:A lot of environmentalists imo are primarily motivated by the aesthetics of natural beauty, and aren't so much interested in ecological systems and the way that they interact with each other to sustain life and make it worth living. Like, you could be an "environmentalist" with a New England coastline who protests the installation of off-shore windfarms because it obstructs your view, even though windfarms would make our power grid much less damaging to ecological systems. NIMBYism is always about offsetting the costs of change onto somebody else, which is also why the only solution neoliberals can come up with for pollution is to let companies buy off carbon credits that will enable them to continue polluting while raising the cost of entry for smaller firms that can't afford to pollute. Yeah thats a good point. Im from california so mysteriously our enviromentalists are all anti-nuclear and anti-logging but mysteriously dont want to tear down the hydroelectric dams and fix our dying rivers or the polluted farmlands or whatever. Its all about keeping Yosemite an effective tourist destination and poo poo.
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Feb 19, 2018 16:13
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Goon Danton posted:Environmentalists aren't all Malthusians, but it's definitely a strange bedfellows situation. Strident socialists and Hobbit cosplayers and vegans and conservationist hunters and nimbys all barely tolerating each other to stop a fracking well. I should point out that in places like the UK and Germany where there are actual vaguely effective left wing parties, there basically aren't any left wing people left in Green parties, meaning they have been given wholly over to the right-wing middle aged NIMBY types.
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Feb 19, 2018 16:20
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ajamu baraka is cool https://twitter.com/ajamubaraka/status/963805088748900352 https://twitter.com/ajamubaraka/status/959560558583435269
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Feb 19, 2018 16:38
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he's not wrong
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Feb 19, 2018 16:43
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Jeb! Repetition posted:America will be safe when every interaction is a Mexican standoff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5V2ZbX4i4
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Feb 19, 2018 16:48
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Algund Eenboom posted:ajamu baraka is cool he should have led the ticket imho
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Feb 19, 2018 17:25
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Baraka from Mortal Kombat and the Witcher? Truly the gamer candidates.
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Feb 19, 2018 17:52
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MikeCrotch posted:I should point out that in places like the UK and Germany where there are actual vaguely effective left wing parties, there basically aren't any left wing people left in Green parties, meaning they have been given wholly over to the right-wing middle aged NIMBY types. This is also true of Mexico's Verde Party. I can't think of a single leftwing green party, at best you get centrists.
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Feb 19, 2018 18:14
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Dreddout posted:This is also true of Mexico's Verde Party. As a complete aside, how would a Californian go about learning what Mexican politics? Whenever I think about it I'm shocked how little I know about our non-boring neighbor.
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Feb 19, 2018 22:58
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Grand Prize Winner posted:As a complete aside, how would a Californian go about learning what Mexican politics? Whenever I think about it I'm shocked how little I know about our non-boring neighbor. learning spanish is a good first step
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Feb 20, 2018 04:25
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https://twitter.com/rechelon/status/965695659180359680
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Feb 20, 2018 05:01
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Prav posted:they seem to be primarily interested in reducing people's standard of living. nominally to preserve their standard of living. MikeCrotch posted:I should point out that in places like the UK and Germany where there are actual vaguely effective left wing parties, there basically aren't any left wing people left in Green parties, meaning they have been given wholly over to the right-wing middle aged NIMBY types.
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Feb 20, 2018 05:22
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Who is that loser and what is the garbage he is posting Is it u
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Feb 20, 2018 05:24
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wtf does this even mean
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Feb 20, 2018 05:31
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I loving love William Gillis.  (Also, read the rest of the thread.)
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Feb 20, 2018 05:49
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Environmentalism isn't necessarily consumerate with Communist ideals insofar as the workers believe maintenance of the environment is more important than the needs of the people via expansion of industry/infrastructure/etc. at the cost of the environment. The is also nominally the case in Capitalism as maintenance of the environment could be fiscally beneficial depending on the profit metrics and schedules of returns. Environmentalism is basically tangential to both and only matters if long term ecology is valued in either system.
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Feb 20, 2018 06:27
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rudatron posted:Who is that loser and what is the garbage he is posting nice, rudatron does irony now
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Feb 20, 2018 06:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zbi0XmGtMw
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Feb 20, 2018 06:33
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If theres one thing the left shouldnt be doing its building solidarity across the proletariat - some twitter retard
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Feb 20, 2018 06:40
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i do indeed 'like to party' also i didn't know the six flags old man theme was an actual song, thank you.
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Feb 20, 2018 06:43
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Ormi posted:I loving love William Gillis. he's straight up wrong on left-wing 'grifters' earning more than right-wing 'grifters' - wing nut welfare on the right is notorious and widespread, and it's like every new week there's a new right-wing guy running the circuit, getting free media coverage, and so on. meanwhile, to be out and out leftists is basically to be ignored. compare the media coverage of trump vs. bernie and it's pretty obvious that the grift potential on the left is...really low. but running through the whole thing is the supposition that friends = fascism, and that the only thing that not fascism is an atomized existence. it's pure liberalism.
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Feb 20, 2018 10:26
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Damned mysterious that the guy critical of the left is a capitalist
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Feb 20, 2018 13:00
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William Gillis is a second-generation anarchist who's worked as an activist in countless projects and capacities since getting involved in the lead-up to N30 (the "Battle in Seattle"). He studies high energy physics and has held a deep fascination with the egalitarian potential of markets since 2003. His writing can be found primarily at Human Iterations.
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Feb 20, 2018 13:31
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Larry Parrish posted:Damned mysterious that the guy critical of the left is a capitalist "market anarchist"
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Feb 20, 2018 13:45
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so he's an ancap? lmao
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Feb 20, 2018 13:55
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he seems alright i guess, somewhat testy though i don't know the guy.SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:so he's an ancap? he wrote this: https://c4ss.org/content/50151 haven't read yet (hah) but looks interesting BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 14:02
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"egalitarian potential of markets" 
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Feb 20, 2018 14:08
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There's also Monica Moorehead of the unreconstructed Stalinist Workers World Party (WWP) if you want to vote for the tankie. Cher is the only moral Communist candidate.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:16
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There's also Monica Moorehead of the unreconstructed Stalinist Workers World Party (WWP) if you want to vote for the tankie. quote:Workers World Party (WWP) is a revolutionary Marxist–Leninist communist party in the United States,[1] founded in 1959 by a group led by Sam Marcy of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP).[2] Marcy and his followers split from the United States SWP in 1958 over a series of long-standing differences, among them Marcy's group's support for Henry A. Wallace's Progressive Party in 1948, the positive view they held of the Chinese Revolution led by Mao Zedong and their defense of the 1956 Soviet intervention in Hungary, all of which the SWP opposed. literally tankies
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Feb 20, 2018 14:19
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the germany thread in D&D is pretty good because germany has a decent-sized green party and everyone in there despises them for being upper-middle class types who are exactly this. also there are a ton of them in baden-wurttemberg. It's my impression that European Green parties never were leftist to begin with, they were always a refuge for the sort of self-styled "policy wonks" who think themselves above ideology, the same people who in the US take the form of various Ossofs.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:21
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so i'm reading that gillis essay on antifascism, and he needs to get to the point. this is a slog where he's using the page to work out his own ideas at the cost of my patience. there's some interesting stuff in here though: quote:It’s not a good thing that monopolistic tech giants are making precedents by removing people from the internet. Huge scale corporate censorship may not be state censorship, but it’s no less uncheckable. And you’d better believe it’ll be turned on anarchists to the roaring approval of the same liberals and conservatives now whining about the rights of nazis. It’s not a good thing when copyright law or norms are expanded dramatically to merely inconvenience a few alt-right trolls. And when leftists cheer for “kicking Russian trolls off twitter” what they’re really cheering for is the loving nationalization of the internet — a Richard Spencer wet-dream. Such a nationalization would be a rollback of the most important victory us internationalists have ever had. Solutions to the dominance of nazi trolls look like Mastodon — a decentralized open source social network where freedom of association from the bottom up marginalizes nazis — not sweeping universal edicts from authorities on high. he sometimes lets in some stinkers like this (in context of the right being more violent than the left): quote:I’m not particularly interested in defending the left at large, I’m no fan of it and there are statist communists who worship regimes just as horrific and murderous as fascist ones, but the disparity here is profound. quote:It’s a sad reality that whole point to libertarianism for many is a simplistic elitism and amoralism. A code of rules (property rights) that one can blindly adhere to without much cognitive overhead and then ignore all other ethical considerations or complications. The modern core libertarian demographic is infamously slightly intellectual white boys – who in their worst moments just want to dwell in the protective simplicities of their privilege and ignore the pleas of those oppressed in complex and challenging ways. quote:Additionally, since antifa are overwhelmingly anarchists they’ve recruited primarily through the meatspace anarchist community/movement. The anarchist milieu is far more of a closed or richly tied network than the Alt Right. We live together, we work together. This closeness in many dimensions has historically provided a kind of solidity that at least to some degree impedes infection. We’re able to enforce certain norms, culture, politics, etc. This has all kinds of dangers and downsides as well as upsides. The alt-right, despite the neoreactionary fetish for “community” has absolutely nothing comparable. And so we’re fighting a truly bizarre war where the explicit fascists are utilizing perhaps more anarchist or at least fluid means — amorphous networks, anonymity, swarm tactics — against an anarchist movement that has retreated to solidity, clear boundaries, highly tied community, etc. What they pine loudly for — identity, belonging, community, solidity — is what we already have (and have discovered the downsides to). At the same time they are leveraging what should be our advantages. then when he says: "so, should anarchists embrace alt-right memewar tactics and just lie all the time?" NO! he goes on and on about how anarchists don't do anything new and are too focused and insular, then calls for them to... stay focused and insular. and don't work with the communists. communists are bad bad bad. just as bad as nazis.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:09
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