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Mr Shiny Pants posted:Hmmm ,that the execution sucks doesn't make the idea in itself dumb.
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Feb 19, 2018 17:53
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I feel like if someone made a software developer union and called it a guild or anything other than "union," it'd be a smashing success. Screen Actors Guild
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Feb 19, 2018 17:54
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Engineer 10x Rockband Ninja Clan
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Feb 19, 2018 17:55
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"guild" sounds like a good way to attract a bunch of renaissance fair dweebs (most programmers)
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Feb 19, 2018 17:55
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rt4 posted:"guild" sounds like a good way to attract a bunch of renaissance fair dweebs (most programmers) And/or MMO enthusiasts (many programmers)
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Feb 19, 2018 17:56
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Bonus points for calling it "The Computing Guild" cause that makes it sound like a Dune reference.
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Feb 19, 2018 18:14
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Paolomania posted:Bonus points for calling it "The Computing Guild" cause that makes it sound like a Dune reference. Copyrighted, trademarked, don't steal my OC.
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Feb 19, 2018 18:45
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KoRMaK posted:Screen Actors Guild
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Feb 19, 2018 18:51
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People in Engineering, Nice Interesting Systems
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Feb 19, 2018 19:03
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Virtual Application Generators, Incorporated, of North America
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Feb 19, 2018 19:11
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Portland Sucks posted:I work in a heavily unioned industry. No loving thanks. Not only do our unioned plants produce with substantially less efficiency, but they are also typically poo poo holes in comparison to the non-unioned location because you can't tell someone in a union to even pick a loving piece of paper up off the ground without risk of having a grievance levied against you, but no one in management wants to spend additional money hiring enough unioned janitorial staff to keep things clean. I love it when lovely management runs a company into the ground and then blames it all on the workers for having the balls to ask for better pay. My company's not even unionized and I feel like it's probably heading that direction. The entire company's performance bonus policy was recently canceled (just before it was due to be paid out, of course) because one single division didn't meet profit forecasts due to executive meddling, and the C-levels decided they'd be able to mask the degree of their screw-ups by revoking all bonuses and using that money to pad out the profit numbers.
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Feb 19, 2018 19:14
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Mr Shiny Pants posted:Hmmm ,that the execution sucks doesn't make the idea in itself dumb. Same with taxes. Yeah, except that it is a pretty good indicator that it's a stupid fantasy to be clinging to. I mean, pure, strict TDD (or Agile, take your pick) is theoretically sound and offers a ton of benefits on paper, but when you have the messy constraints of the real world mucking it up, its supposed value falls apart. Uncle Bob or whoever can come in and go all no true Scottsman on how you're not doing it right, but that argument starts to fall apart after it's been tried a number of times, and it continues to fail. Everyone thinks they're smart enough to engineer it right this time, but it never seems to be the case.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:35
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B-Nasty posted:Yeah, except that it is a pretty good indicator that it's a stupid fantasy to be clinging to.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:51
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B-Nasty posted:Yeah, except that it is a pretty good indicator that it's a stupid fantasy to be clinging to. Not really, if that was true we'd never have aeroplanes because some moron jumped off the Eiffeltower because he wanted to fly. I don't have to start about guncontrol do I?
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Feb 19, 2018 20:55
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Oh my god, yes, please do start a unions and gun control derail in the loving dev thread, this should be good.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:57
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Pollyanna posted:Oh my god, yes, please do start a unions and gun control derail in the loving dev thread, this should be good. That's why I asked. 
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Feb 19, 2018 20:58
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I unironically want to see that happen for maximum chaos.
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Feb 19, 2018 21:00
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Maybe we can throw in Universal Healthcare as well? 
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Feb 19, 2018 21:06
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Honestly, if a Developer Union formed around getting the right to conceal carry at work, I think it would have a chance at succeeding.
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Feb 19, 2018 21:18
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, if a Developer Union formed around getting the right to conceal carry at work, I think it would have a chance at succeeding. No one would be filing bugs anymore, perfect software!
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Feb 19, 2018 21:22
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, if a Developer Union formed around getting the right to conceal carry at work, I think it would have a chance at succeeding. 
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Feb 19, 2018 21:23
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, if a Developer Union formed around getting the right to conceal carry at work, I think it would have a chance at succeeding. Unionize all workers and give them guns imo
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Feb 19, 2018 21:24
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If a developer union started getting any real traction it would at least of one immediate benefit. Remote work opportunities would increase significantly as companies try to employ people outside of unionized regions.
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Feb 19, 2018 21:24
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https://www.iww.org/
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Feb 19, 2018 21:27
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, if a Developer Union formed around getting the right to conceal carry at work, I think it would have a chance at succeeding. I mean if you look at the everyday carry boards like 90% of the tier 1 operator loadouts are programmers, so...
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Feb 19, 2018 21:32
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Scabs As A Service
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Feb 19, 2018 21:46
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fantastic in plastic posted:Scabs As A Service Somewhere in the Mission a serial entrepreneur just got a boner.
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Feb 19, 2018 22:05
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B-Nasty posted:Yeah, except that it is a pretty good indicator that it's a stupid fantasy to be clinging to. Both TDD and Agile are quite successful in the real world and pretty much the default way of doing things at this day and age. True, neither is a magic formula. There is skill, experience and effort involved in getting it right (for any particular situation). Perhaps it's you whose viewpoint is no-true-scotsmanish.
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Feb 19, 2018 22:13
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TDD, Agile, Unions, etc are all tools to achieve jobs. Its not the fault of the practices that applied in the wrong situation, they fail. Unions have been proven to work. People had their skulls cracked by strike breakers at the picket line to get the working conditions and status we take for granted today, and the people they unionised against are cut from the same cloth as the ones constructing gig economies, the ones making internal raises, the ones who have no loyalty to their employees beyond their immediate utility. Not that it helps when tech workers have been raised on generations worth of union bashing in media and work.
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Feb 19, 2018 22:40
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Maluco Marinero posted:Not that it helps when tech workers have been raised on generations worth of union bashing in media and work. And have a skill, that is luckily, still in demand and pays reasonably fair.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:03
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pigdog posted:Both TDD and Agile are quite successful in the real world and pretty much the default way of doing things at this day and age. How many companies are actually doing "pure, strict TDD"? I'd wager the percentage is very far away from anything resembling the "default" way it's done. Same with many Agile-ish implementations. My point was that the concepts are easy, it's the people-factor that makes them messy. Large-scale engineering of human behavior turns out to be much tougher than, well, probably almost anything, since we still haven't totally figured it out in 10,000 years. Consider me skeptical when someone says definitively that: implementing their master-plan X will make life so much better for group Y.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:09
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Speaking of TDD, my job description has this as the first bullet point: "Writes full stack Java-based web application software with RESTful services with SOA approach, as well as JUnit tests as part of TDD methodology." I suppose Grails and Groovy are "Java-based," but lol at the rest of that sentence! I think I could count the number of meaningful unit tests on one hand before I started spewing them everywhere.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:16
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B-Nasty posted:Consider me skeptical when someone says definitively that: implementing their master-plan X will make life so much better for group Y. I understand human nature and System X better than anyone, and am of sterling character. I can make it work this time and bring about the promised land, trust me. No genocides, I swear.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:23
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CPColin posted:Speaking of TDD, my job description has this as the first bullet point: "Writes full stack Java-based web application software with RESTful services with SOA approach, as well as JUnit tests as part of TDD methodology." What the hell would "RESTful services with SOA approach" be
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Feb 19, 2018 23:25
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Rubellavator posted:What the hell would "RESTful services with SOA approach" be The dream
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Feb 19, 2018 23:36
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Rubellavator posted:What the hell would "RESTful services with SOA approach" be No idea! I haven't had to figure that out yet! Meanwhile, a department-wide email and three different people have informed me within the last hour that there's birthday cake in the conference room. Just now somebody walked by with a slice of cake on a plate and asked if I wanted some. I know everybody's being polite, but god drat, if I wanted some cake I'd be in the dang conference room!
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Feb 20, 2018 00:12
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So all you union lovers, why don't you go ahead and found one? See how that goes? If you can organize enough people you can probably succeed, all you have to do is convince people to risk their cushy jobs in exchange for likely industry infamy, paying union dues, and nebulous promises about how it will actually be good for them?
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Feb 20, 2018 00:33
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My favorite part about our union is how the workers will intentionally sabotage our operations if we try to implement new measures that help our efficiency and we can't do anything about it because LOL good luck firing someone in a union. I'm imagining a unionized dev shop. Manager: Hey SE1 why are you just sitting there doing nothing? SE1: Oh well you know I finished my my user story but the dev server seems to be acting up. You should get someone to reboot the server. Manager: Oh no worries you can do it. SE1: Hitting power buttons on server hardware isn't in my responsibilities. Manager: Oh fine I'll do it. *presses button* SE2: Hey Mr. Manager I noticed you pressed that button. That is my direct responsibility I'm going to have to file a grievance for work lost due to you interfering with my responsibilities. Please pay me an additional 4 hours on my next paycheck. Portland Sucks fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 00:40
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Well to do white male engineers complaining about unions.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:44
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Love that the nightmare union scenario is having a sysadmin reboot a server instead of a developer
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Feb 20, 2018 00:47
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