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Sgt. Politeness posted:I like Sabali by Amadou & Mariam and think it might fit your theme but you're miles ahead of me with that playlist. Oh yeah, that's real good! On to the list it goes.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:38
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Killmonger's plan was pretty much 'Do to them what they did to us' in the long run.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:39
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A big part of Killmonger’s plan is that it isn’t just making sure that black folks can arm themselves, but it is just full on western style imperialism. His language makes this unambiguous. As an aside, I want to see that flashback scene with Killmongers Dad again. I remember him expressing similar ideas, but I am not sure if it is to the destructive extent that his son would have in mind; I am currently interpreting his views as someone who is doing the best he can in his position.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:48
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On a second watch he does say...and rule over them, the right way. He sounded more benevolent and wasn't talking about usurping the throne but there was still imperialism in there.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:52
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I mean, you can try to deny that there was imperialism inherent in the ideas of the dude who literally said "the sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire", but it's a losing battle.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:05
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The thing is it's a valid point that fictional characters don't have agency, but as a criticism of a work that's usually more pertinent when the stated intent of a character is at odds with the execution in a way which reveals the creator's inherent biases, for example the quintessential "no really, this female character goes around in a string bikini flaunting her tits and rear end for the viewer because she's a ~strong empowered woman~"
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Feb 20, 2018 23:16
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AV Club has an article about how good a villain Killmonger is. Also this but for Michael B Jordan 
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Feb 20, 2018 23:21
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The rhinos were really cool. I want to see more animal friends in the sequel. Jabari obviously should have some gorilla friends, but what about, like, a war giraffe? Crocodiles would be cool, too.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:22
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zoux posted:AV Club has an article about how good a villain Killmonger is. I think you posted the wrong link, that article is about how much the author ships real life actors Michael B. Jordan and Lupita Nyong'o. Or is that 
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Feb 20, 2018 23:29
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I'm guessing this is the article you meant to link: https://www.avclub.com/black-panther-finally-gives-marvel-the-supervillain-it-1823143400
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Feb 20, 2018 23:29
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Erm yes that.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:40
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Copypasting my Hot Take (tm) from CineD: I do think there's a really pertinent point to be made that crafting Killmonger as this outright villainous force to be taken down is a dangerous road to tread when the bulk of his motivations boil down -- in theory -- to wanting to improve things for oppressed people. T'Challa even has a line that goes something like "You've become just like your oppressors," which is a perspective of oppressed groups that will always make me uncomfortable. Of course, Killmonger has literally and objectively and inarguably become like his oppressors in the text, but that doesn't absolve the problematic suggestion of someone nominally fighting against systemic injustice being portrayed as "just as bad" as the system that is oppressing them. Both sides, amirite!?  But I also think it's important to acknowledge just how very, very, very, very loving much the film sympathizes with Erik Stevens. It absolutely wants us to listen to Erik with every fiber of our being, it does absolutely everything in its power to make sure the audience is as moved by Erik's motives and aims as they could possibly be. That his means are wrong doesn't mean that his ends aren't justified, and that his ends are justified doesn't mean that his means are right. I like just how much that article stresses the fact that neither T'Challa nor Erik are completely heroic or unheroic. And yet, even as the film skirts those shades of gray, it still doesn't end up quibbling about what is right and wrong. The film's ultimate stance is that there are absolutely right ways to do things and wrong ways to do things, no matter how righteous your rationales might be. And I actually like that the film ends up having T'Challa firmly take a stance about what he should do going forward. The fact that this stance is essentially a middle-ground between T'Chaka's hardcore isolationism and Killmonger's hardcore imperialism does not mean that it isn't also the right stance to take. That's a very startlingly superheroic perspective after the gamut of "everything is subjectively right or wrong depending on a billion different contexts!" narratives that both Marvel and DC have laid out recently.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:52
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https://twitter.com/MBJActivity/status/965985374676967426 so Michael B. Jordan is a total weeb.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:04
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Killmonger was right, anime is good
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Feb 21, 2018 00:05
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Nodosaur posted:https://twitter.com/MBJActivity/status/965985374676967426 Stop, we're not meant to crush on famous people this hard!
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Feb 21, 2018 00:06
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Well we all just saw him shirtless this weekend so it's too late for that.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:11
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Killmonger being right is a meme. On a 3rd watch, I feel like that should be clear.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:12
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I just got out of Black Panther and was worried that I’d be dissapointed after all the hype, but holy poo poo that may have been the best Marvel movie. I’m probably gonna see it again over my weekend.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:13
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I wonder if he prefers Digimon or Pokémon.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:13
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Rhyno posted:Stop, we're not meant to crush on famous people this hard! wrong day for that https://twitter.com/MatthewACherry/status/965986976221380609 https://twitter.com/biancaxunise/status/966042948747120640
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Feb 21, 2018 00:13
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SonicRulez posted:Killmonger being right is a meme. On a 3rd watch, I feel like that should be clear. There's some just memeing, and some using it as a catchphrase for "Everyone who doesn't agree with my view of the movie's politics is wrong", like the Twitter guy up there. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 00:15
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SonicRulez posted:Killmonger being right is a meme. On a 3rd watch, I feel like that should be clear. He does have a few very good salient points though.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:16
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Kai Tave posted:The thing is it's a valid point that fictional characters don't have agency, but as a criticism of a work that's usually more pertinent when the stated intent of a character is at odds with the execution in a way which reveals the creator's inherent biases, for example the quintessential "no really, this female character goes around in a string bikini flaunting her tits and rear end for the viewer because she's a ~strong empowered woman~" I don’t think that’s so drastically different from arguing that Killmonger’s cartoonishly evil methods are at odds with the more sympathetic aspects of his backstory, motivation, and stated agenda. I will fully admit that I’m a white person and am thus loath to weigh in too much on the particulars of these criticisms, but the film did generally feel to me like it wanted to present Killmonger as a more sympathetic and nuanced character than it succeeded at doing. Whether that reflects Coogler and Cole’s personal biases or more the constraints inherent to blockbuster superhero franchise filmmaking, I have no idea.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:27
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Killmonger was a broken man fueled by hate. Everything he said was an attempt to hide how utterly hosed he was inside. I don't see a contradiction here.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:30
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Shageletic posted:Killmonger was a broken man fueled by hate. Everything he said was an attempt to hide how utterly hosed he was inside. I don't see a contradiction here. That sums him up quite nicely. He also happened to be in a position to do something with his hate.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:31
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Shageletic posted:Killmonger was a broken man fueled by hate. Everything he said was an attempt to hide how utterly hosed he was inside. I don't see a contradiction here. This is exactly right and the scene I keep coming back to is when he comes out of the vision quest, having become vulnerable in more ways than one, and he's just screaming with rage to mask how much he hates that feeling.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:36
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I’ve been wondering why the movie has been getting so much divisive discussion about his portrayal when he’s basically extremely similar to Magneto, and his being painted as a villain has never been as divisive as Killmonger has already been. After thinking about it, it’s probably because Killmonger and Magneto tough on something more immediately real. Magneto is Jewish/Roma, but it’s used primarily as backstory and his efforts in story focus on the more fantastic element of being a mutant.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:36
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Barry Convex posted:I don’t think that’s so drastically different from arguing that Killmonger’s cartoonishly evil methods are at odds with the more sympathetic aspects of his backstory, motivation, and stated agenda. But having a villain with sympathetic qualities isn't really the same thing. The twitter guy that sparked this is basically saying that the writers could have made Killmonger a different character instead of the one they chose which, okay, that's true but it's not a failure of the writers that they didn't give this guy the story he wanted the same way it's a failure to write a strong empowered female character that's actually just shallow T&A pandering for men. The groundwork for Killmonger's "cartoonishly evil methods" are laid out in the film in plain text, they aren't unearned or out of nowhere. He's a black ops assassin who collects trophy brands for every person he kills and he specializes in destabilizing governments. That is exactly the sort of person I would expect to do the things he did, and he's exactly the sort of person I wouldn't trust to spearhead an enlightened and just armed revolution of the downtrodden and oppressed even if he makes some valid points along the way.
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Feb 21, 2018 00:48
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I mean, I feel like: 1) Armed revolution by people of color is the morally and practically correct solution to the world's problems. 2) People making movies have a moral obligation to present armed revolution as heroic and correct. 3) The capitalistic forces controlling this movie are unwilling to do this. 4) So they created an armed revolutionist who is also a ruthless and hate-filled murderer, because they were unwilling to present the ideology without covering it in something completely unpalatable. ...is a valid train of logic, even if I don't agree with the premises.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:01
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The train of logic got derailed literally on that very first line
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Feb 21, 2018 01:05
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BrianWilly posted:The train of logic got derailed literally on that very first line People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. I'm not saying revolutions can't work, or can't be justified, but saying it's literally the only way to achieve results beyond incrementalism is kinda hosed.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:08
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Arist posted:This is exactly right and the scene I keep coming back to is the vision quest Haven't seen this yet but I really hope that they don't use that spoilered term in the movie since that would be problematic on a few levels.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:11
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Arist posted:People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. I'm not saying revolutions can't work, or can't be justified, but saying it's literally the only way to achieve results beyond incrementalism is kinda hosed. It's all because of the Nazi punching meme.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:11
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EmptyVessel posted:Haven't seen this yet but I really hope that they don't use that spoilered term in the movie since that would be problematic on a few levels. They don't, i was borrowing the term from someone else who was discussing it in another thread and didn't even consider it, d'oh.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:12
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Can I just say I'm glad that M'Baku only ever went by that name and never Man-Ape? I think it was ok for Earth's Mightiest Heroes to use it because really what is the total viewership and cultural impact of that series. But leaving it out of the movie was smart.EmptyVessel posted:Haven't seen this yet but I really hope that they don't use that spoilered term in the movie since that would be problematic on a few levels. They do not, no. Though I was thinking of them at the time because the methods of the ceremony similarly make the whole thing ambiguous. Like maybe you did talk to your ancestors or maybe because you were hopped up on heart-shaped herb, buried to the point of sensory deprivation, and going light-headed from lack of oxygen you hallucinated it all. Lobok fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 01:17
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Arist posted:People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. Pretty much, yeah.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:17
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Arist posted:People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. I'm not saying revolutions can't work, or can't be justified, but saying it's literally the only way to achieve results beyond incrementalism is kinda hosed. It's an argument that would be more valid if Killmonger was being opposed by a starkly conservative T'Challa wanting to maintain the status quo, and so Killmonger's villany was being used to disparage the idea of progressive change, but since the difference between where Killmonger wants to end up and where T'Challa is at the end of the movie is no more or less than "A giant pile of dead bodies" it's a weird-rear end loving argument.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:19
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:since the difference between where Killmonger wants to end up and where T'Challa is at the end of the movie is no more or less than "A giant pile of dead bodies" it's a weird-rear end loving argument. This is just flat out wrong by Killmongers own words in the movie. T'Challa ends up in the more moderate position where Wakanda is going to take a leading role in the world. Killmonger literally wanted to conquer the world - recall "the sun will never set on the Wakanda empire." There's a wider difference than than just a giant pile of bodies. Also, I would say that T'Challa was definitely an isolationist at the start of the movie and shifted during due to what he found out about his father, his conversations with Nakia as well as Killmonger himself. mikeraskol fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 01:22
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Arist posted:People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. I'm not saying revolutions can't work, or can't be justified, but saying it's literally the only way to achieve results beyond incrementalism is kinda hosed. I tend to agree with this, but I also don’t think the film ends up clearly endorsing any solution beyond incrementalism. That’s not to say that I personally agree with the harshest leftist criticisms of the film’s ending (i.e. that T’Challa is endorsing the standard-issue technocratic liberal solution of meritocratic education as a way out of poverty and going no further), but the film ends on a deliberately ambiguous note about exactly how Wakanda is setting out to shape the broader world, and given the constraints of the shared universe in which the film is set, I think it’s reasonable to at least be skeptical about how much they’re actually going to be allowed to change the MCU status quo.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:28
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Barry Convex posted:I tend to agree with this, but I also don’t think the film ends up clearly endorsing any solution beyond incrementalism. That’s not to say that I personally agree with the harshest leftist criticisms of the film’s ending (i.e. that T’Challa is endorsing the standard-issue technocratic liberal solution of meritocratic education as a way out of poverty and going no further), but the film ends on a deliberately ambiguous note about exactly how Wakanda is setting out to shape the broader world, and given the constraints of the shared universe in which the film is set, I think it’s reasonable to at least be skeptical about how much they’re actually going to be allowed to change the MCU status quo. Honestly, that is what I am afraid of too, going into Infinity War. I am hoping that the status quo would be that Black Panther takes over the Iron Man role and Wakanda is assisting the world in rebuilding itself, instead of Wakanda being stomped into a crater by Thanos. Of course, this would be the best possible thing. https://twitter.com/Gavin4L/status/965759382565900288
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Feb 21, 2018 01:37
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