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Maybe I missed something but the smite rule is still in beta and being tested. It's not been nerfed yet. My local store only uses the character rules because they feel that the smite rules unfairly gimp certain armies and units (Grey Knights and Horrors).
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Feb 23, 2018 15:40
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Pendent posted:I don't think most of us think about the formation system at all anymore. In your post you implied how 8th's detachment system is just as broken though, which is objectively not true. There are some issues (see: Shield Captains) but they're a lot more solvable than the clusterfuck that was triptide or whatever. I guess I didn’t make my point clear: detachments are bad for the game and I think it’s likely they will continue to rise in power levels as new kits come out until they are at the same level of broken or worse than formations in 7th edition. I’m not making a commentary on why 8th is bad or whatever
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Feb 23, 2018 15:40
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Zuul the Cat posted:Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 145pts]: Cognis heavy stubber, Smoke Launchers  I hate battlescribe.
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Feb 23, 2018 15:48
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will blow your mind.
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AnEdgelord posted:Maybe I missed something but the smite rule is still in beta and being tested. It's not been nerfed yet. It's "beta" but it's been adopted basically universally, you're the first person I've seen say they're not using it. GW used it for the most recent two heats, I think they're pretty set on it. Uroboros posted:Speed kills in this game, and that is a fact that has been true regardless of edition. Smite has been nerfed, and most smiters that are quick cost an obscene amount of points. I won't even say that the Shield-Captain on Bikes are by definition broken, but they are far to cheap. Tougness 6 characters that can move 16 inches, and are deadlier than Chapter Masters should be a MINIMUM of 200. Yeah I'm not saying they're not great. They feel like they're costed for pure Custodes armies and not for being plastered on top of a Guard gunline or whatever. WhiteOutMouse posted:
This guy gets it
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Feb 23, 2018 15:54
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Corrode posted:Yeah I'm not saying they're not great. They feel like they're costed for pure Custodes armies and not for being plastered on top of a Guard gunline or whatever. That's the problem though, pure armies are an arbitrary constraint that no one is obliged to follow.
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Feb 23, 2018 15:57
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a handful of superbadasses on gigantic bling jetbikes is exactly how i'd expect the custodes to operate alongside other imperial armies after robby g kicked them out of dad's basement though
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Feb 23, 2018 16:00
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Artum posted:That's the problem though, pure armies are an arbitrary constraint that no one is obliged to follow. Agreed. I'm not sure GW knows that.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:03
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Artum posted:That's the problem though, pure armies are an arbitrary constraint that no one is obliged to follow. Well, apart from factions that have no choice: Necrons, Orks and Tau, for example. I wonder, with rumours about Tau getting an Auxiliaries codex covering Kroot, Vespid, Gue'vesa etc, if the plan is to give every faction some sort of soup to play with?
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Feb 23, 2018 16:12
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Got my first Necron win yesterday. Turns out 20 warriors with a cryptek buffing them just do NOT die. They just really need some reliable anti-tank.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:15
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Flavivirus posted:Well, apart from factions that have no choice: Necrons, Orks and Tau, for example. I wonder, with rumours about Tau getting an Auxiliaries codex covering Kroot, Vespid, Gue'vesa etc, if the plan is to give every faction some sort of soup to play with? At that point is it really "soup" or are we just accepting that the factions are actually Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, Tyranids, Tau Empire, Greenskins and Necrons?
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Feb 23, 2018 16:16
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Flavivirus posted:Well, apart from factions that have no choice: Necrons, Orks and Tau, for example. I wonder, with rumours about Tau getting an Auxiliaries codex covering Kroot, Vespid, Gue'vesa etc, if the plan is to give every faction some sort of soup to play with? People have been mixing detachments of subfactions within an army even when they havent had entire other armies available; multiple hive fleets etc to min max portions of the army. Which to be honest I'm fine with, they only really need to rethink some of the detachment setups and bonuses and throw supreme command into a woodchipper or make the lord of war 1 rather than 0-1. Artum fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 16:21
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Got my first Necron win yesterday. 20 warriors with a cryptek and a ghost ark getting back 75% of losses every turn is extremely funny to watch.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:22
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Corrode posted:At that point is it really "soup" or are we just accepting that the factions are actually Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, Tyranids, Tau Empire, Greenskins and Necrons? Just call them grand alliances and be done with it, like AoS.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:23
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Artum posted:20 warriors with a cryptek and a ghost ark getting back 75% of losses every turn is extremely funny to watch. I won just by parking on an objective (we play with the "even index armies get ObSec" houserule) and daring everything else to try and move me.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:28
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:we play with the "even index armies get ObSec" houserule They do, its in chapter approved.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:29
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Am I understanding the guard's regiment rules correctly that they lose their <REGIMENT> special stuff if I use an assassin in that detachment? E: Cool, thanks guys! I'm still taking baby steps here. moths fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 16:32
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moths posted:Am I understanding the guard's regiment rules correctly that they lose their <REGIMENT> special stuff if I use an assassin in that detachment? They aren't on the list of exclusions so yes that's correct.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:37
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moths posted:Am I understanding the guard's regiment rules correctly that they lose their <REGIMENT> special stuff if I use an assassin in that detachment? Yeah, this is how all chapter/regiment whatever bonuses work - if you include stuff that doesn't share the faction keyword (so CADIAN, ULTRAMARINES, whatever) then you lose the bonus. Guard has some exceptions for Auxilia and Telepathica and so on which are listed in the codex. You can get around this either by using an Auxiliary detachment for -1CP, or by using a filler detachment to throw stuff like that in so it doesn't interfere with everything else.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:37
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Hixson posted:I guess I didn’t make my point clear: detachments are bad for the game and I think it’s likely they will continue to rise in power levels as new kits come out until they are at the same level of broken or worse than formations in 7th edition. I’m not making a commentary on why 8th is bad or whatever You're wrong about them being as bad or worse--Formations had all the problems of detachments and then some, since there was no limit to taking additional formation detachments in the same army to tack on the units/groupings you wanted. And on top of that, formations had a heap of problems above and beyond just their power level--assigning new, special rules to specific groups of units, some of which could be repeated within the same army in different formations, with the only balancing factor usually being a "poo poo unit tax" that often was either negligible or made the formation worthless. On the subject of whether detachments are bad, I'm not so sure. They haven't changed all that much from 7th edition. The problem seems more in how the keyword/ally system works, but that was also hosed up and bad in 7th edition as well. Conceptually I like being able to build keyword armies because it lets you get IG/Marines/Sisters or Chaos/Daemons mixed armies that look cool and are fluffy, but in execution it leads to some real problems. On the other hand, it also solves a lot of problems, like having armies that are essentially meant to act as *just* allies to other forces, like Custodes, Harlequins, or Imperial Knights. It may be that they needed a more faction-specific implementation of detachments to account for these, but I at least admire the intent behind just making army building as flexible as possible for people out of the gate. I kind of like what HH has done with Rites of War, but that approach seems easier to balance for a game where you have less army variation and fewer books/factions to manage, and as the number of rites continues to increase, I like those less and less. I agree that the unit power creep is still a real problem, though, and it compounds when you have more freedom to mix stuff (though again, you'd have just had that same freedom with formations, only with more bullshit on top). I'm just not sure how to solve it in the long term, since 40k just keeps increasing the number of units in the game and doesn't have a clear way to reset the power level of units in a way that helps them avoid power creep. Corrode posted:At that point is it really "soup" or are we just accepting that the factions are actually Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, Tyranids, Tau Empire, Greenskins and Necrons? I think it would probably solve some problems to just start thinking of them like this, yeah
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Feb 23, 2018 16:40
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zeal posted:a handful of superbadasses on gigantic bling jetbikes is exactly how i'd expect the custodes to operate alongside other imperial armies after robby g kicked them out of dad's basement though I don't think anyone's opposed to that, it's just that they're too cheap. Even fluffwise, the leaders of a limited and elite force of the emperor's favored guardians with the highest end equipment the imperium has ever had mounted on an equally kitted out bike should probably cost more than 16% of a 1000 point army.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:04
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Uroboros posted:Speed kills in this game, and that is a fact that has been true regardless of edition. Smite has been nerfed, and most smiters that are quick cost an obscene amount of points. I won't even say that the Shield-Captain on Bikes are by definition broken, but they are far to cheap. Tougness 6 characters that can move 16 inches, and are deadlier than Chapter Masters should be a MINIMUM of 200. Yeah, I also think that the character rule provides a lot more utility on a super fast model than the same model with a 6" move. A foot shield captain sacrifices something to benefit from the character rule and provides your opponent with a challenge instead of something unkillable and inevitable. I'm not sure there's ever been anything this fast and this killy with character(apart from Celestine who is a known issue in her own right, and costs more, and gw didn't really point them with the multiplicative nature of the interaction between those factors in mind.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:09
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Also, with the return of Chapter Approved releases and how they intend to balance things in them, I'm a bit more optimistic about 8thed surviving longer than 7thed wrt turning into a bloated decrepit mess. I imagine it could be annoying lugging 10 Chapter Approved books around, but since they're a general-use book you could probably just have your LGS keep a set around.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:14
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Foul Ole Ron posted:So would Demon prince's, both being fast and able to use smite, be a valid option to counter shield captain bikes? Worth a shot, that's assuming your smites go off. Once again, the soup factor is what kind of pushes this overboard. In a Custodes force those Captains have a small number of bodies to hide behind, they will get strung out eventually. Mix them with guard and you have a scenario where you are really unlikely to get the jump on these guys unless your opponent plays them very poorly.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:20
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Neurolimal posted:I imagine it could be annoying lugging 10 Chapter Approved books around, but since they're a general-use book you could probably just have your LGS keep a set around. You probably wouldn't need to lug 10 books around; by the time the next chapter approved comes out, most of the changes in the last one will have been overwritten. but man, they really do need a better digital rulebook strategy. e: Related note, if you are an Android user, I'd highly recommend the Armies40k app, which acts as a searchable catalog of every unit in the game, with stats and rules.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:25
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AnEdgelord posted:I suppose there is the possibility that Ghazkhul goes full Beast 2.0 and gets a Primarch tier kit and statline. I've been saying since the primaris were revealed that the main point The Beast was to provide a reason for up scales orks.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:32
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Uroboros posted:Worth a shot, that's assuming your smites go off. Once again, the soup factor is what kind of pushes this overboard. In a Custodes force those Captains have a small number of bodies to hide behind, they will get strung out eventually. Mix them with guard and you have a scenario where you are really unlikely to get the jump on these guys unless your opponent plays them very poorly. My thinking is either apply excessive amounts of obliterator fire or Bloodletter bomb to dissolve his guardsmen. The plus side of using Demon prince's is that they are killy enough to do something else asides from smite spam.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:35
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Artum posted:20 warriors with a cryptek and a ghost ark getting back 75% of losses every turn is extremely funny to watch. Thank you for convincing me to prioritize building my Cryptek and Ghost Ark after I finish my Imperial Knight.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:40
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Xenomrph posted:Thank you for convincing me to prioritize building my Cryptek and Ghost Ark after I finish my Imperial Knight. Just to break down how ridiculously tough that combo is: Warriors, T4/4+. Nearby Cryptek gives them 5++/4+ Reanimation. Nearby Ghost Ark lets them roll that 4+ Reanimation at the end of the movement phase as well as at the start of the turn like normal. So all you do is castle up a big blob of 20 warriors on one spot with their ark and cryptek somewhere safe near them. and watch as the opponent pours all the shots they can bear at the warriors, and the warriors either just shrug it off or stand back up if any wounds actually stick. If you want to make it even better, put a Lord in among them too, for the morale rerolls. TWSS posted:I like putting the Chapter Approved relic on the cryptek and launching it and the warriors onto clutch objectives. That sounds like a great idea. Right now I'm using that relic on my Overlord so I can drop him and a unit of gauss Immortals into rapid fire range of something that has to die ASAP. Gyro Zeppeli fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 17:54
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Just to break down how ridiculously tough that combo is: I like putting the Chapter Approved relic on the cryptek and launching it and the warriors onto clutch objectives.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:59
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Foul Ole Ron posted:My thinking is either apply excessive amounts of obliterator fire or Bloodletter bomb to dissolve his guardsmen. The plus side of using Demon prince's is that they are killy enough to do something else asides from smite spam. Bloodletters would be better, Obliterators themselves would be pretty reliable in killing the Captains once they are exposed, and probably more reliably than a Demon Prince.
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Feb 23, 2018 18:15
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Painted up Chaplain Grimaldus and his hype men - some of my favorite sculpts I've ever gotten to paint:       
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Feb 23, 2018 18:44
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TheChirurgeon posted:You probably wouldn't need to lug 10 books around; by the time the next chapter approved comes out, most of the changes in the last one will have been overwritten. Thanks for the app recommendation! At first glance it'll make it easier to look up units than what I currently have to do, which is create a new roster in Battlescribe, add units, and view them.
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Feb 23, 2018 18:56
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SRM posted:Painted up Chaplain Grimaldus and his hype men - some of my favorite sculpts I've ever gotten to paint: #squadgoals These are fantastic, the colour of the stone on the aquila is 
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Feb 23, 2018 19:09
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AnEdgelord posted:Maybe I missed something but the smite rule is still in beta and being tested. It's not been nerfed yet. It's not like all Grey Knights having Smite is at all overwhelming as is (though they're not as affected by it because of their existing battleforged bonus), and I'd even argue that they really should have the Rites of Banishment penalty only for their squads, not characters.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:21
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Looks like the next codex is T'a'''u. The only thing they specifically mention is five Septs, plus Farsight Enclaves.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:59
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Technowolf posted:Looks like the next codex is T'a'''u. Can't wait to see how bullshit they are to fight against once they get a full codex. I've got several of my local players who have picked them up so I won't even be able to avoid it.
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Feb 23, 2018 20:01
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“Let’s go up to the game store and see if they have a painting handle you can use with your test figure,” I say to the son. He looks up at me with a twinkle in his eye and whispers quietly: “...And some more Tau?” Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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Feb 23, 2018 20:10
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On balance chat, I think part of the problem with the current army construction rules is that certain kinds of defence or ability (most notably good invuln saves, t8 and deep striking high-threat units) massively reduce the points efficiency of large proportions of things countering them. In general, points-per-wound efficiency of anything S4 or less massively drops off against t8, while good invuln saves on models too tough to take down with small arms fire invalidate the premium you pay on AT weapons with good AP. That would be fine if there was a limit on how many things you could take with them, but because of the detachment rules (and supreme command is by *far* the worst offender here) you can stack up units with similar characteristics to your hearts content, and some otherwise reasonable armies just can’t deal with them. I would suggest an immediate patch GW could put in for matched play would be a hard limit of “no more than three of any non-troops datasheet in a 2k matched play army”. I’ve racked my brains and I can’t think of anything “fair” that this stomps all over, and while it’s not a complete fix, it’s nicely future proof in that it provides some degree of pre-emptive prevention for problems caused by future over-pushed units. I also think they need to seriously look at invuln save creep, as it seems to have got a bit out of hand. For my money, nothing should have better than a 4++ outside of one-per-army specials, and anything tougher than an infantry character probably shouldn’t get better than a 5++. Hive tyrants having a 4++ is just as much hot bullshit as the bike captains 3++, and the fact that flyrant spam is a moderately prominent strategy seems to bear that out (and it’s definitely the invuln that pushes them “over the top” from my experience).
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Feb 23, 2018 20:15
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SRM posted:Painted up Chaplain Grimaldus and his hype men - some of my favorite sculpts I've ever gotten to paint: Sadly, Grimaldus isn't the only named character in the Marine Codex that it is really hard to justifying picking over his generic counterpart. Chaplain Cassius, and Captain Sicarius are equally overpriced and provide super lame special rules.
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Feb 23, 2018 20:18
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PantsOptional posted:“Let’s go up to the game store and see if they have a painting handle you can use with your test figure,” I say to the son. He looks up at me with a twinkle in his eye and whispers quietly: Yessssssssssssssss
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Feb 23, 2018 20:19
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