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Is there a product I can download or buy that has Drives for the core classes to replace alignments? I checked the OP, but didn't see anything.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:33
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We are three sessions in and things have gone fairly smoothly but I'm still not sure I'm doing combat correctly. Am I only making moves when the players biff a roll? I feel like I just keep saying "they're bearing down on you, they really want to kill you!" Until someone hacks a 7-9 or flubs another roll.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:26
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No, you can make a move whenever it is appropriate. But in general, the harder the move you plan to make the more set-up you should do prior. So for instance, it's actually cool to say, "The Ork hacks at you with his bladed club and connects, drawing blood. Take 3hp damage." That's you inflicting damage as established. But that's a pretty forceful move, and some GMs balk at straight-up doling out harm like that. But what might be more cool is to say, "OK, the two Orks split up, each one hedging to one side as they size you up. The one on the left looks like he's about to make a lunge at you - what do you do?" This is you revealing an unwelcome truth. Chances are good the player will engage in some kind of fighty move with the Ork making the lunge, and you'll handle the outcome of their move's roll accordingly. But at that point it's fine to say, "While you're dealing with the first Ork, the second one seizes his opportunity and darts in, opening a gash on your trailing leg before you can turn and fend him off again. Take 3hp damage." You can say this because you've set-up the move - you've warned the player that there are 2 Orks, that they've spread out, that they're coordinating their attacks, and that dealing with one runs the very real risk of opening you up to the other. Similarly, anything you narrate that makes the environment dangerous is a good set-up. "The bandits are in the tree-line, maybe 20 yards away. With the cover of the wagons you're relatively safe, but anytime you pop your head out, it draws fire from 3 or 4 arrows. The moment you move from cover, you're going to get feathered. What do you do?" Again, this is revealing an unwelcome truth, and you are doing your due diligence as the GM to establish something in the fiction: breaking cover means getting shot with arrows. If the PC does something that involves exposing themselves to fire, it's fine to simply apply damage. You can even do it as a precondition to their move - so someone might want to defy danger using DEX to try to roll out, spring to their feet, and bum-rush the nearest bandit. It's OK to say, "sure, take X damage and roll+DEX," because you've set-up your move. And if they knock their defy danger roll out of the park, then maybe they only get hit the once and make it the rest of the way without taking any further damage. If they 7-9 it, taking another arrow on the way in is an easy "hard bargain." And if they fail, of course, the world is your oyster. Make sense?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:57
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Yeah that makes more sense than the monsters just charging in slow motion while the PCs zip around in bullet time carving them to pieces.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:04
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It's also cool to have a monster make an attack to which hack & slash is not an appropriate response. As in, "With the sound of a thousand in-drawn breaths, the dragon rears back. Its maw open wide, a gout of flame jets forth towards you. What do you do?" If the PC is dumb enough to say, "I attack!" then barbecue that fucker. Likewise, if an opponent's attack is already launched - "The Ogre swings his tree-size club at you - what do you do?" - then anything that the PC does that fails to avoid, blunt, or stop that attack means they're going to take damage. Don't let them get away with "attacking first" when the opponent's attack is already incoming. Similarly, it's always good to make moves that change the (fictional) tactical picture. "The zombie grabs your sword arm in his vise-like grip. Rotted mouth wide, he moves to bite you. What do you do?" That's putting someone in a spot, which is a great set-up move, and in this case you've made it clear that the PC's sword arm is encumbered and can't be used, which almost certainly takes hack & slash off the table. If the PC wants to avoid being bitten by the zombie (the move you're setting up), he or she needs to do something else. Break free or shove the zombie away? Yeah, that's cool, roll+STR (which you then adjudicate as what it is, which is defy danger). Also remember that moves have triggers. It's not enough for the PC to say, "I roll hack & slash!" This is especially true if getting close to the opponent is difficult or dangerous. And as the GM, you should always be looking at what the PC is trying to do and deciding if there's an appropriate stat for a defy danger attempt. If one of those things gets triggered, make them roll.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:29
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Another trick I've used is to go ahead and let the opponent land a blow that doesn't deal damage but still makes it clear they have initiative and are pressing their advantages without waiting for the PCs to act. For example, I've opened a combat with something like "You spot the black knight's mace whistling towards your head just in time to get your shield up. The blow strikes with tremendous force, gouging the wood and making you stumble. By the time you recover, he's already closed the gap, crowding you and raining down blows to try and find a gap in your defenses." In this case you've still put them in a spot but you don't have that "bullet time" effect that sometimes can feel a bit wonky. They're already striking and attacking, it's just that they haven't quite landed a telling blow yet. At that point the player can decide what they want to do, and depending on the results you're well set up to deal HP damage or do something else nasty. Another example is that I had a group of goblins waylay the PCs by having half of them launch a barrage of sling stones while the rest charged. I told the PCs to describe how they managed to dodge or protect themselves against the sling stones, and then that the other goblins were now right up in their faces, jabbing away with spears. Again, this gives you the narrative of continuous action and danger, but in fact opens with a very soft GM move that's about establishing facts to set up later hard moves. A key is to remember that HP is an abstraction, and that especially in Dungeon World a single hack & slash generally doesn't reflect one swing of a sword. You can lean into being a fan of the PCs to narrate how they just barely avoid getting hurt by an attack, or even a series of attacks, and then throw it to them at a point where they know they have to do something or the next blow might well get through. EDIT: To go back to that original question, remember you can and should make a moves right off a PC success. The key is you should never negate a success, and should avoid undercutting it as much as possible. Build off it. It takes practice, but it's entirely possible to phrase throwing the PC back into the fire as part of their success. A good way to do this is to specifically and directly call out how their success has put them in a better position to deal with the new threat, and to indicate what would have happened if they hadn't succeeded. Essentially, "here's how this would have gone if you hadn't been such a badass adventurer." Again, an example: "You dance back out of reach of the dark elf's blade, then suddenly lunge forward, catching her perfectly off-balance and dispatching her with a perfect strike. That speed serves you well - you have plenty of time to sidestep the other two dark elves coming to assist the one you killed and bring your blade to bear. Even outnumbered, you have them at a disadvantage as they try to reorient themselves after their mad rush. If you had been even a bit slower dealing with that first opponent, they'd have you thoroughly boxed in." Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 18:41
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Devorum posted:Is there a product I can download or buy that has Drives for the core classes to replace alignments? It tries to "fix" some bits and pieces we all complain about, and adds some stuff in too. Never tried it so can't comment on what it's like. But I'm pretty sure it has what you want As per usual, these guys are right on the mark However something else to consider too is it's not all GM input. Absolutely make sure you listen to and put into place this great advice, but the players need to shift their attitude too In my last game, they had a epic final battle with a dragon. It was my player's first PbtA game and they just didn't really get the whole "actually you can't just Hack and Slash the dragon to death" thing, even when I felt I was making it super obvious Example: Wizard: I'm gonna fireball the dragon GM: Fantastic, tell us how you cast that Wizard: <epic spell casting description> Can I roll now? GM: You cannot, let me tell you how that fireball bounces off its scales like a toenail off 5 inches of solid steel Obviously I'm paraphrasing there. But the point is, you can go to town and back telling them how buff this dragon is, but until players throw out the ol' DnD HP sponge thought process and realise the narrative is what is driving the mechanics, it can be hard work All that said, maybe I'm preaching to the converted here, maybe your players will all "get it" right away. But certainly for me it can be a point of frustration from both sides of the table, when it really shouldn't be
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Feb 12, 2018 19:00
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kaffo posted:All that said, maybe I'm preaching to the converted here, maybe your players will all "get it" right away. But certainly for me it can be a point of frustration from both sides of the table, when it really shouldn't be In fact, it's not totally inappropriate in all cases - it's part of the reason moves have names like hack and slash as opposed to "melee attack." There's a built in narrative to naming the move, and at times it's appropriate to fall back on. That's a good way to help players keep this concept in mind - even if they name the move in a fairly mechanical way, name it back and respond to it in a narrative way. If they say "I hack and slash the golem," and grab their dice, stop them and say "You lash out at the golem, hacking and slashing with your blade. But it doesn't seem to feel the blows, and in moments the cuts in its clay flesh fade and seal over again. What do you do?" I'd even then say "you know there must be some way to wound it, but just flailing away with a sword won't do."
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Feb 12, 2018 19:17
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A way I've done this to is to create an obstacle course to have them go through. Sure the Soul-Slurping Siren is fleshy and spongey, but there's a giant barrier of sound stopping all of your arrows, and her giant, spinning turntable of doom powering the wall lies between you and her. How do you possibly overcome these perplexing defenses? Sure they can hack and slash her, but I will deliberately put obstacles in their way, decreasing the chance they succeed. Typically I tend to ratchet up the "soft" moves before the hard moves in the beginning. I might do a "soft-soft-hard" in the initial encounter to demonstrate the danger, then move on to a "soft-hard" approach once newer players understand the narrative aspects. Finally when confronting the boss, I will create a custom hard move that forces the player to overcome obstacles before being able to attack the boss, giving me a psuedo hard/soft move depending on how dramatic/dangerous the situation is. For example, for one game my players faught a deranged beast, the Snarflaughx: Confront the dreaded Snarflaughx! posted:
So even before they could damage it, they had to determine how much danger they were in being right in front of its greedy maw.
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Feb 12, 2018 21:34
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This probably gets asked a lot, but how does one replenish ammo once it's marked off? I know the number's just an abstraction of how many times you can mark off, but when it's all gone, what do you do? Is it something to purchase? If so, what does it cost?
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Feb 13, 2018 07:02
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Lurdiak posted:This probably gets asked a lot, but how does one replenish ammo once it's marked off? I know the number's just an abstraction of how many times you can mark off, but when it's all gone, what do you do? Is it something to purchase? If so, what does it cost? From the weapon list (p 326 in my rulebook): Bundle of Arrows 3 ammo, 1 coin, 1 weight Buy that like anything else with the Supply move, I guess. e: I don't know how to deal with ranged weapons that don't have the ammo tag, like throwing daggers.
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Feb 13, 2018 11:38
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Shanty posted:e: I don't know how to deal with ranged weapons that don't have the ammo tag, like throwing daggers. I've seen splatbooks just add the ammo tag to throwing daggers, so I guess you're not the only one who's confused. I also am not quite sure why elven arrows are 20 times the price of a regular bundle if all they've got going is one more ammo point to mark off.
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Feb 13, 2018 12:37
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Personally, I've always thought tracking ammo is super dumb unless you are using highly simulated system I'm more a fan of using it for dramatic purpose. If they fail a Volly they manage to catch the dude they are aiming for, doing damage, but as they go to reach for a new arrow, they realise they only have 3 arrows left... That kinda thing Otherwise, everyone forgets, it's needless math every time you go to a town and someone gets mad when they realise they should have bought 10 arrows instead of 5... There's very few actual positives to keeping track of them in my opinion
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Feb 13, 2018 12:53
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kaffo posted:Personally, I've always thought tracking ammo is super dumb unless you are using highly simulated system That's kinda how it works. When you volley, one of the choices is to not spend ammo, so you can keep firing until you have to pick that option 3 times.
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Feb 13, 2018 13:02
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Lurdiak posted:I've seen splatbooks just add the ammo tag to throwing daggers, so I guess you're not the only one who's confused. Fictional positioning? I.e. ask your players, I guess. Maybe they burn orcs like elven rope burns Gollum. Maybe it's impossible to hit an ally with them. Maybe they're made of the bones of dwarves. Maybe they sing (really short) secrets as they fly. If DW was a little more generic, they'd probably just be called "Magic arrows [specify enchantment]".
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Feb 13, 2018 13:28
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Shanty posted:Fictional positioning? I.e. ask your players, I guess. Maybe they burn orcs like elven rope burns Gollum. Maybe it's impossible to hit an ally with them. Maybe they're made of the bones of dwarves. Maybe they sing (really short) secrets as they fly. I really need to get into the descriptive storytelling mindset more.
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Feb 13, 2018 13:37
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Lurdiak posted:I really need to get into the descriptive storytelling mindset more. It's what really attracts me to DW, but bear in mind my previous posts on this page: I have never played DW, I only read about it obsessively while counting the days till our first session. My immediate fear about the fictional approach is the player who goes "They never miss, kill instantly and confer invisibility." I suppose you either go "no" or everyone bends over backwards to explain why you still have to follow the Volley rules for these god-killers.
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Feb 13, 2018 13:48
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:That's kinda how it works. When you volley, one of the choices is to not spend ammo, so you can keep firing until you have to pick that option 3 times. It's been a while and I couldn't be bothered getting the moves sheet up at work 
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Feb 13, 2018 14:58
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Shanty posted:It's what really attracts me to DW, but bear in mind my previous posts on this page: I have never played DW, I only read about it obsessively while counting the days till our first session. The principles are GM facing, but several of them really apply to everyone at the table. The players should be fans of each other's characters, should follow the fiction, should look for challenges. Taking advantage of narrative approach that way is likely to undercut everyone else at the table in a way that's not fun. That doesn't mean you have to shut down a suggestion like that completely, but the context matters a lot. Of course if it's just a joke to break tension, that's fine. And it's also fine if the player making the suggestion is creating a narrative of them not just being expensive, but nearly impossible to acquire, or following the fiction in some other way that avoids undercutting everyone else. Or if you're playing a game where everyone is on board with silliness, then by all means! That last is important because what's appropriate fiction is something you have to create consensus for at the beginning of the game. Part of the set up with a PbtA game, and possibly not as well delineated as it should be, is having a discussion about scope and tone. Tone's the more obvious one, but scope plays into it as well. Specifically, figuring out just how much narrative leverage a move gives you. It's easier to explain with Apocalypse World - different scope and tone are how you can play The Last of Us and TurboKid using the same system. Everyone needs to be more or less on the same page with both in order for PbtA games to work. In that sense, whether those super-arrows fit depends on what the group agreed to. Outside of a comedy game, I'm still not sure if regularly available super items like that work in DW. Maybe if you go the full on Exalted route and have everything dialed to the maximum setting, at which point you use the Volley rules because a single goblin is not a worthy foe - you're Volleying against a hundred goblins at once, or a dueling a demi-god who doesn't stay dead. I would argue that extreme is working right up against the limits of what DW is capable of, and would probably recommend using a different game, like Godbound.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:29
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Lurdiak posted:I've seen splatbooks just add the ammo tag to throwing daggers, so I guess you're not the only one who's confused. If four ammo instead of three are at all important to you, they're likely to be 20 coin worth of important. Thrown weapons always burn ammo on a Volley, no matter the roll, and you can't pick to mark extra on a 7-9. I figure they have ammo to fit multiples in 1 weight and let a ranger or ranger multiclass Blot Out The Sun. Also they're generally more recoverable than 1-ammo worth of arrows.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:13
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Glazius posted:If four ammo instead of three are at all important to you, they're likely to be 20 coin worth of important. Hey, that dagger could bounce back, your character could be the king of bank shots.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:37
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SystemLogoff posted:Hey, that dagger could bounce back, your character could be the king of bank shots. If your character has advanced to being the king of bank shots and gotten a move that lets them tell the DM where the first bounce goes, sure, "back in my hand" would work. Absent that, you do what the thrown tag says.
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Feb 13, 2018 22:07
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It so happens that I have something in my splatbook that's salient to this discussion.new item tags posted:Returns: It returns to the user after being thrown with Volley. This takes a moment, leaving the wielder disarmed in the interim. On a 7-9, instead of reducing ammo, you may choose the following option.
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Feb 14, 2018 12:47
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Glazius posted:If your character has advanced to being the king of bank shots and gotten a move that lets them tell the DM where the first bounce goes, sure, "back in my hand" would work. Oh yeah, it's a tag! Hadn't noticed, that makes sense.
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Feb 14, 2018 12:48
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Can I get feedback on a custom move for a pilot/rogue-ish type? This is for Dungeon Planet. It’s an Older Code, Sir, but it Checks Out When you confidently go somewhere you’re not supposed to be, roll+CHA. > On a 10+ hold 2. > On a 7-9 hold 1. On a hit, you get in and can spend hold 1 for 1 on the options below. • You will not be discovered. • You can take someone else with you. • You can take something or someone away. • You gain valuable information about an enemy or rival. Take +1 forward when acting on this information.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:07
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I'd swap the description of the 10+ and 7-9 result plus describing how hold works, but it should work fine.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:12
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I think it's fine as is.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:27
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The move seems cool but I think instead of Hold you may be looking for a simpler "Choose <x>". When a move has the player generate Hold, the idea is they'll then spend it over some period of time. In this case it looks like the options are all things that would get chosen immediately as the move resolves. So it would be like: "...on a 7-9 choose 1, on a 10+ choose 3..." and then have the options.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:58
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You are absolutely right. I'll make that change, thanks!
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Feb 19, 2018 16:10
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Okay so I've been spending some time thinking about the smash-up between Bard and Thief that better fits into Dungeon Planet. I really like the Dungeon Planet book, but it feels half done when it comes to classes. The new classes are great, but the idea that the run-of-the-mill bard, thief, and wizard fit into the setting without any friction doesn't seem right to me. That might be my own sci-fi biases showing though. In any case, I present The Pilot v1.0. It needs more advanced moves but I think the base is a solid mash up that combines to create a Han Solo/Jack Burton/Alex Rogan type character for spacey adventures. Tear it apart, please. I'll be play-testing it this weekend and can make changes right up to the hour before we sit down to play.
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Feb 21, 2018 15:24
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MTV Crib Death posted:Okay so I've been spending some time thinking about the smash-up between Bard and Thief that better fits into Dungeon Planet. I really like the Dungeon Planet book, but it feels half done when it comes to classes. The new classes are great, but the idea that the run-of-the-mill bard, thief, and wizard fit into the setting without any friction doesn't seem right to me. That might be my own sci-fi biases showing though. That looks like great fun, I can't really see any holes to poke in it You did fat finger in Dashing Smile though quote:They must answer it truthfully, then you may ask you a question from the list
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Feb 21, 2018 16:07
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MTV Crib Death posted:Okay so I've been spending some time thinking about the smash-up between Bard and Thief that better fits into Dungeon Planet. I really like the Dungeon Planet book, but it feels half done when it comes to classes. The new classes are great, but the idea that the run-of-the-mill bard, thief, and wizard fit into the setting without any friction doesn't seem right to me. That might be my own sci-fi biases showing though. Seen It All Before is obviously based on Trap Expert, but differs slightly, missing "...as you walk through the area". So this isn't really a critique of your move (which seems more streamlined), but how do people play the original move? I can't imagine anyone doesn't just spend all their hold right away instead of walking around a possibly trap-filled area. Anyway, if you want to lose that confusion, why not just have "On a 10+ choose 3. On a 7–9 choose 1." Makes it a slightly more Spout Lore-ish move too, like the pilot takes one look at the featureless room, recognizes an emblem or price tag or something and goes "Aw man, PulsaCorp SnekPits. Mk IIs, too, looks like."
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Feb 22, 2018 09:28
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Shanty posted:Seen It All Before is obviously based on Trap Expert, but differs slightly, missing "...as you walk through the area". So this isn't really a critique of your move (which seems more streamlined), but how do people play the original move? I can't imagine anyone doesn't just spend all their hold right away instead of walking around a possibly trap-filled area. I think that's a great change. It seems like all the questions are immediately useful, so why would anyone wait to ask them? Here's the next version. I changed the name of "Smooth Operator" to "With a Wink to the Camera" because the Technician class has a Smooth Operator move (whoops). I also felt that the advanced moves were rather sparse, so I added move called "Heart of Gold." I'm trying to capture that moment where the rogue-ish type comes around to do the right thing: Han showing up to blast the tie fighter away. Here's the text if you don't want to click a pdf: Heart of Gold (CHA) When you put yourself in danger to save an ally from imminent death, damage, or disability roll+CHA. On a 10+ choose 2. On a 7-9 choose 1. • You transfer the death, danger, or disability to yourself. • No one dies in this interaction, but you suffer for it. • The source of the death, damage, or disability shares the fate of its victim.
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Feb 22, 2018 15:23
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Extremely appropriate, love the flavour. Its definitely a defining move for the playbook. The scoundrel making good at the last second. I get that it's meant to be a rare, down to the wire thing, but its, uh, "mechanical" attractiveness as a move is going to depend heavily on the GM's tendency to throw certain death at players. How about something that plays both sides of the coin somehow? Like, gives the pilot hold when he's being a selfish prick that he can spend on bonuses to Defend or Aid? (https://youtu.be/COCmaZA3d08) As it stands the move wouldn't look out of place for a Paladin (or "bright side laser sword priest" as the case may be). I'd probably still pick it, though, so v  v
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Feb 22, 2018 19:58
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Shanty posted:How about something that plays both sides of the coin somehow? Like, gives the pilot hold when he's being a selfish prick that he can spend on bonuses to Defend or Aid? Yes! This is exactly the concept I was scrabbling for. So do we call it hold or do we give it a new term analogous to the Princess' 'Poise?' Maybe "Distance?" Spend "Distance" to rescue your companions? This is starting to feel more like a core concept rather than an advanced move--back to the drawing board!
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Feb 22, 2018 20:55
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Haha, I'm only familiar with the core classes, and I think they use "hold" mostly. But yeah, a mechanic that lets the character get away with being kind of a dick occasionally because the other players know he'll bail them out later seems like a good idea. I think in the long run the abilities should increase the help he gives rather than doubling down on the scoundrel stuff, if only to keep him from getting kicked out of the party. He'll end up a goody two shoes in a thin veneer of snark that way, but hey, so did Han.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:18
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MTV Crib Death posted:Yes! This is exactly the concept I was scrabbling for. So do we call it hold or do we give it a new term analogous to the Princess' 'Poise?' Maybe "Distance?" Spend "Distance" to rescue your companions? “Aloof”? “Smug”? “Detachment”?
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Feb 24, 2018 03:56
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"Ego"?
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Feb 24, 2018 20:33
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If not "Ego", maybe you want to flip the script on it and call it "guilt". Get guilt by being a dick, spend it to help your buddies. Call it "losing guilt".
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Feb 24, 2018 22:42
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:19 |
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Also the mention reminded me there were some things I wanted to update on The Princess. (Old link should still be good thanks to versioning.)
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Mar 1, 2018 04:50
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