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I don't want to be the "both sides" jerk but honestly I think the white palace does feel out of place but it's also extremely cool & good 
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Feb 20, 2018 07:39
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I haven't tried the path of pain, but the white palace... it was fine. I've played a lot of twitchy platformers like Super Meat Boy or Dustforce so, although I'm not terribly good at them, I was able to handle the palace well enough. However it feels kind of thrown together, its not so much that it's too difficult its more the way that out of the blue they make this massive hard platforming stage where previously most platforming was either easy or optional in the more difficult instances (and always short). In addition the platforming in most of the rest of the game often involved various creative gimmicks like Bounce pads, falling platforms or having to pogo off of invulnerable moving enemies. They also made some effort to make the platforming challenges thematically and visually slot into the area that it was happening in. The White Palace is just the most basic and obvious kind of platforming with the proviso that it was difficult, but they don't put much effort into trying to make it a coherent part of the world in the same way it feels like they do in the rest of the game, as people note the king filling his nice looking palace with deadly noisy buzzsaws everywhere just feels weirdly dissonant with the surroundings and general tone of the game in general. I've noticed a lot of people compare it to Super Meat Boy in particular, and I think that shows how it fails on some levels since it's hewing too closely and boringly to the difficult platformer tropes set in that icon of the genre even in small ways like having the main hazards being buzzsaws, and also because SMB doesn't really care about plot or world building compared to pure mechanical robustness while Hollow Knight very much cares about plot and world building so SMB being an obvious point of comparison for that section and only that section suggests it doesn't sit well with the rest of the game in those regards. Still, I do like when games throw a bit of a curveball at the player and it was interesting having to dust off my twitch platforming experience.
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Feb 20, 2018 08:01
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It’s an allegory guys jeez
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Feb 20, 2018 09:08
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:Counterpoint, this part of the game is optional The entire game is optional, dude.
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Feb 20, 2018 09:56
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I disagree that anything in the White Palace, even the Path of Pain, is random in any capacity. But other than that, I think the other posters got it quite right. The White Palace is basically an entirely different game, it requires a skill set that the game does not really teach you (even though the mechanics support it perfectly well), and it's annoying that you need it for the best ending. It's hardly on the same level as a Drakengard rhythm game dick move, but inconsistent with the game nonetheless, no matter the justifications. I think the required path for the best ending should have easier platforming, less buzz saws and more focus on atmosphere. That being said, it loving rules and I want more. Lock it all away behind no-reward disclaimers if you want to, I don't care. Give me platforming setpieces with truly nasty enemy arrangements, so that we can have the meanest possible combination of both worlds. Just, uh, tone down the buzz saw sound, please.
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Feb 20, 2018 10:35
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I went back to the Colosseum to make some more geo, and bumped into Tiso, who informed me he was going to kick some rear end including mine if I made it that far Later I headed back down the mountain and found his corpse. Poor bastard, he was a less fun Zote, and using the dream nail on him was pretty sad On an unrelated note, yes I listened to every single one of Zote's rules for being a true warrior 
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Feb 20, 2018 12:18
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The only reason Zote isn't the worst character in the game is because Tiso exists.
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Feb 20, 2018 13:02
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I Said No posted:The only reason Zote isn't the worst character in the game is because Tiso exists. 
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Feb 20, 2018 13:07
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Let the fucker die.
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Feb 20, 2018 13:08
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Your Computer posted:Tiso got a great and very fitting ending though, Zote on the other ruins the chillest place in the game with his jabbering. I really liked sitting down in Dirtmouth and having a quiet moment with the Elderbug, but then... Zote. For the rest of the game. Manta manta manta. Chokta. Mata BUPtis. I also like how he probably tried to talk poo poo about you to everyone but only Bretta actually bought it. Elderbug is too nice to do anything about it even if he believed it.
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Feb 20, 2018 13:10
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Bleck posted:See above regarding how combat and platforming are two different skillsets, only one of which the game has you developing as you play. It's not a question of being Good at Video Games, but rather, suddenly being expected to be good at a video game that you haven't been playing... If we were talking about A Generic Hard Fight I'd buy this argument, but the fight we are specifically talking about involves a lot of the same skills as the White Palace. Spear/spike floor combos, the final segment, etc. Avoiding damage in that fight requires precise control of your movement and location in a much more demanding way than any other boss. I mean yes you can basically ignore all that and plow through it with blueblood charms, but that undermines most of what makes the fight a satisfying conclusion so whatever. edit: In fact to really play devil's advocate: The White Palace exists to teach you skills that will be tested at the final boss, it's just tragically undermined by the boss being a little undertuned/the designer not realizing quite how busted one charm combo is. There now I have talked myself into thinking the White Palace is Good design with an important place in the game. Irony.or.Death fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:40
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The problem with white palace isn't that it's hard, it's that it's dull, boring and unfun. And that it has a grating buzz saw noise playing 100% of the time you're in there.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:37
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Y'all know there's a sound fx volume option, right? E: white palace good
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Feb 20, 2018 16:54
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Eh, people shouldn't be forced to go into options to fix something annoying. They made the buzzsaws look beautiful, I kinda wish they made them sound beautiful too.
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Feb 20, 2018 17:44
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Mymla posted:The problem with white palace isn't that it's hard, it's that it's dull, boring and unfun. And that it has a grating buzz saw noise playing 100% of the time you're in there. I mean there's enough people who like it that it being dull, boring and unfun is definitely not a universal experience
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Feb 20, 2018 19:16
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khwarezm posted:The White Palace is just the most basic and obvious kind of platforming with the proviso that it was difficult, but they don't put much effort into trying to make it a coherent part of the world in the same way it feels like they do in the rest of the game, as people note the king filling his nice looking palace with deadly noisy buzzsaws everywhere just feels weirdly dissonant with the surroundings and general tone of the game in general. Let's move the conversation more in this direction: I don't think we're supposed to think that's, like, the actual White Palace. It's in the Dream and it is actively trying to kill you and/or protect the King's secrets (both the Kingsoul shard and his deepest, darkest secret at the end of the Path of Pain). It wasn't filled with buzzsaws in the "real" world. I might even go as far as to suggest that it's in the Dream and so it is the Radiance specifically that's trying to kill you and keep you from the Kingsoul--you'll see all those spears and spikes again when you fight her directly. Of course, this doesn't answer the question of just where the White Palace went when it disappeared. 
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Feb 20, 2018 19:57
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I 100% believe the palace was always filled with hundreds of buzzsaws and that all the retainers had to do hellish platforming during their morning commute. You can't convince me otherwise.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:01
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Attention Janitorial Staff, Management has received your concerns and has installed one indestructible light bug in corridor 24. Further, Management has relayed your complaints about corridors 4, 8, 26, and 71 to the King. The King has responded that he would like you all to "git gud." Thank you. Sincerely, Management
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Feb 20, 2018 20:06
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OzFactor posted:Let's move the conversation more in this direction: I don't think we're supposed to think that's, like, the actual White Palace. It's in the Dream and it is actively trying to kill you and/or protect the King's secrets (both the Kingsoul shard and his deepest, darkest secret at the end of the Path of Pain). It wasn't filled with buzzsaws in the "real" world. I might even go as far as to suggest that it's in the Dream and so it is the Radiance specifically that's trying to kill you and keep you from the Kingsoul--you'll see all those spears and spikes again when you fight her directly. See also: the other dream bosses having areas around their arenas that don't correspond to the real world.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:17
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I have a question regarding the blue blood charms that everyone says makes the game broken. What? I am someone who is still struggling through grey prince zote (only at 6 wins out of the 10 so far. Brutal x_x) and struggled MASSIVELY with Radiance despite the blue blood, and had to equip blueblood to even begin fighting some of the tougher dream fights as they completely destroyed me before I ever learned anything. It's not as though I'm specifically terrible at the game either; I got through deepnest without a single upgrade to my nail due to finding it before the city and the white palace as well as the path of pain were incredibly fun segments for me. I really don't understand that hatred for being able to just give yourself a massive health pool. Some people need it and it doesn't let you facetank in quite an exagerated fashion as people here seem to be arguing. Maybe for some of the earlier game bosses sure, but even then it's acting as a reward for exploring two of the more hidden areas in the game for some charms that are clearly shown to be something incredible by their environments.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:33
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On WP, you enter via a dead soldier so I assume that it's somehow a shared dream between the soldiers and the pale king himself. I don't think the radiance is keeping you away from the kingsoul, I think it's the memories of the soldiers protecting their king. In the case of PoP the king spending time with the knight is his most guarded memory and something he's probably ashamed of given that it may have been what turned the knight into an imperfect vessel (being shown affection by daddy).
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Feb 20, 2018 20:34
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OzFactor posted:Let's move the conversation more in this direction: I don't think we're supposed to think that's, like, the actual White Palace. It's in the Dream and it is actively trying to kill you and/or protect the King's secrets (both the Kingsoul shard and his deepest, darkest secret at the end of the Path of Pain). It wasn't filled with buzzsaws in the "real" world. I might even go as far as to suggest that it's in the Dream and so it is the Radiance specifically that's trying to kill you and keep you from the Kingsoul--you'll see all those spears and spikes again when you fight her directly. I've seen this idea floated around before but if they were going that direction I think they should have made it far more abstract, and then that aspect would have hit harder. Maybe the pits could have the pale king's version of the dangerous black void you find in the abyss. If it's a construct of the king's dream they could have gone all out, instead it's just buzzsaws, and spikes. I'm fixating on the buzzsaws because, to me, they're bemusingly pedestrian for this game, and this part of the game in particular (they also don't really gel too well with the serene atmosphere in the place imo). It's like 'Ugh, better make a traditionally hard platforming stage, what do the other games use? Buzzsaws? Yeah ok whatever.' In other words I would like more creativity. At the very least bring back more of the elements from earlier platforming like moving walls or collapsing platforms, the endgame platforming segments in really good hard platforming games tend to combine the previous gimmicks as a kind of final exam. As it is it's just basically a later SMB stage (and some of those are pretty lazily designed even if they are difficult). khwarezm fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 21:02
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No Wave posted:On WP, you enter via a dead soldier so I assume that it's somehow a shared dream between the soldiers and the pale king himself. I don't think the radiance is keeping you away from the kingsoul, I think it's the memories of the soldiers protecting their king. kingsmoulds are constructs and presumably animated by the king somehow (rather than flopping lifelessly out of their mould), so it's possibly less of a shared memory and more straight-up "here's a conduit into the king's mind" or "the echoes the king left behind when he vanished" or whatever also the buzzsaws were to service the burgeoning Hallownest lumber industry. why do you think only Zote can afford a sword made of shellwood???
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Feb 21, 2018 00:51
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https://twitter.com/maxistired/status/966520558081925120
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Feb 22, 2018 09:46
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I've played so much of this game and the little cartoony feet that both he, and to a lesser extent Hornet, have always kill me, I love them.
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Feb 22, 2018 10:05
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Ledgem posted:I really don't understand that hatred for being able to just give yourself a massive health pool. Some people need to inflate the importance of their accomplishments by diminishing others, because they have very low self-esteem
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Feb 22, 2018 18:21
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I've finished the game, it was so loving good and I loved it so much. I actually got mad when I went down to the Abyss and saw the memory of how our little hero got started  It sure made the Dream No More ending cathartic though.
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Feb 24, 2018 06:59
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Jerusalem posted:I've finished the game, it was so loving good and I loved it so much. Have you done all the Grimm Troupe content? You're not finished with the game until you've beaten Nightmare King Grimm
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Feb 24, 2018 21:39
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SirSamVimes posted:Have you done all the Grimm Troupe content? You're not finished with the game until you've beaten Nightmare King Grimm Yep, I'd heard that there were multiple endings to the game so I made back-up saves so I could try out different stuff - looked up the other endings after getting the standard ending, there was a lot of stuff I'd never have found or didn't realize I had mostly found without knowing how it would all add up. Normally I banish the Troupe but I made a point of finishing the ritual in one save, which is also the one where I trapped Hornet along with me in the Black Temple. Your spoilered fight was really tough for me, I wasn't expecting Bullet Hell elements to be in there. I think I ended up beating every Boss with the exception of Grey Prince Zote who I beat three times, then realized how frustrating it was gonna get and just gave it up.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:27
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Is there a trick to fighting the Flukemarm? I only have the first nail upgrade, but the Mantis Lords did not give me as much trouble. The only thing I can think of is to spam the soul shot and attack. Maybe use the Fragile Strength charm too, but that is all just pure DPS burning, and it feels like it SHOULD be a simple fight, which makes me think I am missing something. As an aside, gently caress the bugs in the Deepnest. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 04:24
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Unlucky7 posted:Is there a trick to fighting the Flukemarm? I only have the first nail upgrade, but the Mantis Lords did not give me as much trouble. The only thing I can think of is to spam the soul shot and attack. Maybe use the Fragile Strength charm too, but that is all just pure DPS burning, and it feels like it SHOULD be a simple fight, which makes me think I am missing something. Get enough nail upgrades to one shot the flukefeys
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Feb 25, 2018 04:40
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Unlucky7 posted:Is there a trick to fighting the Flukemarm? I only have the first nail upgrade, but the Mantis Lords did not give me as much trouble. The only thing I can think of is to spam the soul shot and attack. Maybe use the Fragile Strength charm too, but that is all just pure DPS burning, and it feels like it SHOULD be a simple fight, which makes me think I am missing something. Yeah, the most important thing for that fight is definitely being able to one-shot the spawns. If you can't kill one with a single hit, you'll easily get swarmed. Another useful thing: I found it nigh impossible to heal during this fight, so you might as well pour everything into boosting your magic. Stand high enough to effortlessly target Flukemarm with magic blasts. It can also work to abuse the invincibility period that the crash move gives you: jump directly on top of Flukemarm, spam that move three times, jump away quickly. Thanks to the invincibility, you won't be damaged by standing on top of the boss. Tricky to pull off, though.
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Feb 25, 2018 14:06
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Unlucky7 posted:Is there a trick to fighting the Flukemarm? I only have the first nail upgrade, but the Mantis Lords did not give me as much trouble. The only thing I can think of is to spam the soul shot and attack. Maybe use the Fragile Strength charm too, but that is all just pure DPS burning, and it feels like it SHOULD be a simple fight, which makes me think I am missing something. You can make up for a low nail level by using Howling Wraiths. If a minion is coming at you from above, you can hinder it a little by standing under a platform - it'll go straight at you, deflect of the platform and path around. This'll let you bunch them up so you can hit more than one enemy with a single cast. It kinda sounds like you haven't found Wraiths either though, in which case you probably want to go elsewhere and come back after you've collected some more upgrades.
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Feb 25, 2018 14:34
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If you aren't doing that fight in a single extended pogo-jump you're doing it wrong.
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Feb 25, 2018 14:41
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I can't lock myself out of ~the real ending~ in a given save file if I do the normal ending first, right? Which I assume is just killing the three Dreamers, then visiting the Black Egg without having visited The Abyss or doing anything with this awoken Dream Nail or this split charm
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Feb 25, 2018 22:24
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you can't lock yourself out of a later ending, no, if you ever beat the game, the save reloads to just in front of the boss
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Feb 25, 2018 22:28
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Ha, I didn't know that. I backed up my saves for no reason I guess.
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Feb 25, 2018 23:37
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You can, however, lock yourself out of the default ending by never doing it until you qualify for the true ending. There are also a few mutually-exclusive achievements, specifically related to how you handle: Zote Nailsmith Grimm Troupe
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Feb 25, 2018 23:57
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Question about (Or related to, rather) the Dream Nail: So, uh, I unintentionally pasted the Gravekeeper ghost at Dirtmouth. I thought I would just read his mind  . Did he do anything special?Also, do we know when the third DLC pack is released? I am tempted to shelve the game or at least slow down my pace until it comes out.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:32
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Unlucky7 posted:Also, do we know when the third DLC pack is released? I am tempted to shelve the game or at least slow down my pace until it comes out. Early 2018, after the Switch release.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:38
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