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The Hong Kong democracy movement is legit. It’s would have happened with or without anybody’s help. Listen to interviews with the prominent people in the movement. Their desires are authentic and easy to understand in context of what they have lived through.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:36
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Pirate Radar posted:Taiwan is a blue space on the map now, China wants to turn it red, and it has as much right to do so as America did to turn it blue. Never mind that Taiwan itself would rather be green. The KMT always astroturfed a lot of the conflict with the CCP on the mainland in order to wheedle aid out of the US. Many of their military "confrontations" with the mainland would involve them phoning up the PRC garrison on the island they were about to shell to give them a heads up they were going to start firing on them. Also it's risible that you think the DPP has any staying power, especially now that they're only 4 points ahead of the KMT quote:He’ll treat anything that is bad for China(‘s geopolitical goals) as a Western puppet because Western liberalism, like communism, can be treated as an omnipresent specter. This is some of the most intense projection I've ever seen. What is liberals going batshit over Russia interfering with the 2016 election, Alex? icantfindaname posted:
Man the crackers in this thread are hilarious, you guys have gone from accusing me of being a rich fuerdai hypocrite to a poor one. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 02:36
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lol you're talking about projection
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Feb 27, 2018 02:38
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Peven Stan posted:This is some of the most intense projection I've ever seen. What is liberals going batshit over Russia interfering with the 2016 election, Alex? That’s my point, yeah, that if you were pro-America you’d be freaking out about that. Liberals focusing on Russian interference as if Putin personally reached into voting booths to pull the lever for Trump is moronic. You are acting like a liberal.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:47
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Pirate Radar posted:That’s my point, yeah, that if you were pro-America you’d be freaking out about that. Liberals focusing on Russian interference as if Putin personally reached into voting booths to pull the lever for Trump is moronic. You are acting like a liberal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program US Sponsored Islamist Insurgency in Xinjiang? China Jails CIA’s Uighur Imams quote:Left out of the Aljazeera report is the fact Uighur Muslims were present at Osama bin Laden’s CIA-ISI and Saudi funded training camps in Afghanistan prior to 2001. According to journalist Eric Margolis, the CIA used third parties in the effort to train the Uighur. White liberals can admit that they did Patrice Lumumba and Kwame Nkrumah but apparently present day CIA ops must be denied because __________________________ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 27, 2018 02:49
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Peven Stan posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program And Russia did interfere with the American election. I’m glad we’re on the same page here.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:51
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Pirate Radar posted:And Russia did interfere with the American election. I’m glad we’re on the same page here. If you're equating Russia buying Facebook ads to troll hillary with US operations to destabilize and destroy developing countries there is nothing to be discussed here.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:52
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Peven Stan posted:If you're equating Russia buying Facebook ads to troll hillary with US operations to destabilize and destroy developing countries there is nothing to be discussed here. I’m glad we could reach this amount of agreement. It’s a good sign for the thread when posters can engage in this kind of reasoned, productive debate.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:55
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Mistrusting the motives of people criticizing China via comparisons to the US is somehow unreasonable despite this mealy-mouthed tactic being an even more direct descendant of the Cold War mindset. American imperialism should not be downplayed just because your hair ignites every time NYT posts some anti-China agitprop that you swallow uncritically for some reason. Taiwan and South Korea exist at all because the US had a local comprador elite leftover from Japanese occupation to put in power. In SK they murdered communists en masse and lied about it for decades.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:56
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quote:The original source of this article is Infowars 
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Feb 27, 2018 03:10
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Sponsoring Uighur paramilitaries and turning the frogs gay. I've met a bunch of crazy Uighurs and by Islamist fighter/terrorist standards they were pretty chill. So I don't get what China's problem is.
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Feb 27, 2018 03:11
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What's intriguing about Pevan Stan is that he mixes the vaguely correct sounding left-critique of American capitalism so seamlessly with intense racial animosity. He's also singlehandedly powering this thread, and is basically the source of all conversation here. If he's a lonely guy lashing out on the internet, he's certainly found a great way to get attention here.
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Feb 27, 2018 03:19
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Peven Stan posted:The KMT always astroturfed a lot of the conflict with the CCP on the mainland in order to wheedle aid out of the US. Many of their military "confrontations" with the mainland would involve them phoning up the PRC garrison on the island they were about to shell to give them a heads up they were going to start firing on them. did they order the 1995 taiwan strait crisis too?
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Feb 27, 2018 03:48
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Peven Stan posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program Peven Stan in your opinion, is leaderism and a cult of personality rather than collective leadership by the party the correct way to fight cia also what is your opinion of america lynching the negros?
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Feb 27, 2018 03:49
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Mistrusting the motives of people criticizing China via comparisons to the US is somehow unreasonable despite this mealy-mouthed tactic being an even more direct descendant of the Cold War mindset. American imperialism should not be downplayed just because your hair ignites every time NYT posts some anti-China agitprop that you swallow uncritically for some reason. At least they got to become good communists.
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Feb 27, 2018 04:08
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Mistrusting the motives of people criticizing China via comparisons to the US is somehow unreasonable despite this mealy-mouthed tactic being an even more direct descendant of the Cold War mindset. American imperialism should not be downplayed just because your hair ignites every time NYT posts some anti-China agitprop that you swallow uncritically for some reason. the really funny thing is if you are 100% against us imperialism and look to china as some kind of left-wing savior you should be fighting harder against xi subverting Leninist norms and establishing a personal dictatorship than anyone else because this is really, really bad for china
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Feb 27, 2018 04:17
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TsarZiedonis posted:What's intriguing about Pevan Stan is that he mixes the vaguely correct sounding left-critique of American capitalism so seamlessly with intense racial animosity. He's also singlehandedly powering this thread, and is basically the source of all conversation here. If he's a lonely guy lashing out on the internet, he's certainly found a great way to get attention here.
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Feb 27, 2018 05:19
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Taiwan and South Korea exist at all because the US had a local comprador elite leftover from Japanese occupation to put in power. In SK they murdered communists en masse and lied about it for decades. I won’t speak to South Korea but I’d submit that Taiwan is more complicated than “elite left over from Japanese period”. Taiwan, of course, is also no stranger to murdering Communists. By the way, for anyone who doesn’t know, tomorrow is a national holiday in Taiwan that memorializes people killed by the Nationalist government. On 2/28/1947, a riot started in Taipei when police confiscating untaxed cigarettes from a tea house fired into a crowd that was shouting at them. The riot turned into an islandwide uprising demanding greater autonomy and free elections (in which Communist candidates would have been able to stand for election). Chiang Kai-Shek sent extra soldiers from the mainland to suppress the uprising, and martial law was declared. It would last forty years, during which Taiwanese independence activists and other political dissidents were under threat of being disappeared by the police. The incident wasn’t openly acknowledged until after Taiwan’s transition to democracy.
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Feb 27, 2018 06:33
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Pirate Radar posted:By the way, for anyone who doesn’t know, tomorrow is a national holiday in Taiwan that memorializes people killed by the Nationalist government. On 2/28/1947, a riot started in Taipei when police confiscating untaxed cigarettes from a tea house fired into a crowd that was shouting at them. The riot turned into an islandwide uprising demanding greater autonomy and free elections (in which Communist candidates would have been able to stand for election). Chiang Kai-Shek sent extra soldiers from the mainland to suppress the uprising, and martial law was declared. It would last forty years, during which Taiwanese independence activists and other political dissidents were under threat of being disappeared by the police. The incident wasn’t openly acknowledged until after Taiwan’s transition to democracy. Since China is a democracy, when is the national holiday memorializing the people who died at Tiananmen Square?
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Feb 27, 2018 06:42
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McGavin posted:Since China is a democracy, when is the national holiday memorializing the people who died at Tiananmen Square? Okay and who even remembers the bonus army
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Feb 27, 2018 08:32
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Jeoh posted:Okay and who even remembers the bonus army Lots of people? Also only two people died.
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Feb 27, 2018 08:43
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McGavin posted:Since China is a democracy, when is the national holiday memorializing the people who died at Tiananmen Square? Every year by the Chinese and the Great Fire Wall, everybody hunkered down before the 8x8 day and don't post anything funny. Pirate Radar posted:I won’t speak to South Korea but I’d submit that Taiwan is more complicated than “elite left over from Japanese period”. Taiwan, of course, is also no stranger to murdering Communists. Nah it was started by the Japanese fathered basterds who wanted imperial rules back. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 11:42
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Jeoh posted:Okay and who even remembers the bonus army I think we all learn about it at school. Government forces was led by none other than two time Medal of Honor winner and strategic genius Douglas MacArthur.
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Feb 27, 2018 14:43
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Vladimir Putin posted:I think we all learn about it at school. Government forces was led by none other than two time Medal of Honor winner and strategic genius Douglas MacArthur. To get back to the subject of China, he also screwed up the Korean War by drawing China into it, and covered up the crimes of Japanese mad scientists who killed Chinese civilians.
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Feb 27, 2018 21:58
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Silver2195 posted:To get back to the subject of China, he also screwed up the Korean War by drawing China into it, and covered up the crimes of Japanese mad scientists who killed Chinese civilians. He also lost Philippine and let Japan kept the emperor and the right-wing state machine intact. I never like this guy. Patton would have beat him up and taken his lunch. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 23:26
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whatever7 posted:He also lost Philippine and let Japan kept the emperor and the right-wing state machine intact. I never like this guy. He lost he Philippines because the US Navy was getting wrecked. Patton and him are not really comparable. MacArthur held a theater wide command that was like Eisenhower in Europe. Patton was in command of an army.
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Feb 27, 2018 23:32
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Vladimir Putin posted:He lost he Philippines because the US Navy was getting wrecked. Patton and him are not really comparable. MacArthur held a theater wide command that was like Eisenhower in Europe. Patton was in command of an army.
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Feb 28, 2018 00:24
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https://www.quora.com/Could-China-invade-and-occupy-Japan/answer/Wincent-To which one of you is this and who signed me up for China quora emails, I don’t use quora but get emails daily from it about China related questions that usually are filled with insecure answers about how great China is
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Feb 28, 2018 01:44
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whatever7 posted:He also lost Philippine and let Japan kept the emperor and the right-wing state machine intact. I never like this guy. No one could have held the Philippines. He could have held out longer but that's the hottest of takes. They also let all the right-wingers out of jail and back into office because China fell to the communists and everywhere else on the continent was facing a communist backed insurgency. Any American official would have done the same thing. I also hate the man and my great grandfather was part of the Bonus Army so it's personal too but those are terrible reasons. Patton is also incredibly overrated and was very little like George C. Scott's character.
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Feb 28, 2018 02:38
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Patton is George C Scott with Jerry Goldsmith score playing in the background.
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Feb 28, 2018 02:46
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MacArthur’s campaign in the pacific and operation Chromite were more or less strokes of genius.
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Feb 28, 2018 03:05
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MacArthur had a lot of political capital back home, so he was allowed his own separate, special theatre and even got to launch an unnecessary invasion of the Philippines that was run with moderate competency at best and at great cost in human life.
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Feb 28, 2018 03:07
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whatever7 posted:He also lost Philippine and let Japan kept the emperor and the right-wing state machine intact. I never like this guy. I would argue that keeping the emperor is probably the wiser move for USA at the time. Meiji government's political backbone is drawn from their devotion to the emperor, which got them enough support to kick the shogun out. Afterward they reformed the education system and taught that the emperor is a living god on earth and sacrosanct, and it's one the reasons that drove people to become kamikaze pilots. Deposing the emperor and prosecute him for war crime may have resulted in another uprising from a populace that surrendered because the emperor told them to in a country wide radio broadcast, which by 1945 America is already exhausted by war and likely just want it to end. And I do believe MacArthur is a proponent for never getting into a land war in Asia, so better to just protect the emperor in exchange for cease fire.
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Feb 28, 2018 03:11
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They should have at least made Hirohito abdicate but there was genuinely not majority public support for getting rid of the imperial institution, so they couldn’t put it to a refernedum like in Italy. I think the idea that replacing the Emperor with a secular president would have made the postwar far-right any less influential or angry is really deeply naive. It's a thesis that sounds nice but there's no real way to prove it As for the release of war criminals, it wasn't meaningfully different from what happened in Germany. In Germany all trials stopped after 1948 and everyone was released by the early 50s except for a handful of super high profile people like Hess and Speer. There was more turnover in the bureaucracy/deep state in Germany than in Japan, but that was due to factors the Americans really didn’t have much to do with. Beyond that the different paths of postwar reconciliation with the fascist past were/are/have been basically endogenous to Germany and Japan. In Germany’s case the Jews were an ‘internal’ victim to the nation in a way that there’s no real comparison to in Japan. German Jews were basically assimilated politically and socially, and this is combined with the ‘Europeanization’ of German political identity postwar with the EU. Then with the USSR vs China the USSR had a much less nationalistic and much less revisionist view of the war than the CCP, because it won obviously, and didn’t need validation from Germany’s internal politics for its own regime the way PRC China particlarly post 1980 does from Japan. The really important place where there was fascist continuity in Japan and not in Germany was in their postwar economies, Japan's postwar economy was basically run by the same people who ran it during the war, whereas with Germany you have the EU (which itself arguably has some fascist intellectual heritage but not in the same way at all). That was why Kishi was so important, he was the architect of the whole economic system both during and after the war. But this is something the Americans didn't really cause, or at least didn't cause consciously or intentionally and only really got on board with a decade later during the Kennedy administration. I'd have to read more of the history but I don't think in 1948 the US expected Japan to be an economic power of any significance. My impression is that the American occupation was basically clueless as to how the reconfiguration of Japan's economy was happening as it was happening I should go read Adam Tooze's book on the Nazi economy (and hopefully the postwar economy), I've been meaning to for a while now icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 04:14
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icantfindaname posted:They should have at least made Hirohito abdicate but there was genuinely not majority public support for getting rid of the imperial institution, so they couldn’t put it to a refernedum like in Italy. I think the idea that replacing the Emperor with a secular president would have made the postwar far-right any less influential or angry is really deeply naive. It's a thesis that sounds nice but there's no real way to prove it I think what you are saying would have required American to have postwar insight, which they may not have predicted, and Japanese experts to properly weight the pros and cons of deposing the emperor, which they probably don't have in 1945. I remember reading a book that says that compare to Nuremberg, Tokyo war trial is basically ran like an afterthought. Instead I think in 1945, that for the Allies, the two top priorities are a) end the war, and b) make local friends to stop the spreading of the red menace; both Churchill and Truman gave their Iron Curtain and Containment policy speeches in 1946. A grateful Japanese with a fast recovering economy worked out very well during the cold war period.
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Feb 28, 2018 06:20
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symphoniccacophony posted:I would argue that keeping the emperor is probably the wiser move for USA at the time. Meiji government's political backbone is drawn from their devotion to the emperor, which got them enough support to kick the shogun out. Afterward they reformed the education system and taught that the emperor is a living god on earth and sacrosanct, and it's one the reasons that drove people to become kamikaze pilots. He shouldn't be procecuted for war crime because he was 10x more a powerless puppet than Puyi. I honest don't think it was right for the US but rather a factor of the US ideology (particularly the MacAuthor kind). And the worst part is this set Japan on path become a incredible top-down rigid society with very little social movement; non progessive to women and foreigners; with an history-probia mentality. It took 40 years for the fallout to show.
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Feb 28, 2018 10:17
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Agree that Japanese emperor is mostly a powerless puppet, but the hierarchical rigidity of Japan isn't really due to him staying in power. My theory is that it was built into Japanese mindset centuries ago with the introduction of Confucian ideology (and bring this thread back to being China related). I seem to remember some story about a Japanese soldier that was found living alone in some small south pacific island back in the 70's or 80's. He was ordered to guard the island during the war and completely missed the memo that his country surrendered. So he was there for decades still carrying out his order. How's that for rigidity!
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Feb 28, 2018 11:19
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Japan is hardly a confucian society. Korea is confucian and was at one point more confucian than China. Case in point, Japan never gotten rid of its noble class, literaties never had power. In fact none of the emperors in Japan ever had power. Japan was a permanent Cao Cao state where different "Cao Caos" control the access to the emperor and had actual power. Also Japan was a lot more feudal and none centralized until the last few hundred years. Japan is its own civilization.
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Feb 28, 2018 12:37
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Patton was a dweeb.
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Feb 28, 2018 12:49
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whatever7 posted:He shouldn't be procecuted for war crime because he was 10x more a powerless puppet than Puyi. I honest don't think it was right for the US but rather a factor of the US ideology (particularly the MacAuthor kind). And the worst part is this set Japan on path become a incredible top-down rigid society with very little social movement; non progessive to women and foreigners; with an history-probia mentality. It took 40 years for the fallout to show. Read Herbert Bix's biography of Hirohito, there's a strong case that he had a much bigger role, being the one consistent figure in the war room through a revolving door of ministers and governments over the decade. He didn't explicitly influence policy or veto legislation, being above such petty things, but he could make his thoughts known unofficially and proposals he didn't approve of simply never crossed his desk in the first place. To the occupation authorities this looked like a powerless figurehead since that was what they expected to find.
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Feb 28, 2018 13:56
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