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DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.

The Crotch posted:

Wait, it isn't?

...

Dammit.

I'm certainly going to make an arm horn monster now though.

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Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.

Conspiratiorist posted:

That's most of it. They're okay if the DM is giving you a short rest every other fight, and you have 6-8 fights per day, but otherwise you're functioning like a subpar martial with extremely limited casting. Short Rests are a hosed mechanic and are needed for Warlocks to function as intended. The alternative is DMs handing out the third pact slot earlier or a Rod of the Pact Keeper.

The other problem is that the class gives you this wide list of invocations to pick from, but 4-5 of those are so much better than the rest that it's a false choice. And believe me, I've seen newbies running around without Agonizing Blast; it's the saddest thing.

Conspiratiorist posted:

1-encounter days are also hilariously unbalanced in favor of full casters.
The fact that Eldritch Blast is optional at all is pretty odd. I was poking around online and found a pile of people saying warlock was fine because EB was strong, regardless of whether the thread's premise was "warlock is too weak" or "warlock is too strong"--my concern isn't pure char-op, it's just having things to do that don't boil down to firing off an EB every turn. I'd be joining a campaign midway at level 6, so that'd be Agonizing Blast and Book of Ancient Secrets, with one flex slot. Maybe something boring like Armor of Shadows.

I like the fluff for warlocks (and it's a niche that isn't really filled in Pathfinder unless you roll a dark tapestry oracle or a cleric of some eldritch horror), but I feel like I'd get exceedingly bored in combat, with few out-of-combat tricks that aren't schmoozing people with charisma checks.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
Actually you'd want to go Agonizing Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, either Devil's Sight or Repelling Blast, Sculptor of Flesh next level, and the one you didn't take of DS/RB afterwards. That's the Warlock in all of its false-choice glory.

And combat is... yeah, sometimes you open with an instant-effect spell depending on patron, maybe Darkness, or just Hex if you don't already have it up, and the rest of combat is EB. Out of combat utility is okay, but they don't really get many buttons to press during a fight.

Maybe try a Sorcerer or Bard instead? You can dip two levels to steal Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast if you want.

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.
I was planning on a tiefling, so Devil's Sight isn't as critical (although being able to see through magical darkness is pretty big). I guess I might as well load up on the one-per-day spell effects, so Sculptor of Flesh looks good.

I was eyeing sorcerer, but the party already has one. In spite of that, nobody really acts as the face (the ranger does face things because the sorcerer doesn't want to, and rangers are a bad face), so I was leaning towards a non-sorcerer charisma class. I've never really been enthused by bards, but I can look into it. Not as into their whole schtick.

e: I have really strong stat rolls and was considering grabbing Actor to get my charisma to 20, then just using my pact tome as a fake spellbook to pretend to be a lovely wizard instead of a warlock. I don't really know what the point of that is, but I can figure it out later if I go that route.

Elysiume fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Feb 28, 2018

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

Nehru the Damaja posted:

Follow-up, what are some other really fun/unusual deities to be clerics/divine souls/zealots/etc for? I was really pleased with how much extra material I had to work with and how much it livened up the characters when I did clerics of Mystra and Umberlee. I don't want to keep playing Cleric forever but I'm sold on using religion to flesh out interesting details now. But there's so many and it's tricky sometimes to tell the difference between an interesting deity and a deity that makes your character interesting. Like I personally think Mystra is pretty boring but having a cleric from the Magic NRA is a neat angle.
Theres a shitload to pick through in these:

https://www.amazon.com/Faiths-Avatars-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786903848
https://www.amazon.com/Demihuman-Deities-Advanced-Dungeons-Forgotten/dp/0786912391
https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Pantheons-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/078690657X

Almost any of the pile could be entertaining if the character is a little warped.



ritorix posted:

Then some religions have heresies, a small offshoot cult that worships a normal FR god but in a crazy way. 'We worship the sun god Lathander, but only because he's going to consume us all'. A heresy could even take an evil god and make them seem nice. An example is the dark moon heresy.
They wrote a Lathandar schism up officially in some book. The happy Morninglord people vs the Warrior Sun people more or less. Also some drama about Lathandar reinterpreting some part of his Portfolio as "[Something] God of all Time" to "[Something]. (and) God of All Time". The other Powers werent all that alright with it apparently.

Cat Face Joe
Feb 20, 2005

goth vegan crossfit mom who vapes



DalaranJ posted:

I'm certainly going to make an arm horn monster now though.

It has to puff out its cheeks and plug its nose to use the horn.

Psychedelicatessen
Feb 17, 2012

What is the point in multiclassing before you get your final class perk/highest spell slot? Taking a second class to level 2/3 to get their early benefit seems like a good idea, but wouldn't playing a 6/6 character on a team of level 12 friends leave you extremely underlevelled and unable to do anything well in combat?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Psychedelicatessen posted:

What is the point in multiclassing before you get your final class perk/highest spell slot? Taking a second class to level 2/3 to get their early benefit seems like a good idea, but wouldn't playing a 6/6 character on a team of level 12 friends leave you extremely underlevelled and unable to do anything well in combat?

Your proficiency bonus increases as a function of your character level, not your class level, so you should be able to keep pace in most cases.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
It depends on what you're multiclassing as. Some have good synergies that can help make up for that loss of certain abilities. You're still getting the same proficiency bonus as a single-class character as well.

Oops, beaten on that second part.

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013

Elysiume posted:


I like the fluff for warlocks (and it's a niche that isn't really filled in Pathfinder unless you roll a dark tapestry oracle or a cleric of some eldritch horror), but I feel like I'd get exceedingly bored in combat, with few out-of-combat tricks that aren't schmoozing people with charisma checks.

If you're starting at 6th, how about Valor Bard?

Lots of spells, decent fighter, Singing/Inspiration buffs and Jack of all trades for out of combat activities.

Slab Squatthrust
Jun 3, 2008

This is mutiny!
Man, the more I hear about Colville's stronghold KS, the less I like it. The latest video he's talking about the units you recruit, and apparently units are divided by races. Which seems super weird? Like, why can't there be a unit of heavy cav, and it's a mix of races. That seems about ten times more likely than, "Oh hey exactly 100 Elf cavalry just showed up" or whatever. Especially in a setting like Faerun where most empires are big mixes of races. I don't see why they'd suddenly segregate themselves. Also, the things you recruit are based on your Class and Alignment, I haven't seen anything to indicate you can work to choose what sorts of units/people to recruit and change the percentile roll (because of loving course it's a big percentile chart).

I think whenever this hits I'm just going to rip out the costs and whatever rules he has regarding the physical buildings and effects of various followers, and dump the rest. Like hell, you're the guy in charge, can't you put up recruiting posters and send word "Hey we're looking for x, show up and we'll pay you" instead of "Hey randomly anyone come over and maybe we'll give you a job."

User0015
Nov 24, 2007

Please don't talk about your sexuality unless it serves the ~narrative~!

Conspiratiorist posted:

1-encounter days are also hilariously unbalanced in favor of full casters.

Yeah our ToA game is running into this now. As a Paladin, 1-encounter days means I just nova poo poo into powder and I just hit level 5, which means I'm gonna be an rear end in a top hat power gamer and dip into hexblade, then triple dip into divine soul sorcerer because ToA is beating us into paste. On the other hand, our barbarian is really falling behind because she went sword+board and wolf totem instead of something else. I think I'm gonna recommend she either pick up GWM and ditch the shield, or ask the DM to boost her damage a bit. She's rolling 1d6+5 and that's going up to 2d6+10 now, versus our fireball slinging Wizard and me doing, potentially, 2d6+8(two q staff swings) + 3d4(divine favor) + 8d8(three smites) + 1d4 + 4(PAM bonus attack). And when I hit hexblade, those are all going up because I can switch over to CHA for damage.

blastron
Dec 11, 2007

Don't doodle on it!


My favorite thing to do during the interminable hex-crawl in Chapter 2 was give the party two encounters per day sometimes and watch them fall apart because they burned all of their spells on the first one.

Luckily, the players eventually managed to find Omu, and once they reached the Tomb, they discovered that there’s no safe place to rest that doesn’t have undead monstrosities popping out of the walls until much, much later...

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

User0015 posted:

Yeah our ToA game is running into this now. As a Paladin, 1-encounter days means I just nova poo poo into powder and I just hit level 5, which means I'm gonna be an rear end in a top hat power gamer and dip into hexblade, then triple dip into divine soul sorcerer because ToA is beating us into paste. On the other hand, our barbarian is really falling behind because she went sword+board and wolf totem instead of something else. I think I'm gonna recommend she either pick up GWM and ditch the shield, or ask the DM to boost her damage a bit. She's rolling 1d6+5 and that's going up to 2d6+10 now, versus our fireball slinging Wizard and me doing, potentially, 2d6+8(two q staff swings) + 3d4(divine favor) + 8d8(three smites) + 1d4 + 4(PAM bonus attack). And when I hit hexblade, those are all going up because I can switch over to CHA for damage.

Divine Favor is a bad spell; don't use it.

doctor 7
Oct 10, 2003

In the grim darkness of the future there is only Oakley.

The Gate posted:

Man, the more I hear about Colville's stronghold KS, the less I like it. The latest video he's talking about the units you recruit, and apparently units are divided by races. Which seems super weird? Like, why can't there be a unit of heavy cav, and it's a mix of races. That seems about ten times more likely than, "Oh hey exactly 100 Elf cavalry just showed up" or whatever. Especially in a setting like Faerun where most empires are big mixes of races. I don't see why they'd suddenly segregate themselves. Also, the things you recruit are based on your Class and Alignment, I haven't seen anything to indicate you can work to choose what sorts of units/people to recruit and change the percentile roll (because of loving course it's a big percentile chart).

I think whenever this hits I'm just going to rip out the costs and whatever rules he has regarding the physical buildings and effects of various followers, and dump the rest. Like hell, you're the guy in charge, can't you put up recruiting posters and send word "Hey we're looking for x, show up and we'll pay you" instead of "Hey randomly anyone come over and maybe we'll give you a job."

He also says in one of his videos that you can complete ignore these limitations and do whatever makes sense to you. If you want to roll on another chart and it makes sense to do so why not? If you want to mix up the races of this unit you got, why not?

Slab Squatthrust
Jun 3, 2008

This is mutiny!

doctor 7 posted:

He also says in one of his videos that you can complete ignore these limitations and do whatever makes sense to you. If you want to roll on another chart and it makes sense to do so why not? If you want to mix up the races of this unit you got, why not?

5e.txt

"Bad design? No no, you can do anything you want!"

And yeah, that's true, but it would be nice to have something professionally designed from the ground up that makes sense and is balanced. I'm sure I can hack something together, but I'm also not a game designer.

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever

Ok, pop quiz. Staff of Power vs Staff of the Magi.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

The Gate posted:

The latest video he's talking about the units you recruit, and apparently units are divided by races. Which seems super weird? Like, why can't there be a unit of heavy cav, and it's a mix of races. That seems about ten times more likely than, "Oh hey exactly 100 Elf cavalry just showed up" or whatever. Especially in a setting like Faerun where most empires are big mixes of races.
Most of the major areas are pretty dominated by the local race or two, and theres some practical stuff like "heavy cavalry" among humans isnt going to be the same physical thing as it will with dwarfs or halflings.

But like every game everywhere, do what works for you.

doctor 7
Oct 10, 2003

In the grim darkness of the future there is only Oakley.

The Gate posted:

5e.txt

"Bad design? No no, you can do anything you want!"

And yeah, that's true, but it would be nice to have something professionally designed from the ground up that makes sense and is balanced. I'm sure I can hack something together, but I'm also not a game designer.

I don't quite get this here. You don't have to hack anything, just roll of whatever table you think works for your character and instead of "100 elves" you have "100 people of various races." Nothing needs to be rebalanced as you are changing a table roll and flavour respectively.

At work I listen to podcasts and videos in the background. I started DMing for some friends after a long hiatus after finding Colville's channel and going "yeah sure I'll give it ago" so I have listened to a bunch of his stuff.

I get what you're saying in that you want the tables to mesh with your game right away but Colville's big theme in a lot of his videos is basically do what makes sense for your game. His huge praise for 5e is the whole idea that it is easy to house rule. If you're looking at his thing going "well that doesn't make sense to me I would do it like X" he would respond with "gently caress yeah, you do it that way man."

Some people may like the way it is written, I am with you. Having a multi-ethnic fighting group makes sense to me, given the context of the campaigns I run and play in. But I don't see how that can't be remedied by just going "well rolling on this other table makes more sense to me" and making a unit multi-ethnic. Especially when the guy making the book specially says "you don't have to limit your table rolls to your class if it doesn't make sense for you. Roll on another table if it's what you want!"

User0015
Nov 24, 2007

Please don't talk about your sexuality unless it serves the ~narrative~!

Conspiratiorist posted:

Divine Favor is a bad spell; don't use it.

I'm just talking about nova potential, assuming a prep round. The real question is what's more damage and when: 6 paladin/1 hex/3 sorcerer. So at level 10 or earlier, do I switch out for GFB/BB usage, or continue using Extra attack? Lets see:

1. Regular attack: 2d6+12 (4 cha + 2 dueling * 2) + 1d4 + 6 (PAM) + 6d8 (3 smites) or alternatively give up PAM and curse it, so flat +8 plus double crit chance. Also burns 3 spell slots.
2. GFB: 1d6+6 + 1d8 + 1d8+8 (spell cast modifier of prof 4 + cha 4) + 2d8 (smite). Burns 1 spell slot
3. Hell is coming: Twin GFB --> 1d6+6 (one melee) + 2d8 (two hits to primary) + 2d8+16 (two hits to secondary) + 2d8 (smite) + Quick GFB --> 1d6+6 + 1d8 + 1d8+8 + 2d8(smite). burn all sorcery points, 2 spells.

Holy poo poo. Did I math that right? 7d8+24 + 2d6+12 ~= 75 damage on average in one round?

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

DandyLion posted:

Ok, pop quiz. Staff of Power vs Staff of the Magi.

Magi so you can flip a coin to do 800 damage to yourself.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow

Kaysette posted:

Magi so you can flip a coin to do 800 damage to yourself.

They both do that.

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

Arthil posted:

They both do that.

Magi has way more charges so the damage is much higher.

OfChristandMen
Feb 14, 2006

GENERIC CANDY AVATAR #2

doctor 7 posted:

I don't quite get this here. You don't have to hack anything, just roll of whatever table you think works for your character and instead of "100 elves" you have "100 people of various races." Nothing needs to be rebalanced as you are changing a table roll and flavour respectively.

At work I listen to podcasts and videos in the background. I started DMing for some friends after a long hiatus after finding Colville's channel and going "yeah sure I'll give it ago" so I have listened to a bunch of his stuff.

I get what you're saying in that you want the tables to mesh with your game right away but Colville's big theme in a lot of his videos is basically do what makes sense for your game. His huge praise for 5e is the whole idea that it is easy to house rule. If you're looking at his thing going "well that doesn't make sense to me I would do it like X" he would respond with "gently caress yeah, you do it that way man."

Some people may like the way it is written, I am with you. Having a multi-ethnic fighting group makes sense to me, given the context of the campaigns I run and play in. But I don't see how that can't be remedied by just going "well rolling on this other table makes more sense to me" and making a unit multi-ethnic. Especially when the guy making the book specially says "you don't have to limit your table rolls to your class if it doesn't make sense for you. Roll on another table if it's what you want!"

I think the weirder thing for me as a DM is how much influence is put on these singular roles. Someone could roll on the table to only have 2... out of 2d6 specific type class army follower show up... but also 12 as a possibility? Seems very difficult to balance / manage as a DM and a player. There can be big disparities in what shows up, which I guess is following those AD&D tables and such, but it feels weird to me it's not a spectrum versus a dice. For example, I'd be happier with "2 level 4 followers or 12 level 2 followers" as a trade off.

Still excited to get the book and incorporate what could be interesting world building into the land. I think the Followers & Stronghold could be really great for populating a land with full strongholds if you're a rogue evil group looking to ransack areas, or if you're a good-natured group up against the fortresses of evil.

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003

Pillbug

Elysiume posted:

I've been looking at warlock, and I'm curious what you mean by its core mechanics being hosed. Personally I look at the miserably small number of spells they get per rest, and can only see the choice between doing nothing but eldritch blasts and constantly whining at the party to take a rest so you can cast a second spell today. Is there something else (and am I overestimating how meager their spells are)?

They're a fine class. I've got a level 17 pure Warlock. The limited spell slots are not a big deal because you're more of a utility class that helps out in those weird situations that come up. Opening gates and dimension doors, polymorphing people when the healer is wrecked, reading anything and everything at all times, seeing everything, etc. Casting invis at will. Counterspell. Dispell. Feeblemind. Hypnotic pattern, etc. The Eldritch blast is constant damage with +15 to hit and then another 4d12 with Crown of Stars going. You're going to get shown up by cool abilities from other classes, but I've seen entire rounds of people all missing except for myself. You will almost always have slots left to burn at boss encounters, and if it had adds, you can simply banish them with a DC20. A Warlock complaining about short rests hasn't played one enough I'd imagine. I would love a Rod of the Pact Keeper, but not for the extra spell slot. I want the increased DC. True Polymorph is also pretty neat. Ever want to be an adult dragon? Ok. Oh, and Hex is kinda okay too. Extra d6 to all your damage, sureeeee!

I dunno, I've got many high level characters (Fighter, Paladin, Cleric) and the pure Warlock is the most fun. The high charisma skills lets you talk your way through just about anything.

They have the most flavor. I've been playing mine for over two years now with god knows how many hours on him.

Edit: Looked at my log sheet, I've got at least 108 hours played on him.

Philthy fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Feb 28, 2018

Remora
Aug 15, 2010

Hey, sorry if this has been covered recently, I'm not in a position to dig back through 1200 pages at the moment, but I was wondering if there were any resource the thread thought well of covering the Volo's Guide races - I'm in the middle of writing the setting for a 5e campaign, and I'm not terribly impressed with some of the racials - kobolds, for example. I'm also reasonably new to 5e, and not sure how balanced these races are compared to the core ones. Any assistance would be appreciated.

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



Over on Big Purple I'm trying to get advice on making a leader type Tactician class that's still in the early stages and is meant to be in the same design space as cleric and bard, and so anyone interested in warlordy things that wants to give advice can do that over there if they have an account or in here if they think that's cool.

The main design 'hook' is the class has two main features:

Stratagems that are hugeass buffs that represent your big buff/damage spells like "everyone has a bunch of temporary HP" or "Everyone gets +1d6 to attack rolls" that you only have one active at a time but swap out on a short rest, with more 'variations' as you level, e.g. attack buff adds on improved crit, health buff adds on legendary saves.

Commands that are smaller reaction-based abilities that always have a 'choice' to how to use them. E.g. "Last Reserves" command triggers when an ally is reduced to 0 HP, choose to either keep them at 1HP or give them one final full turn immediately before they flop. "Retry" command triggers on an ally miss to let an ally either reroll an attack, or mark the enemy to give the next person to try attacking it advantage.

The main inspiration is that a lot of homebrew warlord archetypes/classes are neat but they're fighter-adjacent, not cleric or bard adjacent.

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.

Philthy posted:

They're a fine class. I've got a level 17 pure Warlock. The limited spell slots are not a big deal because you're more of a utility class that helps out in those weird situations that come up. Opening gates and dimension doors, polymorphing people when the healer is wrecked, reading anything and everything at all times, seeing everything, etc. Casting invis at will. Counterspell. Dispell. Feeblemind. Hypnotic pattern, etc. The Eldritch blast is constant damage with +15 to hit and then another 4d12 with Crown of Stars going. You're going to get shown up by cool abilities from other classes, but I've seen entire rounds of people all missing except for myself. You will almost always have slots left to burn at boss encounters, and if it had adds, you can simply banish them with a DC20. A Warlock complaining about short rests hasn't played one enough I'd imagine. I would love a Rod of the Pact Keeper, but not for the extra spell slot. I want the increased DC. True Polymorph is also pretty neat. Ever want to be an adult dragon? Ok. Oh, and Hex is kinda okay too. Extra d6 to all your damage, sureeeee!

I dunno, I've got many high level characters (Fighter, Paladin, Cleric) and the pure Warlock is the most fun. The high charisma skills lets you talk your way through just about anything.

They have the most flavor. I've been playing mine for over two years now with god knows how many hours on him.

Edit: Looked at my log sheet, I've got at least 108 hours played on him.
To clarify regarding short rests, I've never played 5e. I'm used to Pathfinder, where short rests aren't a thing that exists (in most cases), so I have no idea how much 5e pushes them. Even full casters feel weirdly limited coming from Pathfinder. A level 20 PF wizard will have ~53 spells per day, with ~15 at 7th-9th, while a level 20 5e wizard will have 22 spells per day, with 6 at 7th-9th. Expecting casters to spend more time casting damaging cantrips (PF damaging cantrips are awful) and less time casting higher level spells is something I'll have to get used to.

Grabbing some utility spells (Charm Person, Invisibility, Suggestion, Counterspell, Dispel Magic) and decent utility cantrips (Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion) in addition to the required Eldritch Blast should provide a decent amount of well-roundedness. I think I'd be the only one in the party who does rituals (I doubt the sorcerer took the rituals feat, but I'll check), which fills a good out-of-combat niche.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005

Do people find Sorcerer to be satisfying when focusing on battlefield control? I'm getting sick of my one-trick pony warlock in another game and thought about retiring him for a Divine Soul of the Red Knight who mostly acts as a support caster, twinner of Guiding Bolt, etc. There's also Shadow Sorcerer effectively giving repeated Heightened Spell via the dog but it might be a bit more edge than I'm ready for.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

User0015 posted:

I'm just talking about nova potential, assuming a prep round. The real question is what's more damage and when: 6 paladin/1 hex/3 sorcerer. So at level 10 or earlier, do I switch out for GFB/BB usage, or continue using Extra attack? Lets see:

1. Regular attack: 2d6+12 (4 cha + 2 dueling * 2) + 1d4 + 6 (PAM) + 6d8 (3 smites) or alternatively give up PAM and curse it, so flat +8 plus double crit chance. Also burns 3 spell slots.
2. GFB: 1d6+6 + 1d8 + 1d8+8 (spell cast modifier of prof 4 + cha 4) + 2d8 (smite). Burns 1 spell slot
3. Hell is coming: Twin GFB --> 1d6+6 (one melee) + 2d8 (two hits to primary) + 2d8+16 (two hits to secondary) + 2d8 (smite) + Quick GFB --> 1d6+6 + 1d8 + 1d8+8 + 2d8(smite). burn all sorcery points, 2 spells.

Holy poo poo. Did I math that right? 7d8+24 + 2d6+12 ~= 75 damage on average in one round?

If you have a prep round then you do more for the party DPR casting Bless than Divine Favor. It's just a bad spell. But you're getting Curse anyway.

Also, you can't Twin GFB.

Honestly you're spreading yourself too thin; if you wanted to play Sorcadin you only take two levels of Paladin for the smites and would've skipped PAM. As you're now, continuing on Paladin you'd have 4 3 2 (compared to 4 3 3 with sorc 3) slots and an extra +1 to hit/damage by level 10.

Nehru the Damaja posted:

Do people find Sorcerer to be satisfying when focusing on battlefield control? I'm getting sick of my one-trick pony warlock in another game and thought about retiring him for a Divine Soul of the Red Knight who mostly acts as a support caster, twinner of Guiding Bolt, etc. There's also Shadow Sorcerer effectively giving repeated Heightened Spell via the dog but it might be a bit more edge than I'm ready for.

Sorc's battlefield control is Hold, Web, and Hypnotic Pattern (and in Divine Soul's case, Spirit Guardians). Your metamagic goes towards twinning excellent concentration buffs like Haste and Greater Invisibility, or quickening when you need your action for something else like Dodge or use an item or just casting a cantrip for more damage.

Basically, Sorc is about doing damage and maintaining concentration. Hound and Heightened aren't cost-effective use of SP for most of your career, nor do you really have the spells known available to gently caress around with spells other than those that are the generally most powerful and useful for a given level.

I suggest you draft up a level 6 or 7 spell list so you get an idea of what you're getting yourself into in terms of casting. Sorcs are good and fun, but they're only a step above Warlocks in terms of versatility.

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003

Pillbug

Elysiume posted:

To clarify regarding short rests, I've never played 5e. I'm used to Pathfinder, where short rests aren't a thing that exists (in most cases), so I have no idea how much 5e pushes them. Even full casters feel weirdly limited coming from Pathfinder. A level 20 PF wizard will have ~53 spells per day, with ~15 at 7th-9th, while a level 20 5e wizard will have 22 spells per day, with 6 at 7th-9th. Expecting casters to spend more time casting damaging cantrips (PF damaging cantrips are awful) and less time casting higher level spells is something I'll have to get used to.

Grabbing some utility spells (Charm Person, Invisibility, Suggestion, Counterspell, Dispel Magic) and decent utility cantrips (Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion) in addition to the required Eldritch Blast should provide a decent amount of well-roundedness. I think I'd be the only one in the party who does rituals (I doubt the sorcerer took the rituals feat, but I'll check), which fills a good out-of-combat niche.

It really depends how you're playing. My Warlock is Adventure League, so he plays 4-8 hour long sessions that typically have 3 encounters balanced to "challenge" a party of 7 with one of them being a major encounter. One short rest is generally allowed in the session. I've never used all my slots.

In a campaign home brew game, this is entirely dependent on your DM. Most I've played with know how people like to play, and if they saw a player being a Warlock with no spell slots for the session he would probably realize that might be really loving boring for the Warlock unless said Warlock just plays like an idiot and burns everything immediately.

I never got high level in Pathfinder. I believe my Inquisitor made it to 5th or 6th level before I realized I was insane trying to spend more time playing weekly games than my full time job. Which kind of sucks because I flipping love my Inquisitor.

As an aside, has anyone converted the Pathfinder Inquisitor over to 5e? We have a new campaign starting and the DM said he'd entertain a class conversion because how much I told him I liked the class. I mostly like being able to change your "power" on yourself with a free action per turn and how it scales, and then later being able to cast it on 2-3 other people in the party and such. It's just a cool mechanic. The spell lists reminded me of my Warlock because they were the utility spells that party members are always thankful for that SOMEONE has them available be cause they covert their big boom spells.

Nehru the Damaja posted:

Do people find Sorcerer to be satisfying when focusing on battlefield control? I'm getting sick of my one-trick pony warlock in another game and thought about retiring him for a Divine Soul of the Red Knight who mostly acts as a support caster, twinner of Guiding Bolt, etc. There's also Shadow Sorcerer effectively giving repeated Heightened Spell via the dog but it might be a bit more edge than I'm ready for.

If you are purely looking for control, a Bard is your man. They are not only hilarious to RP, they literally break the game when they get an instrument.

Philthy fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Mar 1, 2018

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.

Philthy posted:

It really depends how you're playing. My Warlock is Adventure League, so he plays 4-8 hour long sessions that typically have 3 encounters balanced to "challenge" a party of 7 with one of them being a major encounter. One short rest is generally allowed in the session. I've never used all my slots.

In a campaign home brew game, this is entirely dependent on your DM. Most I've played with know how people like to play, and if they saw a player being a Warlock with no spell slots for the session he would probably realize that might be really loving boring for the Warlock unless said Warlock just plays like an idiot and burns everything immediately.

I never got high level in Pathfinder. I believe my Inquisitor made it to 5th or 6th level before I realized I was insane trying to spend more time playing weekly games than my full time game. Which kind of sucks because I flipping love my Inquisitor.

As an aside, has anyone converted it over to 5e? We have a new campaign starting and the DM said he'd entertain a class conversion because how much I told him I liked the class. I mostly like being able to change your "power" on yourself with a free action per turn and how it scales, and then later being able to cast it on 2-3 other people in the party and such. It's just a cool mechanic.
My DM seems pretty chill, so I think I'm going to give it a shot. Inquisitor is super cool, and way up on the list of classes I'd like to play. I haven't found a conversion, but if you find one, I'd be interested in it.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

Philthy posted:

They're a fine class. I've got a level 17 pure Warlock. The limited spell slots are not a big deal because you're more of a utility class that helps out in those weird situations that come up. Opening gates and dimension doors, polymorphing people when the healer is wrecked, reading anything and everything at all times, seeing everything, etc. Casting invis at will. Counterspell. Dispell. Feeblemind. Hypnotic pattern, etc. The Eldritch blast is constant damage with +15 to hit and then another 4d12 with Crown of Stars going. You're going to get shown up by cool abilities from other classes, but I've seen entire rounds of people all missing except for myself. You will almost always have slots left to burn at boss encounters, and if it had adds, you can simply banish them with a DC20. A Warlock complaining about short rests hasn't played one enough I'd imagine. I would love a Rod of the Pact Keeper, but not for the extra spell slot. I want the increased DC. True Polymorph is also pretty neat. Ever want to be an adult dragon? Ok. Oh, and Hex is kinda okay too. Extra d6 to all your damage, sureeeee!

I dunno, I've got many high level characters (Fighter, Paladin, Cleric) and the pure Warlock is the most fun. The high charisma skills lets you talk your way through just about anything.

They have the most flavor. I've been playing mine for over two years now with god knows how many hours on him.

Edit: Looked at my log sheet, I've got at least 108 hours played on him.

Thanks for sharing but the thing is, everything you've mentioned, a Sorcerer does better.

NeurosisHead
Jul 22, 2007

NONONONONONONONONO

Conspiratiorist posted:

Thanks for sharing but the thing is, everything you've mentioned, a Sorcerer does better.

What if he's having fun?

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

NeurosisHead posted:

What if he's having fun?

That's great for him but unhelpful and misleading for a person asking for advice. Hell, just a few posts before we have someone complaining about how tired they are of playing a Warlock.

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

Nehru the Damaja posted:

Do people find Sorcerer to be satisfying when focusing on battlefield control? I'm getting sick of my one-trick pony warlock in another game and thought about retiring him for a Divine Soul of the Red Knight who mostly acts as a support caster, twinner of Guiding Bolt, etc. There's also Shadow Sorcerer effectively giving repeated Heightened Spell via the dog but it might be a bit more edge than I'm ready for.

I’d suggest divination wizard instead. Way more control options and you can make things fail checks with portent.

On an unrelated note, lol if you are taking more than two or three warlock levels in tyool 2018.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005

It was literally the first character I ever made in D&D, just a little over a year ago. I was super excited about the flavor of warlocks and it wasn't until later that I realized "wow it really doesn't get more nuanced than this huh?"

I've played a Lore Bard before and absolutely loved it, but I'm looking to try something I haven't done before. I think the thing I don't like about Divination Wizard is that even though Portent is obviously insane, they don't seem to have much flavor -- like even less than the other wizard schools.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow

Nehru the Damaja posted:

It was literally the first character I ever made in D&D, just a little over a year ago. I was super excited about the flavor of warlocks and it wasn't until later that I realized "wow it really doesn't get more nuanced than this huh?"

I've played a Lore Bard before and absolutely loved it, but I'm looking to try something I haven't done before. I think the thing I don't like about Divination Wizard is that even though Portent is obviously insane, they don't seem to have much flavor -- like even less than the other wizard schools.

I decided to throw together a Vistani Divination Wizard whose spellbook is the tarokka deck they carry around.

CaPensiPraxis
Feb 7, 2013

When in france...
Make up a portent: "I see the image of a falling sack of flour."

When you make someone fail a check it's because they get beaned by a falling sack of flour. It comes out of midair and falls on them. Because you are a wizard and foresaw this happening. Divination.

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Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

How does a Sorcadin work, exactly? 2 levels of Paladin to get Smite, but with CHA as highest ability don’t you give up a lot of melee damage and/or HP? With Hexblade I see how it works.

Also a little worried about being in melee with a Sorceror’s HP, I admit.

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