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Hodgepodge posted:No, Mace had disarmed Palpatine and had him backed into a corner. Palpatine's own Force Lightning is killing him- Mace isn't taken off guard without a lightsaber like Luke is. The fight is over when Anakin walks in, without him Palpatine is dead. No. Hahahah . My god that isn't what happens.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:17
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euphronius posted:No. Hahahah . My god that isn't what happens. You might try watching it. Anakin walks in on Palpatine disarmed in a corner. He uses his Force Lighting on Mace, but while Mace struggles with it, it is literally killing Palpatine. It's the only thing holding Mace's lightsaber back. He's failing to defend himself with a weapon which Mace is turning back on him without being harmed by it.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:23
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Hahaha omg . Are you fake posting me.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:24
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Hodgepodge posted:You might try watching it. Anakin walks in on Palpatine disarmed in a corner. He uses his Force Lighting on Mace, but while Mace struggles with it, it is literally killing Palpatine. It's the only thing holding Mace's lightsaber back. He's failing to defend himself with a weapon which Mace is turning back on him without being harmed by it. Good lord.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:24
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sassassin posted:Good lord. The weird part of this is that your argument hinges on Sheev's plan being at once so flexible that no matter what, he wins, but at the same time he has to have omnisciently controlled Mace's every action to set up exactly the circumstances which Anakin walks in on. So which is it? Did he need to set things up just like that, or he would have failed? Or would he have succeeded no matter what the state of the fight Anakin walked in on? Don't just hide behind expressions of disbelief. That's just your own disbelief that someone could disagree with a consensus that you are shocked is being challenged.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:28
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Like I just watched a YouTube video of the scene and transcribed what I saw. And you guys are shocked by that.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:30
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Hodgepodge posted:The weird part of this is that your argument hinges on Sheev's plan being at once so flexible that no matter what, he wins, but at the same time he has to have omnisciently controlled Mace's every action to set up exactly the circumstances which Anakin walks in on. He knows where Anakin is, he can sense him, he knows who is about to walk in. And he doesn't need to have all the possible outcomes planned out in advance, he has the power as Supreme Chancellor to figure things out on the fly. If Anakin hadn't come to his chambers right then, he probably just kills Mace too and then figures out some other way to make the final pitch to Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:35
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Hodgepodge posted:Like I just watched a YouTube video of the scene and transcribed what I saw. And you guys are shocked by that. You are seeing exactly what Palpatine was hoping Anakin would see. This is not, however, what was actually going on. This is going to sound crazy, I know, but Palpatine was manipulating the situation, to force Anakin to make the choice. You're taking the scene at face value, when everything involving Palpatine up until this point has been a lie, a farce, an illusion constructed to A) gain control of the Republic and, B) wipe out the Jedi and C) turn Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:38
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Mace was a phantom menace.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:39
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Sheev's confession that he is a Sith presents no danger to him at this point in the films. He controls the senate with both his official executive powers, and his general politicking. An arrest on the grounds of having an evil religion would be dismissed as ludicrous. That he has orchestrated the war wholesale cannot be proven. His confession simply a) provokes the Jedi into rash action and b) ensures that Anakin will safeguard his life, as it is now apparently the only way to save Padme's. An attempted coup d'etat gives him every public excuse needed to launch a retaliatory campaign of extermination. They come to arrest him and he deliberately escalates things. He is a powerful space wizard and master manipulator. He knew when Anakin would arrive, and save him, and waited until the poor stupid boy had committed himself before unleashing his Ultimate Power. Mace lost the moment he let his anger and fear control him and tried to strike the (soon) Emperor down.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:42
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I prefer the reading that Windu had Palpatine on the ropes and the only thing that saved him was Anakin
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Mar 2, 2018 20:43
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thrawn527 posted:You are seeing exactly what Palpatine was hoping Anakin would see. This is not, however, what was actually going on. This is going to sound crazy, I know, but Palpatine was manipulating the situation, to force Anakin to make the choice. You're taking the scene at face value, when everything involving Palpatine up until this point has been a lie, a farce, an illusion constructed to A) gain control of the Republic and, B) wipe out the Jedi and C) turn Anakin. Even turning Anakin is like plan A, with plan B being to just make sure that he can't survive to become more powerful and potentially become a problem later. For instance, if Anakin had been killed by Dooku at the beginning of RotS, Palpatine would've been fine with that and he'd just continue on with Dooku. It's not like he considers Anakin absolutely essential to his plan.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:44
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When I was 14 I had Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: The Ultimate Visual Guide ( ) and I remember one caption near the end mentioning that Palpatine only wanted the most powerful apprentice available, and when he realises that Anakin has lost most of his power as a result of being put in the Vader suit, he's immediately started thinking about how to replace him.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:47
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Basebf555 posted:He knows where Anakin is, he can sense him, he knows who is about to walk in. And he doesn't need to have all the possible outcomes planned out in advance, he has the power as Supreme Chancellor to figure things out on the fly. If Anakin hadn't come to his chambers right then, he probably just kills Mace too and then figures out some other way to make the final pitch to Anakin. How does he kill Mace? He's disarmed and brought to the point of death. It's a worthwhile argument that he needed to let it get to that point to turn Anakin. But if that is the case, then he couldn't have just killed Mace and figured something out. Following that argument, he risks being one blow away from death intentionally because it's the only way to turn Anakin. Why do that, if he can turn Anakin either way? The other possibility is that he really is hosed, but knows that Anakin is coming and that gives him a chance, which he successfully gambles on. This actually supports your argument that "he has the power as Supreme Chancellor to figure things out on the fly" with less necessary assumptions to bog things down. Figuring things out on the fly entails being willing to gamble it all. He has the faith in Anakin that the Jedi lack, but it is faith in Anakin's "dark side." I'm not sure why people are so attached to the idea that Sheev would beat Mace in a fight. His strength is never in being able to beat the Jedi in a fight. In the fights we see, he wins despite not being able to outright beat Mace or Yoda in combat- once by turning Anakin, once because he only needs to get away. But to get back to the original point, if Anakin is with Mace when they walk in to arrest him, he is put in a position where he has to surrender or attack Anakin as well as Mace and the Jedi mooks. Maybe he can figure things out to turn Anakin if he surrenders, but his hold on the Senate is compromised and the star witness against him is... Anakin. He's put directly in opposition to Anakin either way, while the rift between Anakin and the Jedi is, if not completely healed, then closed to a considerable degree. He also has to actually spit out some details on how he'll save Padme, and do so before she gives birth, if he wants to have any leverage on Anakin at all.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:50
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He's losing on purpose.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:51
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Hodgepodge posted:But to get back to the original point, if Anakin is with Mace when they walk in to arrest him, he is put in a position where he has to surrender or attack Anakin as well as Mace and the Jedi mooks. Maybe he can figure things out to turn Anakin if he surrenders, but his hold on the Senate is compromised and the star witness against him is... Anakin. He's put directly in opposition to Anakin either way, while the rift between Anakin and the Jedi is, if not completely healed, then closed to a considerable degree. He also has to actually spit out some details on how he'll save Padme, and do so before she gives birth, if he wants to have any leverage on Anakin at all. I get what you're saying but I still think the power of his political position would be too much for the Jedi. That's something that Mace is actually correct about, the Jedi have been so ignorant and foolish for so long, that they've left themselves with very few options. If we're just tossing out hypotheticals, it's pretty easy for me to imagine Palpatine manipulating Anakin further by telling him that in order to access the secrets that will save Padme's life, he has to do X, Y and Z to help clear Palp's name in the Senate.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:56
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euphronius posted:He's losing on purpose. Why bother, unless that's the only way to turn Anakin? My point is that he'd only do that if he needs to. If he could turn Anakin without doing so, he'd take that route. We have a scenario where he does lose to Mace and does turn Anakin. So either a) he needed to lose to Mace to turn Anakin, or b) he needed Anakin to turn in order beat Mace, or c) both. Otherwise it's much better for him to both beat Mace and turn Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:58
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Hodgepodge posted:But to get back to the original point, if Anakin is with Mace when they walk in to arrest him, he is put in a position where he has to surrender or attack Anakin as well as Mace and the Jedi mooks. Maybe he can figure things out to turn Anakin if he surrenders, but his hold on the Senate is compromised and the star witness against him is... Anakin. He's put directly in opposition to Anakin either way, while the rift between Anakin and the Jedi is, if not completely healed, then closed to a considerable degree. He also has to actually spit out some details on how he'll save Padme, and do so before she gives birth, if he wants to have any leverage on Anakin at all. They aren't mooks they are council members. Sheev swats them down in seconds and then puts on a show with the angriest, dark-sidiest guy available, to build his narrative.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:59
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Basebf555 posted:I get what you're saying but I still think the power of his political position would be too much for the Jedi. That's something that Mace is actually correct about, the Jedi have been so ignorant and foolish for so long, that they've left themselves with very few options. I mean, yeah, you can imagine a scenario where Palpatine manages somehow. He's a wily old fox, after all. But the films make the point of showing the Jedi being given many chances to trust Anakin and pushing him away and towards Palpatine instead. To illustrate that theme at work, here's why Anakin stays behind: quote:ANAKIN: Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You will need my help if you are going to arrest him. That's the moment where, despite Anakin making a clear choice of the Jedi over the Sith, Mace fails to trust him. This leave Anakin to stew in his doubts and fears in the next scene: quote:125 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI COUNCIL/PADME'S APARTMENT-EARLY EVENING Then we cut to Mace and mooks confronting Palpatine. sassassin posted:They aren't mooks they are council members. Sheev swats them down in seconds and then puts on a show with the angriest, dark-sidiest guy available, to build his narrative. Guys whose name we only know if we are paying very close attention who accompany the guy played by a star whose name was synonymous with "badass" and whose character's name was a contender for the main characters of the series, but get cut down to show that the bad guy is a threat to the important character- those are mooks. I mean, maybe I should say they get Worfed, but Worf is an important main character. If Mace got clearly beaten, that would be being Worfed.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:06
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Hodgepodge posted:How does he kill Mace? He's disarmed and brought to the point of death. I'm curious, why do you think Sheev went from feebly saying, "I can't hold him...I'm too weak..." to an extreme explosion of lightning and screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!" in less than a minute? Could it be that maybe he was lying about the first thing he said? Or was that just a really recharging minute, like a Force power nap?
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Mar 2, 2018 21:08
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Those moments are indicative of the problem, you're right about that, but it's been a problem for Anakin's entire adult life. They don't trust him, they never have. I'm just of the opinion that this particular moment in RotS was too late, it was a lost cause at that point because for me the true point of no return was when Palpatine offered to help Anakin save Padme and the Jedi(Yoda) ignored his cries for help and instead gave him patronizing advice.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:10
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thrawn527 posted:I'm curious, why do you think Sheev went from feebly saying, "I can't hold him...I'm too weak..." to an extreme explosion of lightning and screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!" in less than a minute? Could it be that maybe he was lying about the first thing he said? Or was that just a really recharging minute, like a Force power nap? The unlimited power line comes after Anakin has slashed off Mace's arm and there is nothing left to oppose the Force Lightning. He definitely plays up being weak for Anakin's benefit, but shouting "unlimited power!" is his cry of triumph after he has won. That only comes after Anakin interrupts Mace's deathblow. I have the script open, so: quote:MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR. Basebf555 posted:Those moments are indicative of the problem, you're right about that, but it's been a problem for Anakin's entire adult life. They don't trust him, they never have. I'm just of the opinion that this particular moment in RotS was too late, it was a lost cause at that point because for me the true point of no return was when Palpatine offered to help Anakin save Padme and the Jedi(Yoda) ignored his cries for help and instead gave him patronizing advice. They make the same mistakes repeatedly, but whichever one picks as the most important, the point remains that any one of those moments was a chance to change the dynamic between the Jedi Council and Anakin, and they fail every time. But the outcome hinged on Anakin, and they fail to realize that their job is use their strength and wisdom to support him rather than to rely on those qualities to empower themselves. Any change to the dynamic and Palpatine's victory is much less likely. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 21:12
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I don't know their names but we've seen their faces. Film is a visual medium. The Jedi distrust Anakin mostly because of Sheev's actions. He deliberately builds the rift that plays into how events go down. If by some strange twist Windu brings Anakin along maybe Sheev agrees to surrender but only to Anakin (out of fear the religious zealots will murder him) and distrust grows even more? Maybe he picks a fight and Anakin is forced to make the exact same decision he makes? Anakin was already turned by this point, the factors in his decision-making are all in place. He can't let Sheev die, and an arrest won't topple him from his red velvet throne. Even the damage he takes when playing possum plays directly into his play for more power. Without scars who would believe in the Jedi betrayal?
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Mar 2, 2018 21:13
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thrawn527 posted:I'm curious, why do you think Sheev went from feebly saying, "I can't hold him...I'm too weak..." to an extreme explosion of lightning and screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!" in less than a minute? Could it be that maybe he was lying about the first thing he said? Or was that just a really recharging minute, like a Force power nap? The best part is the way he enunciates, "I'm too weak," because he sounds like he's struggling to move some furniture. 
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Mar 2, 2018 21:15
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Hodgepodge posted:The unlimited power line comes after Anakin has slashed off Mace's arm and there is nothing left to oppose the Force Lightning. He is literally saying that he is too weak, followed immediately by how he has unlimited power. The whole thing is theater.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:16
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It's just something we're trusted to understand after watching Palpatine manipulate and get over on people for three entire films. He'd work the situation to his advantage somehow, it's what he always does.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:16
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Palpatine should've just pulled out a blaster and shot him. He never would have seen it coming; it's an established Star Wars fact that hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:18
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zCLs1_LnI
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Mar 2, 2018 21:19
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thrawn527 posted:He is literally saying that he is too weak, followed immediately by how he has unlimited power. The whole thing is theater. He has unlimited power once Anakin has chosen his side. You're leaving out the star of the film making his fateful choice! ...hm, perhaps a place on the Jedi council there is for you yet. quote:The Jedi distrust Anakin mostly because of Sheev's actions. He deliberately builds the rift that plays into how events go down. They didn't even want to take him on as an apprentice, and only Obi-wan's determination to live up to Qui-gon's promise forces their hand. He makes the wedge, but they provide the crack that gives him leverage. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 21:20
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Hodgepodge posted:He has unlimited power once Anakin has chosen his side. You're leaving out the star of the film making his fateful choice! If I'm in a fight and someone has beat me senseless, to the point where I am too weak to even move, someone walking over and punching the person I'm fighting unconscious doesn't suddenly give me the strength to run a mile. He was lying about being beaten and too weak. He had, and I'm quoting him here, "Unlimited power."
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Mar 2, 2018 21:23
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thrawn527 posted:If I'm in a fight and someone has beat me senseless, to the point where I am too weak to even move, someone walking over and punching the person I'm fighting unconscious doesn't suddenly give me the strength to run a mile. It isn't a fistfight. Mace has Palpatine pinned with a lightsaber, and is deflecting the Force Lightning with it. Anakin removes the lightsaber, and Mace's arm. Palpatine's Force Lighting is now hitting Mace rather than Palpatine. He goes from holding back Mace at the cost of being hit with his own Force Lighting to the lightning no longer hitting him and hitting Mace instead. Could... Force Lighting really hurt and cripple whoever it hits? I think the answer is yes. Again, he has unlimited power once Anakin removes the Jedi for him. Not before. Before that, he has to hide from the Jedi.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:28
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I remember reading the novelisation before I saw the movie and getting really excited for Palpatine fighting four Jedi masters at the same time, so I was a bit disappointed that he took out three of them in about 10 seconds.
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Mar 2, 2018 21:31
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I actually checked, and Palpatine gets a bit of a breather while Anakin and Mace debate whether to kill him. Whether he stops the Force Lighting for Anakin's benefit or he really needs the break, it doesn't really change much. He's only holding Mace back at his own expense until he stops, and can only kill him once Anakin intervenes. e: I was kind of missing the really important parallel to the OT; at that moment, Mace loses because he does the exact opposite of what Luke does at the end of RotJ: ignores the Jedi Code and refuses to trust Anakin, instead attempting to strike Palpatine down with his lightsaber. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 21:37
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Really need a Special Edition version of that scene. After Mace Windu flies out the window and Palpatine recovers, Anakin tilts his head quizzically and asks "If you were so weak just a moment before, why did you say that thing about unlimited power? Is it that you are actually so incredibly powerful that you do not need my aid at all and were simply attempting to manipulate my sympathies for future gain, or was it my intervention in the fight that granted you unlimited power?"
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Mar 2, 2018 22:31
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Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Icky the rad? They say he had the power to pretend to lose fights so that people around him thought he was weak, but then zap them with lots of lightning afterwards.
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Mar 2, 2018 22:38
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UNLIIIIIIMITED POWEEEER was pretty clearly ol'Sheev basking in the moment of his ultimate victory and the victory of dark over light, it wasn't him literally referring to his power being unlimited. Like, if he'd upped the lightning while Mace's saber was there, he'd just have blasted himself right in the face.
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Mar 2, 2018 22:42
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I do rather like the interpretation that Sheev genuinely was overwhelmed by Mace, but only because Mace was himself clearly channeling the dark side.
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Mar 2, 2018 22:48
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Zoran posted:I do rather like the interpretation that Sheev genuinely was overwhelmed by Mace, but only because Mace was himself clearly channeling the dark side. Would Luke have defeated the Emperor by getting angrier and trying to attack him? Was Mace stronger with the Dark Side than Sheev?
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Mar 2, 2018 22:50
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His lightsaber is half red. I like the idea that if any Jedi could've beaten Sheev in a swordfight, it was Mace. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether Mace legitimately had Sheev on the ropes or if Sheev was holding back because he was planning to make a pity play the whole time. What is clear is that as soon as Anakin walked in the door, it was no longer a fight, but a show, with each of them trying to convince Anakin to intervene on their behalf; and it was that intervention, not the skill of the fighters, that decided who lived and who died.
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Mar 2, 2018 23:06
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I have to agree that Palpatine is just putting on a show for Anakin, based on three movies where everything he does in the presence of others is an act. Given the immediacy of his recovery, I don't think his force lightning was hurting him at all, beyond removing the non-monster mask.
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Mar 2, 2018 23:10
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