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The answer is that Melechon and PS voters are pretty different, and it would be a completely unworkable electoral coalition. In all likelihood, you would have seen an exodus to the far-left candidates among Melechon supporters and a further exodus to Macron for PS supporters. Macron almost certainly would have still won, and the coalition would break down soon afterward probably taking everyone involved's reputation with it.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:52
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SSNeoman posted:I need to ask, are all of you here just trying to justify your inaction or third-party votes? Because if so, then this topic is a waste of everyone's time. I'm not hearing any good arguments against the ideas in the OP. ITT it's not actually that bleak
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Mar 3, 2018 22:54
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It isn't bleak if you got money.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:02
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Neurolimal posted:I think he's an idiot. I also dont think the guy who wrote-in Lincoln Chafee should be critiquing swathes of leftists in any country on unity and practical voting. Why do you think Melenchon is an idiot? Please articulate your critiques, as the man you anointed as the proper leftist choice that election now works with him and thinks Melenchon has some great ideas. Also sorry you're still butthurt about making a joke vote in Massachusetts of all places. Ardennes posted:The answer is that Melechon and PS voters are pretty different, and it would be a completely unworkable electoral coalition. In all likelihood, you would have seen an exodus to the far-left candidates among Melechon supporters and a further exodus to Macron for PS supporters. We're not talking about "PS voters" anymore as there was no coherent PS vote at that point. It was the remnant who stuck with Hamon who we can safely assume represent a left wing of the former PS. The right wing mostly piled onto Macron already. And yes, France is clearly a center-right country as whole if the electorate is anything to go by and was never going to elect a leftist in the end. But the guy's original complaint was that he had to vote between Le Pen and Macron in the second round, which only arose due to leftist disunity once again. Condiv posted:and that's why most of the left jumped to melenchon fishmech. but you can't honestly expect every single person to jump ship without convincing. maybe you don't have a functioning brain if you can't understand even the most basic aspects of human behavior I'm not expecting every person to jump ship. Just another 2%, it's all it would have taken. VitalSigns posted:Blaming everyone on "the French Left" for the 6% of the electorate who remained loyal to the PS after PS was destroyed when liberals decided they'd rather wreck the party than let someone too far left win is a bit ridiculous fishmech. Diidn't need to convince every last person. Just another 2%. Hell they could have taken a chunk of that out of the other minor left candidates too, it's just that Hamon supporters were already about the closest to Melenchon supporters in what they wanted.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:02
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fishmech posted:I'm not expecting every person to jump ship. Just another 2%, it's all it would have taken. and greater organization would've been needed for that 2%. organization that was not really possible considering the state the PS was in. the worst thing you can fault the left with in that election is that they did not expect to be betrayed, and did not prepare for it.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:04
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Condiv posted:and greater organization would've been needed for that 2%. organization that was not really possible considering the state the PS was in. the worst thing you can fault the left with in that election is that they did not expect to be betrayed, and did not prepare for it. Wow, maybe the French Left shouldn't have been so incompetent and unexpecting of obvious scenarios then. 🤔
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Mar 3, 2018 23:14
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fishmech posted:Wow, maybe the French Left shouldn't have been so incompetent and unexpecting of obvious scenarios then. 🤔 they should've expected it, yes. this isn't the first time centrists have pulled that poo poo, and leftists should've known better than to think centrists would stick to their "lesser of two evils" bullshit when it came to supporting the leftist that got nominated. hopefully the lesson has been learned; centrists are not allies, and were never allies. and yes, i fully expect something similar to happen in 2020 if a leftist is the dem presidential nominee
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Mar 3, 2018 23:21
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fishmech posted:Why do you think Melenchon is an idiot? Please articulate your critiques, as the man you anointed as the proper leftist choice that election now works with him and thinks Melenchon has some great ideas. 1. France has had this identical issue in the past, similar to Canada where multiple competing leftist parties split the vote because the main parties are too restrictive WRT candidacy. Which meant that it was far more important that a leftist capable of changing that, who won the primary in one of said parties, get the votes needed to win and reform the party. Instead Melenchon allowed himself to be exploited by centrist dickwads that weren't happy that their guy didnt win his own primary. 2. Just like there exists no Cult Of Bernie, nobody thinks Hamon was the annointed choice. 3. Just like "Bernie supports Thing, why dont you support Thing?" never working, nobody is going to suddenly 180 their stances to align perfectly with Hamon. For why: see #2 quote:Also sorry you're still butthurt about making a joke vote in Massachusetts of all places. I dont care why you decided to vote for Chafee, only that you did, and as such have no clout in arguing for lesser evilism and/or critiquing others on unity.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:24
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Condiv posted:they should've expected it, yes. this isn't the first time centrists have pulled that poo poo, and leftists should've known better than to think centrists would stick to their "lesser of two evils" bullshit when it came to supporting the leftist that got nominated. hopefully the lesson has been learned; centrists are not allies, and were never allies. So you agree it is, in fact, the fault of the French Left that they couldn't get into the second round of the 2017 presidential election then? Glad we got that settled. Neurolimal posted:1. France has had this identical issue in the past, similar to Canada where multiple competing leftist parties split the vote because the main parties are too restrictive WRT candidacy. Which meant that it was far more important that a leftist capable of changing that, who won the primary in one of said parties, get the votes needed to win and reform the party. Instead Melenchon allowed himself to be exploited by centrist dickwads that weren't happy that their guy didnt win his own primary. Yes I agree leftists tend to idiotically insist on splitterism when it matters most that they don't fall for it. That's their fault. However you're not saying anything that makes Melenchon bad. It's after all clear that the PS cause became hopeless when the PS collapsed, do you think Melenchon personally caused that collapse? You said this: "The left rallied behind an actual leftist, then the party that the leftist won leadership in quietly tanked his chances on all levels." That implies you think Hamon was the proper leftist, and that Melenchon wasn't. Why phrase it that way if you don't mean it that way? So what do you think is bad about Melenchon? Stop comparing him to your neoliberal grandpa candidate and talk about Melenchon himself. What policies do you dislike of his? Why is he not leftist enough for you? Why are you so angered by voting in favor of the metric system in a primary? Alternately, you could explain your grand theory of how Lincoln Chafee secretly controlled the Democratic Party or something. fishmech fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 23:32
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fishmech posted:So you agree it is, in fact, the fault of the French Left that they couldn't get into the second round of the 2017 presidential election then? Glad we got that settled. that's an incredibly obtuse reading of what i said
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Mar 3, 2018 23:35
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fishmech posted:Yes I agree leftists tend to idiotically insist on splitterism when it matters most that they don't fall for it. That's their fault. However you're not saying anything that makes Melenchon bad. It's after all clear that the PS cause became hopeless when the PS collapsed, do you think Melenchon personally caused that collapse? He doesn't need to have caused the collapse, only contribute to the idiotic "those wacky leftists cant unify on anything!" narrative set by disgruntled PS elite and provide cover for their own sabotage. As such he is an idiot. quote:You said this: "The left rallied behind an actual leftist, then the party that the leftist won leadership in quietly tanked his chances on all levels." That implies you think Hamon was the proper leftist, and that Melenchon wasn't. Why phrase it that way if you don't mean it that way? Because the significant goal for the majority of the left was to reclaim PS. Melenchon at best was an opportunist who saw relevance as the PS sabotaged themselves. I dont care about delving into Melenchon because it's a transparent attempt on your behalf to frame the discussion as Melenchon vs. Hamon to drag the thread out and avoid needing to defend your view that the left lost because of infighting, and not because centrists in the party holding the left's focus sabotaged their own chances. quote:Why are you so angered by voting in favor of the metric system in a primary? It was a transparently disingenuous way for you to complain about Bernie without needing to defend Hillary. You werent using him to make a joke, rather to allow yourself room to muck up threads by rallying behind an incompetent unknown to project onto. Just as how you're using Melenchon to avoid uncomfortable discussions about Macron.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:41
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The blame lies squarely on Benoît Hamon's shoulders. Like, literally 100% of the blame. Neurolimal you don't seem to be as informed about the situation as you think you are.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:44
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fishmech posted:Wow, sounds like the left should have united in the first round instead of doing the typical squabbling which allowed Macron and Le Pen be the two choices in the second round. I guess that would have required a bunch of people to have voted for a "lesser evil" instead of their preferred candidate though, boo hoo hoo. You're wrong.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:45
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Neurolimal posted:He doesn't need to have caused the collapse, only contribute to the idiotic "those wacky leftists cant unify on anything!" narrative set by disgruntled PS elite and provide cover for their own sabotage. As such he us an idiot. Except he did very well at building a very strong leftist leadership showing the actual election, and looks that he'll be a seriously important figure in the French left for years to come. Without Melenchon, you'd probably just get an even duller result. Hamon seriously dropped the ball in trying, I suppose. So you're admitting that Melenchon is actually cool and good, and the Left should have united behind him to lock out Le Pen from the second round! Well I've been saying that all this time, you don't have to be so mad about it. Hillary doesn't need defending against the complete neoliberal shill Bernie Sanders, dude. It's really funny, however, to play along like the guy who got less than 20 donors worth noting was actually going to be the next president. Sorry that you're inherently incapable of appreciating humor or logic though. But it's pretty funny that you think it somehow isn't relevant how the Left behaved in the first round, as to why there was no left in the second round. It's basically you pretending that the left is just a passive victim incapable of ever leading or governing, no? Something that needed to be propped up by centrism and who withered as soon as centrists left for the ur-centrist Graduate?
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Mar 3, 2018 23:48
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"The left is stupid for engaging in a circle firing squad and splitting into tiny constituencies instead of uniting behind a single candidate!" *attacks the leftmost candidate as 'not pure enough', votes for a no-hoper and former Republican polling at 1%*
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Mar 3, 2018 23:54
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VitalSigns posted:"The left is stupid for engaging in a circle firing squad and splitting into tiny constituencies instead of uniting behind a single candidate!" The leftmost candidate remaining in the 2016 Democratic Primary was Hillary Rodham Clinton and Linclon Chafee didn't tear the party apart, so uh, good job complaining about alternate Earth? Really it's amazing, pretending Lincoln Chafee had something to do with destroying leftist unity or something. No one from Rhode Island has ever been at risk of doing that, let alone the ol Lincster.
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Mar 4, 2018 00:06
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why is it so controversial to put forth the notion that you have to give voters a reason to vote for you to make them go out to vote for you? Because establishment Democrats like Hillary, Pelosi, and Schumer have an obscene and arrogant sense of entitlement to your votes. All they do is talk about how awful the republicans are without offering any significant alternative to them on policy. Incessantly calling Trump orange Hitler who's under the command of Putin through the Kremlin's palantir 24/7 isn't fooling anybody one paycheck away from homelessness. The current DNC is actively trying to undermine potential 2018 and 2020 candidates who support single-payer, for instance. They're loving worthless, and forget these assholes like Potato Salad who insist on us voting for these bought off hacks who are nothing more than republicans who don't publicly say awful things about gay people.
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Mar 4, 2018 01:06
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viral spiral posted:Because establishment Democrats like Hillary, Pelosi, and Schumer have an obscene and arrogant sense of entitlement to your votes. All they do is talk about how awful the republicans are without offering any significant alternative to them on policy. Incessantly calling Trump orange Hitler who's under the command of Putin through the Kremlin's palantir 24/7 isn't fooling anybody one paycheck away from homelessness. The current DNC is actively trying to undermine potential 2018 and 2020 candidates who support single-payer, for instance. They're loving worthless, and forget these assholes like Potato Salad who insist on us voting for these bought off hacks who are nothing more than republicans who don't publicly say awful things about gay people. some of them actually do now. potato salad still loves them though
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Mar 4, 2018 01:54
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I still don't get how a Melechon/PS alliance would work when in reality they have pretty different views on almost everything. How would foreign policy work (Melechon at one point was talking about shifting to the Bolivarian Alliance)? At a certain point "left" becomes an empty word that doesn't actually describe pretty different political beliefs. (Btw focusing on Russia doesn't just provide a distraction, it also provides justification for more military spending and more robust surveillance programs (which may never actually be used for their intended purpose). Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 02:50
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Potato Salad posted:It isn't rediculous. He's got a perspective that an outsider to activism tends to have, at least at first. Nah, I get where you're coming from but it isn't the sort of final logical destination you seem to think it is. I went through the same process, though in my case with regards to finance instead of political institutions. Just like you, I saw the people I knew, who were totally normal and friendly people, and thought "these people saying terrible things about the finance industry obviously have no idea what they're talking about." But it turns out that the particular form of "evil" these institutions engage in is very banal and doesn't (usually) involve people going "mwahaha I am evil and corrupt!" Usually only a subset are involved in actually making the obviously-bad decisions, and even those decisions are often rationalized in some way that may sound reasonable. When the Sanders-associated individuals were removed from DNC leadership, for example, those responsible likely told themselves that they had some good reason for doing so unrelated to purging the far left. Also, referring to the DNC specifically, the issue is more related to leadership. I'm sure there are others involved with the organization who have good intentions, but the issue is that those at the top are generally either strongly ideologically opposed to the left or are indebted to the more mainstrean/centrist wing of the party (or otherwise benefit from supporting them). edit: Generally speaking, I would strongly recommend not falling into the pattern of reflexively defending those in power due to some of the people who criticize them being dumb or weird. When I was younger I used to reflexively defend powerful business interests solely because I saw some dumb/goofy people who were part of my college's socialist organization and thought "well these people must be wrong." Potato Salad posted:I'm afraid of what happened in France will happen here with respect to the crop of leftists who seemed to be out for their pound of flesh more than actually taking a channel to power. That's why I'm focused on pushing back against hopelessness narratives and conspiracy theories about the DNC literally discarding a popular Keith v Tom had Keith had just a few more votes or less-scared sympathizers. What happened in France could only happen due to their political system, which is different from ours. Also, you're the one who is supporting baseless conspiracy theories - there is no actual evidence that leftists not supporting Democrats is a problem (at least any more than any other subgroup not doing so). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 03:08
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Ardennes posted:I still don't get how a Melechon/PS alliance would work when in reality they have pretty different views on almost everything. How would foreign policy work (Melechon at one point was talking about shifting to the Bolivarian Alliance)? It was the presidential election, and it was the rump left wing of the PS being asked to vote for Melenchon in the first round. This doesn't really touch on what was left of the PS being in long term alliance in the legislature with those who follow Melenchon or anything like that.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:09
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Ytlaya posted:
Yes, in my crazed hatred of the status quo, I'm defending the dnc
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Mar 4, 2018 03:13
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Josef bugman posted:2) Why do you think people aren't allowed to be unhappy or despairing. Why can't people gesture at something and go "shits hosed" even as they try and fix it. "urgh, why can't you be more positive" is just demented. Let people do the work and complain whilst they do it. Or try and persuade others why they should bother being engaged. Don't just go "I am more positive about the future, therefore I am better than you at politics". This is probably one of the things that bothers me most in these discussions. There's a strong tendency of certain people to conflate a negative attitude and attacks/criticism aimed at Democrats with some sort of disengagement* and active desire for Democrats to lose. I would actually argue that attempts to stifle such attitudes are considerably more harmful than the attitudes themselves. It's not like those attitudes just popped up out of nowhere, and you can't silence them just by yelling at people that it's optimal to vote for Democrats or whatever. * This part is particularly bizarre, since if anything it represents the opposite of disengagement if someone is spending a lot of time complaining about politics.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:18
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I'm getting the sense that an old fat socialist that argues in favor of the notion that the dnc can be hijacked as the quickest path to revolution just doesn't fit into any of your desired worldviews
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Mar 4, 2018 03:19
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Ytlaya posted:This is probably one of the things that bothers me most in these discussions. There's a strong tendency of certain people to conflate a negative attitude and attacks/criticism aimed at Democrats with some sort of disengagement* and active desire for Democrats to lose. I would actually argue that attempts to stifle such attitudes are considerably more harmful than the attitudes themselves. It's not like those attitudes just popped up out of nowhere, and you can't silence them just by yelling at people that it's optimal to vote for Democrats or whatever. Complaining about politics isn't activism. E I'm unpacking your post more. "Let us complain!" on the specific subject of 2evils voting? Silencing criticisms? This is a thread about lesser of two evils posting and you're massively overapplying post subjects. I've not told anyone to silence their criticism. At worst, I've cautioned shark avatar poster against proliferation of the false narrative that the dnc is totally beyond positive influence. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 03:20
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Potato Salad posted:Complaining about politics isn't activism. There's nothing wrong with it, either. Some people have busy lives, or some other reason why they can't spend much time with political volunteering*. I just pointed out that those people are still considerably more engaged politically simply by virtue of paying attention to things enough to complain in the first place. The main point I'm trying to make is that your irritation here is completely irrational. There is no justifiable reason to believe that the thing you're describing is a problem. If anything, increased negative sentiment is the main reason the party has shifted somewhat to the left. A general perception that people are deeply dissatisfied and unhappy with the status quo is important and actually matters. At the very least it certainly doesn't hurt anything. *To be honest, if you gave peoples' political opinions more importance relative to how much activism they do, you'd find that the results would be extremely classist and disproportionately involve people who are at least comfortably middle class. It's also just plain absurd and elitist to say that peoples' feelings and opinions matter less if they don't spend time involved with political activism. Potato Salad posted:E I'm unpacking your post more. "Let us complain!" on the specific subject of 2evils voting? Silencing criticisms? Not sure what you mean here. My point is that the sort of push-back against negative sentiment (like what you're doing in this thread) is at least as likely to have a harmful impact as the negative sentiment itself, and at the very least it's definitely guaranteed to not accomplish anything. Josef bugman posted:2) Prove it. I mean, seriously you don't see how pointing at bad-dems and going "gently caress this person" may actually improve things? Would you vote for a dem even if they were basically blue republicans? Because that is how some people feel about some candidates and they have every right to. I think that a lot of liberals don't realize that an election like 2016's is similar to choosing between Trump and John McCain for someone on the far left. They have trouble perceiving the Democratic candidate as anything other than "not ideal, but still good." To be fair, I don't think this is true of Potato Salad. For reasons that are hard to explain, I don't consider them to be quite the same as a lot of the "anti-leftist" liberal posters on these forums. It seems like their irritation is more personal and isn't directed at "the radical left" as a whole so much as individual leftists. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 03:26
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Let's get specific about that "negative sentiment" you're referring to. "Negative sentiment" as in Centrism is Bad and right wing dems can suck perspiration off my fat clitoris: hell yeah "Negative sentiment" as in primaries are rigged forever, a populist chair can't happen as the dnc will literally discard the stakeholder vote, running as a socialist/commie dem is not helpful... These ideas are false, and they're harmful because they discredit good avenues for progress. We don't need Alex Jones of the Left conspiracy theories loving things up by encouraging either cynical disengagement or engagement that's the mirror equivalent of boomers yelling at clouds Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 03:33
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Potato Salad posted:Let's get specific about that "negative sentiment" you're referring to. I don't think most leftists on these forums believe the primary was rigged in the sense of "literally changing votes" or something, but it's actually true that Clinton had a large and unethical advantage (both due to the DNC being in her debt and early reporting of superdelegates skewing perception of the race). While it's unlikely Sanders would have won even if this weren't the case, it's still an actual problem, and the fact that some people think vote tallies were changed to make Clinton win (or whatever) doesn't change that. Also, the issue isn't that the vote will be discarded, but more that the mainstream center/center-left has a lot of institutional advantages. I don't think it's impossible for better people to reach positions of power in the DNC, but we've already seen at least two things happen that support the more cynical view of people in this thread (namely the purging of Sanders supporting from DNC leadership and Perez's insertion as as a candidate in response to Ellison).
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Mar 4, 2018 03:37
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Potato Salad posted:"Negative sentiment" as in Centrism is Bad and right wing dems can suck perspiration off my fat clitoris: hell yeah I'm going to anticipate a Viral/Vital Spiral/Sign response of "then why u vote dem neway" with a massive middle finger asking Vital to post yet again why he eventually voted for Clinton: there are present and horrifying consequences to ceding power to the right, per the OP's and thread's point. The Dems aren't owed our vote, but so too are vulnerable communities and the poor nit deserving of losing what little protection the status quo dems offer against American Evangelical Conservatism.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:51
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Look at this goon quoting himself instead of engaging with every poster who has already dismantled his incredibly lovely arguments over the last 10 pages.
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Mar 4, 2018 04:08
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Hey look, the "Summon ViralSpiral" pentagram on my floor worked. I'll compost the printouts of broken immigrant families now.
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Mar 4, 2018 04:17
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you mean the one the dems gleefully consigned to the pyre without even bothering to put up a fight, yes
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Mar 4, 2018 08:00
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remember, kids, vote for democrats, on behalf of the dreamers! *obligation runs in precisely one direction, democrats will still hurl brown people into the meat grinder in the name of convenience, anyone who complains about this is just being Insufficiently Realist
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Mar 4, 2018 08:03
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Potato Salad posted:Hey look, the "Summon ViralSpiral" pentagram on my floor worked. Mate I would really like to hear your response to Ytlaya here, they are being both extraordinarily nice and super clear with their questioning and framing of issues and it seems as if your just getting cross at them for doing that. I think going "vote Dem if it seems like the right thing to do" is a good idea. I don't think "go blue team" is. I mean I'd have difficulty voting for a lot of the MP's that are on Labours side in the general election over here and they have significantly less wiggle room to gently caress about.
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Mar 4, 2018 09:41
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Potato Salad posted:Hey look, the "Summon ViralSpiral" pentagram on my floor worked. If only the Democrats had had an opportunity post 11/9 to do something about this If only
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Mar 4, 2018 10:17
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Also holding a gun to the head of the less fortunate is exactly how Democrats manage to keep winning, because if you don't vote for them, you're running a risk of bad thing happening. Never mind that even if they win the bad poo poo is going to happen just more slowly, though, you wouldn't want to vote against *checks list* DACA* *democratsareundernoobligationtosupportdacaseewebsitefordetailstermsandconditionsmayapplie
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Mar 4, 2018 10:20
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Potato Salad if the Democratic party doesn't rig the primaries in favor of the shuffling corpse of Vladimir Lenin I'm voting for Donald Trump 50 times, once in every state.
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Mar 4, 2018 10:28
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Potato Salad posted:I'm getting the sense that an old fat socialist that argues in favor of the notion that the dnc can be hijacked as the quickest path to revolution just doesn't fit into any of your desired worldviews The literal reason for why hijacking the DNC is even a possibility is because people don't act like you demand they should lol
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Mar 4, 2018 10:46
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Ytlaya posted:I don't think most leftists on these forums believe the primary was rigged in the sense of "literally changing votes" or something,
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Mar 4, 2018 12:17
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Josef bugman posted:Mate I would really like to hear your response to Ytlaya here, they are being both extraordinarily nice and super clear with their questioning and framing of issues and it seems as if your just getting cross at them for doing that. I haven't responded to Yalta because we're largely in agreement; she's somehow reading into my posts that I'm saying stuff that I'm not. Ylata is always mega polite, but s/he has an enumerated set of profiles s/he wants to stuff you into and thus repeatedly fails to accept that you agree on 80% of the content of the otherwise polite effortposts. Note from a few pages back the assumption that I must care more about social problems than economic problems. Ylata and I have had that fist fight before, where it's assumed any pushback on a leftist poster means you're a centrist. Note above that I'm in broad agreement with her, but because I push back on conspiratorial thinking as a valid factor in Two Evils voting decisions, the Ylata post is offering "I agreed with x, however I'm disagreeing about Y" sentences where Y is a centrist position I haven't offered or defended. Josef bugman posted:I think going "vote Dem if it seems like the right thing to do" is a good idea. I don't think "go blue team" is. I mean I'd have difficulty voting for a lot of the MP's that are on Labours side in the general election over here and they have significantly less wiggle room to gently caress about. So, something I've noticed is that VitalSigns posts a lot in here despite having voted Clinton per the trolley problem, and he's done so because he has real, personal threats to his well being otherwise. That's basically the premise of the thread, acknowledged. Wew lads. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 12:18
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