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Imho just make torment do % of health as damage which then gets to be diminished by your MR Basing survival of the highest threat attack on RNG doesn't sound ideal to me.
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Mar 6, 2018 13:34
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Let's also remove Damnation and ensure there are zero dangerous things in extended. Torment seems fine to me because it creates dangerous situations without one-shotting characters with less HP. I much prefer it to fixed damage alternatives or paralysis that would just one-shot a bunch of characters.
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Mar 6, 2018 13:47
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I know it feels big when Torment from a smite on the edge of vision reduces your current hp by half in a single turn. It's the perception of the attack rather than the impact. Flaying is similar but there's a recourse: kill the flaying ghost to return your health. The impact is about the same but the perception isn't nearly as bad because you can fix it without dipping into consumables. So Torment could be changed to Soul Flay and have the attack split off part of your soul as an actual object that can be picked up in your line of sight, lasting long enough that tactically it can be picked up in a fight but will dissipate if you don't do it immediately after the engagement. And either the item on pick up increases HP immediately or has a regen effect (dependent on the loss) that stays until the lost health is regained. Gives the player recourse and decision making rather than "well, guess I'm waiting around 30-40 turns after this fight is complete in Hell/Pan."
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Mar 6, 2018 14:46
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mr-check torment would give characters another option for dealing with it beyond what, tso and kiku? did we return the crown of torment? imo the more viable ways to approach extended the better
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Mar 6, 2018 14:48
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The trouble with MR affecting torment (beyond what rN does) is that it turns torment into yet another resistible Thing, which a high level character with good artifact gear can now mitigate. The entire POINT of torment and damnation is that they're totally unstoppable* damage tools for monsters that can threaten the most pimped out player characters who are otherwise headbutting pan lords for comedy's sake. Torment and damnation are crutches that hold up extended, and to touch them would necessitate a MASSIVE overhaul of what&how extended is. Tomb's one way hatches would only be the begginning, it'd have to be closer to "Ziggurats which dump mutagenic clouds on you". Imo leave torment/damnation alone until the very last change of a massive extended overhaul . *yea yea scrolls of fog
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Mar 6, 2018 15:13
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the current methods in the game for mitigating torment don't actually make it a non-threat and i'm not sure how giving mr a piece of that pie would somehow unavoidably tip it over into the bin of outgrown mechanics
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Mar 6, 2018 15:31
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Honestly just delete extended and spend dev time on the good part of the game.
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Mar 6, 2018 16:35
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Honestly just delete extended and spend dev time on the good part of the game. 
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Mar 6, 2018 17:19
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Actually, dont delete anything and just add stuff back in imo :P
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Mar 6, 2018 17:19
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heard u like girls posted:Actually, dont delete anything and just add stuff back in imo :P  I think a more tightly focused game would be more fun and he'll have much more room to add stuff in places where people will see it.
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Mar 6, 2018 17:25
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Bring back lava orcs
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Mar 6, 2018 17:27
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Honestly just delete extended and spend dev time on the good part of the game. But I enjoy extended. Or I did before the main branch started to trim tools to deal with it. It's me, I'm the crazy guy who like pan and the final levels of hell but that's because the best part of the game to me is fighting the hell/pan lords. Probably why o smash my head against early uniques instead of smartly walking away.
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Mar 6, 2018 17:36
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Did we ever really discuss Tolly's hell weather idea?
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Mar 6, 2018 17:55
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Hmm I think it time to submit a PR that increases the chance of a Wiz Lab.
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Mar 6, 2018 18:04
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Cerepol posted:Hmm I think it time to submit a PR that
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Mar 6, 2018 18:08
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World Famous W posted:What's the good part? Because early dungeon till about lair rune branches is boring poo poo o seen thousand times before. I guess you could skip all that if you just hit tab and don't care about dying in early floors. That will sometimes work but I can't say I recommend it.
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Mar 6, 2018 18:35
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I literally tab (or spell spam) early dungeon because I don't care until I get some sort-of intresting gear/spells. It gets tense when I am fighting in the end of a zig and have a good number of hours and a powerful hero on the line. Before than it is just starting class whatever with one or two pieces of middling gear.
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Mar 6, 2018 18:54
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My favorite crawl things are finding ridiculous randarts and breaking into wizlabs, so extended should consist entirely of 9 wizlabs with nothing but randarts and runes as rewards Honestly though, pan and hell both take forever for either little risk or bullshit garbage, so cut each hell branch to 1 giant floor each, randomize whether you get hell or pan rune floors from the vestibule, replace the non-themed pan rune with one in some new 3-floor malmutate branch (and restrict malmutate to enemies there+the big balls of fire), and make it possible to jump in pan forever as an optional thing with no rune reward So you end up with tomb as torment rune, malmute land as malmutate rune, 4 runes from any combination of hell or the unique pan lords, and pan as a place to endlessly grind if you’re feeling like it but with no explicit reward Alternatively, make a zig rune and delete the rest of extended
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Mar 6, 2018 19:06
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Hell should have three branches with 6 levels each.
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Mar 6, 2018 19:21
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Hell should be alternate extended where you grab the orb and then try and make it to the bottom of however many levels to dunk on the devil with it.
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Mar 6, 2018 19:27
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World Famous W posted:I literally tab (or spell spam) early dungeon because I don't care until I get some sort-of intresting gear/spells. It gets tense when I am fighting in the end of a zig and have a good number of hours and a powerful hero on the line. Before than it is just starting class whatever with one or two pieces of middling gear. The beginning of the game is just as tense and interesting and difficult if you care about dying and you don't have to go through a million levels of lair to even get a chance at the fun part. I think it's the best part of crawl and has been forever.
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Mar 6, 2018 19:48
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Because until the rng gives me something to care for I can tab storm till it does. I obvious like the game, been playing since ogre mages were a race. And others like early game as is so I'll leave it to them. I just look forward to extended more than others is all.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:19
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feature request: increase all displayed aptitudes by 1 without actually changing the leveling rate
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Mar 6, 2018 20:35
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Okay, last set of design discussion topics: Virulence player spell: Nubletcrawler was kind enough to contribute a pull request which implements this. quote:Adding virulence spell to player books (Envenomations, Alchemy) Does this design sound good, or should it be implemented differently? If I don't see anything more than minor changes, I'll just pass the changes along and merge (since player Virulence was a 'Yes' from the previous survey). Perma buffs from Hellcrawl: Which spells should receive the permabuffs treatment (which is reserving a portion of your max MP based on spell cost and spell power to permanently sustain)? Likely requested categories will probably be transmutation forms and buffs that just affect the player and do nothing else (some like the new Blades of Disaster spell might not work well as a permabuffs). Are there any specific spells/categories that should be added? Nemelex rework/unwork
Once again, I'll give it about a week for discussion. After that I'll put together a design poll for everything discussed so far. Finally there will be the FR/PR/mainline major commit poll, then the next dev cycle! Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 20:39
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Oh god yes add that virulence spell. Sounds good as is, don't mind it not being in starting book.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:43
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The problem with torment is there's no way to mitigate it at a tactical level. How you're going to deal with it is entirely a strategic chose and represents a small subset of character builds (firestormers, undead/gargoyle, DDoor/lichform, kiku, and TSO/mahk).Sage Grimm posted:I know it feels big when Torment from a smite on the edge of vision reduces your current hp by half in a single turn. It's the perception of the attack rather than the impact. Flaying is similar but there's a recourse: kill the flaying ghost to return your health. The impact is about the same but the perception isn't nearly as bad because you can fix it without dipping into consumables. This seems like a good direction to examine. It also deals with how much of extended is waiting for your HP to fill back up after getting hit with torment once.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:13
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Even just making Transfig spells permabuffs would be a huge QoL improvement, since there's almost no reason for a character focused on it to ever not have them on. Other good ones would be things like Regen, Ozocobu's, maybe Shroud of Golubria. Nothing that summons except maybe Battlesphere.
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Mar 6, 2018 23:09
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Microcline posted:The problem with torment is there's no way to mitigate it at a tactical level. How you're going to deal with it is entirely a strategic chose and represents a small subset of character builds (firestormers, undead/gargoyle, DDoor/lichform, kiku, and TSO/mahk). I mean if the only problem with Torment is the lack of tactical counterplay, then what if: Torment but bolt/beam/fireball/melee/aura form (The Soul Flay idea is pretty cool too BTW) Also while I'm thinking about it, if Torment becomes something that can be tactically countered, then probably strategic counters to Torment can be nerfed or removed (like how nothing lets you avoid being hurt by Damnation). Now the fun is mandatory! Patashu fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 23:43
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is virulence all monsters in los or a specific target? with regard to permabuffs, some disorganized thoughts: permabuff regen sounds a little too wild honestly, and ozocubu's slows you now iirc so thatd probably want to be rereworked shroud should be a permabuff that can regenerate itself, idk, a dozen turns after popping. spectral weapon could probably work the same way. imo confusing touch should be a self-regenerating charms/hexes spell and be higher level/less fiddly stuff i honestly don't know very well: ring of flames is mostly a fire magic spellpower buff right? how powerful are the clouds it produces? i've never used leda's liquefaction so i don't know if it's permabuff material or not. is invisibility too strong to be a permabuff? there's a whole conversation that could be had there about how starkly binary its usefulness is. darkness seems like itd be fine as a permabuff though, it doesn't trivialize an entire subset of monsters. cigotuvi's embrace as a permabuff sounds fun as hell and it comes w the downside of eating all your corpses, so im fine with that. it would synergize pretty well with a death channel permabuff. too well? not sure. excruciating wounds as a permabuff kind of removes the need to ask kiku for a pain weapon but honestly im ok with that. weird opinion: call canine familiar should be a permabuff. maybe spellforged servitor? probably not aura of abjuration though, too situational for the cost. e: Patashu posted:I mean if the only problem with Torment is the lack of tactical counterplay, then what if: Torment but bolt/beam/fireball/melee/aura form having a variety of torment variants in different forms sounds super interesting. though tormentbolt specifically seems like itd be pretty indistinguishable from torment as it currently works Tollymain fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 00:14
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Many (all?) of those spells have solutions in hellcrawl already
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Mar 7, 2018 00:23
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in my defense i didnt say i know what im talking about :v i've not played hellcrawl, how does it handle these spells?
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Mar 7, 2018 00:27
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cheetah7071 posted:Many (all?) of those spells have solutions in hellcrawl already Yes, but copying and pasting everything over from hellcrawl isn't a good idea, as you could just go play hellscrawl instead.
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Mar 7, 2018 00:30
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Tollymain posted:is virulence all monsters in los or a specific target? Serephina posted:Yes, but copying and pasting everything over from hellcrawl isn't a good idea, as you could just go play hellscrawl instead. Patashu fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 00:41
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Microcline posted:The problem with torment is there's no way to mitigate it at a tactical level. How you're going to deal with it is entirely a strategic chose and represents a small subset of character builds (firestormers, undead/gargoyle, DDoor/lichform, kiku, and TSO/mahk).
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Mar 7, 2018 00:57
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Tollymain posted:in my defense i didnt say i know what im talking about :v Regen scales hp-per-turn with spellpower instead of scaling duration. Ozo's just loses the ponderous. Only reason the dev team added it was to discourage constantly recasting it to keep it up forever as a "permabuff" in vanilla crawl, and only because doing that would be tedious. (If permabuffs get implemented I'd like to see stoneskin and phaseshift back in too) Spectral weapon is a weird one. It's a permabuff that causes the weapon to get summoned whenev you attack but disappear when you're out of combat for a bit, plus some kinda respawn timer for if it actually gets killed by enemies. Another notable change is permabuff-Haste getting bumped up to level 9 and losing its contam entirely. e: Hellcrawl also modifies the reserved MP based on your spell success chance, and updates this value in real time as you change buffs or equip new gear. A level 9 spell with 30% failure/70% success costs 9 / (0.7^2) = 18 MP to sustain as a permabuff. If you were to put on a ring of wizardry your max MP would increase as the fail rate decreases, and if you were to put on a set of plate armor that dramatically increases the fail rates your max MP would decrease. Dropping below 0 max MP forcibly turns your permabuffs off, so you can't buff up while naked and then change into your armor afterwards. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 01:20
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Hey did we make Lair 8 levels yet because we should do that. Cutting down on good experience in the midgame to make it harder to get hybrids off the ground was lovely IMO.
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Mar 7, 2018 01:40
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Another notable change is permabuff-Haste getting bumped up to level 9 and losing its contam entirely.
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Mar 7, 2018 01:56
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Getting charms high enough to cast a level 9 spell is a real cost in hellcrawl because of reduced exp in general. It doesn't have to come back even if permabuffs come into gooncrawl
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Mar 7, 2018 01:59
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:(If permabuffs get implemented I'd like to see stoneskin and phaseshift back in too) Phase Shift is already back 
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Mar 7, 2018 02:09
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Arivia posted:Hey did we make Lair 8 levels yet because we should do that. Cutting down on good experience in the midgame to make it harder to get hybrids off the ground was lovely IMO. i thought they compensated for the reduction in lair experience in some way. did they not?
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Mar 7, 2018 02:10
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