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Fututor Magnus posted:how do you sift through all that junk, and is there anything you can say about the process that can help out applicants, like how they can make their applications stand out. Much to the chagrin of some posters here, my company requires a cover letter, actually reads it and considers it as a part of the application.
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Mar 7, 2018 14:23
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PokeJoe posted:definitely take cs50x before you drop cash on a boot camp I looked into this, and though it says "entry level", how much CS/programming knowledge is required to start this? Is it something I can jump into blind, or should I continue to self-learn through CodeAcadamy (or a similar course) for a few weeks/months first?
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Mar 7, 2018 14:34
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Fututor Magnus posted:but again, i didn't claim there was no average IQ differences as discovered by a few hereditarian studies, whether "famous" or not. in fact, you're talking past my point, which was that IQ is not an actual measure of intelligence, and that "intelligence" as a metric of human cognitive ability is scientifically elusive, and we've found no biological correlates proving that intelligence is hereditary or even biologically determined. This is flat-out wrong, and if you don't believe that: A) IQ is a decent predictor of success in performance at work/college, particularly in technical/scientific fields B) IQ is highly determined by genetic factors then you're simply wishing your view of how the world should be over how it actually is, as best we can determine scientifically.
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Mar 7, 2018 15:09
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Wikipedia's article on the g factor is a pretty good explanation of what we know about general intelligence. The tl;dr is that it's real, it's highly heritable, and it matters.
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Mar 7, 2018 16:01
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B-Nasty posted:This is flat-out wrong, and if you don't believe that: Neither of those is evidence that IQ is a measure of intelligence. I'll grant there might be some correlation, if we ever figure out how to objectively measure intelligence, but we haven't.
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Mar 7, 2018 16:04
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B-Nasty posted:This is flat-out wrong, and if you don't believe that: IQ works fairly well as a proxy for "educated white male" so yeah, that checks both your boxes.
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Mar 7, 2018 17:48
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I sent out about 100 applications in the span of 3 weeks and got this job, and I had a few other interviews that were progressing (at least 2 that looked very promising). I submitted maybe about 5 or 6 applications through the traditional job portals/templates/etc. Generally, I would find an open job posting, search on linkedin for an internal recruiter at that company that might be connected with that job opening, and sent them an e-mail. I got a LOT of leverage out of that technique, which was super simple, and I think much more likely to be successful than just the traditional approach of submitting a pdf on some site somewhere. It's a little on the spammier side of things, but it worked for me. I can go into detail/share some links if people are curious about the process. Also, RCarr posted:I looked into this, and though it says "entry level", how much CS/programming knowledge is required to start this? Is it something I can jump into blind, or should I continue to self-learn through CodeAcadamy (or a similar course) for a few weeks/months first? Just jump straight into CS50, it starts from the absolute ground level and builds up, and will teach you things that are a million times more useful than the basic syntax from Codecademy. If it helps, the first assignment in the class involves using Scratch, which doesn't even require you to write actual code.
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Mar 7, 2018 18:21
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The Dark Wind posted:Just jump straight into CS50, it starts from the absolute ground level and builds up, and will teach you things that are a million times more useful than the basic syntax from Codecademy. If it helps, the first assignment in the class involves using Scratch, which doesn't even require you to write actual code. Great! I’ll do that, thank you. 
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Mar 7, 2018 18:24
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The Dark Wind posted:I sent out about 100 applications in the span of 3 weeks and got this job, and I had a few other interviews that were progressing (at least 2 that looked very promising). I submitted maybe about 5 or 6 applications through the traditional job portals/templates/etc. Generally, I would find an open job posting, search on linkedin for an internal recruiter at that company that might be connected with that job opening, and sent them an e-mail. I got a LOT of leverage out of that technique, which was super simple, and I think much more likely to be successful than just the traditional approach of submitting a pdf on some site somewhere. It's a little on the spammier side of things, but it worked for me. I can go into detail/share some links if people are curious about the process. I’m very curious about this approach. People didn’t get mad? Were you sending it to their actual work email or LinkedIn? Did you use your cover letter in the actual email?
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Mar 7, 2018 19:09
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Shirec posted:I’m very curious about this approach. People didn’t get mad? Were you sending it to their actual work email or LinkedIn? Did you use your cover letter in the actual email? Given the amount of recruiting (and sales, lately) spam on LinkedIn, cold-messaging seems like something you just have to accept on that platform.
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Mar 7, 2018 20:09
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Shirec posted:I’m very curious about this approach. People didn’t get mad? Were you sending it to their actual work email or LinkedIn? Did you use your cover letter in the actual email? People who get paid more if you get hired don't generally get mad about you contacting them about getting hired.
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Mar 7, 2018 20:23
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The things you say and the way you say them make you sound like a total rear end in a top hat fyi
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Mar 7, 2018 20:27
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For some hiring managers, it's a positive signal. You cared about the position enough to do some research, find their name and email, and send something to them directly. I don't see why they'd be mad about that, since you're helping them do their job.
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Mar 7, 2018 20:27
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baquerd posted:People who get paid more if you get hired don't generally get mad about you contacting them about getting hired. Internal recruiters get paid for hiring? I kind of figured that wasn’t a thing if I reach out to Company X recruiter that works for Company X.
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Mar 7, 2018 20:46
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I don't know if internal recruiters actually get paid per candidate, but bringing people in definitely works out in their favor.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:16
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ultrafilter posted:I don't know if internal recruiters actually get paid per candidate, but bringing people in definitely works out in their favor. Going to vary by company, but I don't know why you would have internal recruiters without any quotas, commissions, or some other means of evaluating whether they are efficiently bringing in the right people to the company. rt4 posted:The things you say and the way you say them make you sound like a total rear end in a top hat fyi What about me saying people like to get paid more was assholey?
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Mar 7, 2018 21:23
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Shirec posted:I’m very curious about this approach. People didn’t get mad? Were you sending it to their actual work email or LinkedIn? Did you use your cover letter in the actual email? I basically followed this exact approach (this was my bootcamp): http://www.vikingcodeschool.com/posts/greg-kamradt-senior-growth-analyst-hacking-the-job-search-process It was pretty simple/straightforward, and that link has some useful spreadsheet templates to help set up the process. Not a single person ever got upset, and usually only one of four things ever happened: 1. They ignored my email (most common). 2. They replied thanking me for the message and saying they were looking for folks with more experience. Some would tell me to re-apply sometime (read: years) down the road. 3. They would reply and tell me to apply through their site. I would do that, then follow up with them and let them know I applied, and this almost always led to an interview. 4. They would look to schedule a phone interview with me. The first three or four emails are a little scary to send out, but by the end it's second nature. For smaller companies/startups sometimes I would reach out to the CTO directly, and I had a surprisingly high number of replies when I tried this. I never sent any cover letters, just a resume. The email acted as a cover letter, more or less. I would email them directly at their work email. I used Hubspot (free service) along with gmail to create email templates and track email opens. There are various chrome extensions out there that help you find someone's work email when you're looking at their LinkedIn page. When I started my job search, I decided I would commit to doing this process for 4 weeks wholeheartedly. If it wasn't working out, I was planning to switch gears and try a few different things for month 2, then do the same every 4 weeks until I found a strategy that worked. By week 3 (when I landed my current gig) I had some ideas on things in this strategy that I could have tweaked, but ultimately it was a successful plan. Edit: If you want a slightly different approach (requires more work but you'll probably get a higher amount of replies), I found Austin Belcak's content to be overall pretty good, he definitely has some unique ways of looking at the job search that'll help give you ideas. He had an article that went somewhat viral last year, can't find it, but it's pretty comprehensive and worth reading. reversefungi fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 21:38
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Wow. that is likely more thought and work into finding one job than I gave it across my entire career so far. 
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Mar 7, 2018 21:54
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Xarn posted:Wow. that is likely more thought and work into finding one job than I gave it across my entire career so far. 
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Mar 7, 2018 21:56
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Xarn posted:Wow. that is likely more thought and work into finding one job than I gave it across my entire career so far. I'm not nearly clever enough to come up with any of this stuff, I'm lucky that my bootcamp and the people in it exposed me to all these strategies/ideas, otherwise I'd probably still be chucking applications into portals today. Also the good thing is that it really isn't a lot of work, in fact when all is said and done it's probably less work than doing the typical application process. Clicking through those job portal sites where I have to enter the exact same information that is already in my resume just destroys my soul, and takes way longer than just finding an opening, finding someone at the company's email, and sending them a message built off a template. reversefungi fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 22:13
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rt4 posted:The things you say and the way you say them make you sound like a total rear end in a top hat fyi drat this came out of nowhere.
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Mar 7, 2018 22:17
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Yooooooooo this is about 30 minutes of really real poo poo and if you're a guy in charge of someone whos new then you probably need to watch it and if you're new then you're going to feel a lot of this is familiar and you're not alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6G8f9pZZRM
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Mar 7, 2018 22:51
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Im coming up on my first year anniversary of working full time as a web developer and I couldn't be happier had to post somewhere. I had a degree but honestly a crapshoot of meagre experience before doing a bootcamp and the job search was still brutal but I am here. Working remotely, too. I empathize greatly for anyone trying their hand at web development, Im a much humbler person now thats for sure. Murrah fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 23:10
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The Dark Wind posted:Clicking through those job portal sites where I have to enter the exact same information that is already in my resume just destroys my soul, and takes way longer than just finding an opening, finding someone at the company's email, and sending them a message built off a template.  I never did that either, networking and some luck are helluva thing.
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Mar 7, 2018 23:18
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I dunno how it is in the US but: LinkedIn. Unironically. LinkedIn.
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Mar 7, 2018 23:30
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Got rejected for that job I had the phone screen with. Not much to say beyond feeling pretty awful at the moment.
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Mar 7, 2018 23:44
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Shirec posted:Got rejected for that job I had the phone screen with. Not much to say beyond feeling pretty awful at the moment. I really can't give you any pointers at all. By all rights I probably shouldn't have gotten the job that I did get but they were just absolutely desperate for someone and they were having trouble recruiting locally. I don't know what you're applying for either so I don't know how easy it is to make work presentable to a potential employer. What I can tell you is that the people who interviewed you probably didn't mind that you were a Jr (if you were a Jr) and that it was probably a management decision. I attended my first executive brief with my company 2 weeks ago and literally every single senior Dev was like 'WE. NEED. TO. TAKE. ON. BOARD. JR. DEVELOPERS.' and every time they said it the management just groaned and said 'But they're uselesssssss and we have to pay themmmmmm and be patient with themmmmmm just find experienced devvvvsssssss.' despite being told repeatedly that experienced Devs are hard to come by and you can make a Jr dev into an experienced dev in like 6 loving months in a pressure cooker environment if they have the right aptitude. Just stick with it. You'll find something. Plus every interview you gently caress up is a lesson learned about what to lie about in your next interview.
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Mar 8, 2018 00:00
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The first few phone interviews I did on my recent job search went pretty awful, and I was feeling pretty let down at first but once I got into the swing of things I started knocking each and every one out and got a bunch of onsites. If you haven't tried one of those interview prep services maybe give that a try. My friend recommended refdash and it was nice to get some tips on what I could improve on.
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Mar 8, 2018 00:17
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ultrafilter posted:Wikipedia's article on the g factor is a pretty good explanation of what we know about general intelligence. The tl;dr is that it's real, it's highly heritable, and it matters. Why are we arguing about this... we all know software engineering is below Physics and Math in terms of career IQ thresholds  In all seriousness, I do think that Google likes to hire phds, but most companies don't care about how well you solve random puzzles that only ten people in the world care about. The only threshold for getting a software job is to be able to pass the interview (of which there are many well structured resources to prepare with) and to have a good job search plan to get interviews. To be a good engineer once you're hired, solve problems that the business cares about. None of these require genius level intellect. I'd argue that pure genius usually doesn't matter in this world. You can get by being in the top 25% - it's just about being smarter than the competition.
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Mar 8, 2018 02:09
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Fututor Magnus posted:but again, i didn't claim there was no average IQ differences as discovered by a few hereditarian studies, whether "famous" or not. in fact, you're talking past my point, which was that IQ is not an actual measure of intelligence, and that "intelligence" as a metric of human cognitive ability is scientifically elusive, and we've found no biological correlates proving that intelligence is hereditary or even biologically determined. poo poo, I was so eager to jump in to say how wrong this is and then everyone beat me to the punch. (IQ is predictive and heritable and the fact that this is well studied and researched is easily found out...which means you're just spouting what you want to be true or cargo culting someone else who said things you like the sound of)
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Mar 8, 2018 02:14
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shocked to find programmers believing in a simplistic account of intelligence that also happens to be flattering to them
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Mar 8, 2018 02:16
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I wish I were so successful in life and career that I could have enough free time to hijack a thread about getting a job for the industry in which I work to partake in dick measuring contests.
Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 02:23
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Thermopyle posted:poo poo, I was so eager to jump in to say how wrong this is and then everyone beat me to the punch. Mniot posted:IQ works fairly well as a proxy for "educated white male" so yeah, that checks both your boxes.
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Mar 8, 2018 02:25
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Actually, that's not exactly true, but this isn't the thread to discuss it.
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Mar 8, 2018 02:26
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I'm proficient with CSS/JavaScript/C++/Swift/Obj-C, but I don't have much experience with Android/Java/Kotlin. Would it be feasible for me to try to get a mobile developer job which asks for both iOS and Android experience based on my iOS experience, and then learn Android on the job? Or has that time passed and there are enough people who know both that I wouldn't have a shot (and therefore I'd better learn Android on my own time)?
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Mar 8, 2018 02:26
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B-Nasty posted:This is flat-out wrong, and if you don't believe that: good, you've swallowed all the hereditarian bullshit without actually researching it, you'd probably swallow my cum without thinking, too. but if you're repeating scientific racist claims here, give me an example of just one gene with an environment-dependent effect on IQ. i'm sure you'll have more success doing so than quantitative geneticists have "predictor of success" you could perhaps try to prove that the causation goes that way, and not that living in a privileged environment with good educational institutions and no lead etc. determines success in academic and financial terms. you don't know how the world is, you're just a dumbass scientific racist, go suck galton's skeletonized dick. or rant more about how poor people are genetically dumb (without evidence) and thus they deserve being poor. Thermopyle posted:poo poo, I was so eager to jump in to say how wrong this is and then everyone beat me to the punch. you don't know what "heritability" is, it doesn't mean "genetic". and besides, heritability studies like twin studies are flawed, anyway. but this thread is a good proof of the fact that programmers loving love scientific racism. also, lmao. you liked what the bell curve said so you adopted it's scientific racist and classist eugenicist ideology outright. there's no more cargo cult in science than scientific racism and intelligence research. ultrafilter posted:Wikipedia's article on the g factor is a pretty good explanation of what we know about general intelligence. The tl;dr is that it's real, it's highly heritable, and it matters. g is a statistical artifact. but your post is another proof that dumbass hereditarians don't know what heritability loving means. behaviour genetics is a field of moron psychologists, it has nothing to do with genetics. Fututor Magnus fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 02:40
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ahh I would trade so many of my "smart" coworkers for good natured people with social skills and a positive attitude
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Mar 8, 2018 02:41
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Infinotize posted:ahh I would trade so many of my "smart" coworkers for good natured people with social skills and a positive attitude sounds like you're in the wrong industry mate
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Mar 8, 2018 02:59
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Fututor Magnus posted:you don't know what "heritability" is, it doesn't mean "genetic". and besides, heritability studies like twin studies are flawed, anyway.\ I mean, I'm not going to continue the discussion about IQ because it would take dozens of posts on a discussion platform not suited to the endeavor to lay out the case and this is not something I'm interested in spending time on. However, as a matter of clarity: nothing I said indicates anything about what I think heritability means nor my thoughts on the bell curve, so I don't know what you're going on about here other than you wanting to grind an axe. It's like if Person X says something bad about some welfare program or whatever and then Person Y goes off on this huge rant about republicans without even stopping to think that there's nothing incongruent about Person X saying what they said and Person X still being a supporter of that program and/or welfare programs in general. AKA, "you must blindly support my tribe or you're against it".
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Mar 8, 2018 03:28
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Thermopyle posted:I mean, I'm not going to continue the discussion about IQ because it would take dozens of posts on a discussion platform not suited to the endeavor to lay out the case and this is not something I'm interested in spending time on. the discussion was not about intelligence research per se until you brought up the claims of actual hereditarians, i.e. the same material that's the foundation of the bell curve. i don't know if you're ignorant of the actual politics of the fields, but an argument that certain kinds of people are inherently endowed with intelligence and god's graces and the rest are dumb savages is nothing but not politically motivated, and scientists like j. p. rushton and arthur jensen, and perhaps most odious amongst them being richard lynn, are abusing the veneer of scientific objectivity to defend the worst racist ideologies and policies. my original point was more relevant to the thread - and thankfully you and a few more posters came in to prove said point - about programmers' proclivity to believe in the bullshit self-fulfilling prophecy of "i am a programmer because i is smart, and i's smart because i was born smart, thus i'm better than everyone" which is the root cause of the impostor syndrome so many programmers and new programmers face. which is why programmers are such fans of race science, not because they understand genetics or anything, but because it's a cargo cult approach to sate their own egos through finding a bullshit scientific explanation for their supposed greatness.
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Mar 8, 2018 03:53
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