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Got it. Thank you all. I will finish my MBA in August but the points stand. I will take the promotion/raise and leverage that towards finding the right job somewhere else once I graduate. I have a non-compete but that isn't relevant to anything that I'm applying for. The CEO was poo-pooing my prospects of switching industries and throwing away the 8 years of experience but it's clear where he's coming from. I think (besides trying to keep me for cheap) he's trying to get me to try the new role and hopes that I will like it enough to stay long term.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:43
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:My dude, starting managers at McDonald's make $48,000 what are you doing you have an "MBA in finance" this isn't even that hard. Yeah, I thought $50k was low for that type of management experience. I mean, I know Indiana sucks rear end, but I didn’t know it sucked that bad. Right out of college, my brother managed a warehouse for a major soft drink manufacturer in the middle of bumfuck, PA and he made a lot more than 50k. Goddamn. Get the MBA and GTFO that job.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:46
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Sleepytime posted:The CEO was poo-pooing my prospects of switching industries and throwing away the 8 years of experience but it's clear where he's coming from. I think (besides trying to keep me for cheap) he's trying to get me to try the new role and hopes that I will like it enough to stay long term. Yeah because your replacement cost should be like $120,000 with bennies.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:57
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Sleepytime posted:Got it. Thank you all. I will finish my MBA in August but the points stand. Yeah, anything your boss tells you is going to be motivated at least in part by his own self-interest, which this guy doesn't even seem capable of disguising. If the role is a revolving door it's probably because your boss is paying well under the market rate. I'm not a manager, but my understanding is that management experience is fairly valuable across industries.
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Mar 7, 2018 23:28
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I've received an offer and was very underwhelmed by it (5% increase on my previous salary, 4 fewer days of leave). But the job is in a different sector and interests me. My main question here is who do I negotiate with? I've gone through five rounds of interviews: 1) HR person 2) Senior HR person 3) Hiring manager (would be my direct boss if I join, she's head of department) 4) Hiring manager's boss 5) Hiring manager's boss's boss My main point of contact has been the HR person. I've had no direct contact with the hiring manager beyond our interview. Having asked for her email address, the HR person keeps "forgetting" to relay it to me. But I could easily reverse-engineer it. My biggest concern in reaching out to her would be our lack of prior contact. The company's HR is pretty unprofessional (wouldn't even send me a formal offer letter), but I'm keen to work with the hiring manager, who's really sharp and friendly and smart. Who should I contact?
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Mar 8, 2018 03:37
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Based on this:Vegetable posted:The company's HR is pretty unprofessional (wouldn't even send me a formal offer letter), but I'm keen to work with the hiring manager, who's really sharp and friendly and smart. I wouldn't want to work for that company, would counter way higher--at a number at which I'd be willing to move to a company whose HR has its head up its rear end, which inevitably is going to turn out to be a soul sucking place to work--and would not feel bad at all when they decline. IMO. Also consider that if your reads on HR and the manager are correct, chances are very strong the sharp and friendly and smart manager you'd be going to work for will be gone within a few months of your arrival. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 03:48
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I'm moving from a qualitative analyst role to a data analytics one. To me, it doesn't hurt even to suck it up for a year before moving on -- because industry experience is so important here. The company's a fairly well known name in the region, too. I think my choice is made. (Even though I could regale with more tales of how the HR person has been badgering me, for weeks, about my current pay.) Would still be interested in seeing if you guys think reaching out to the hiring manager, with whom I've never corresponded except at an interview, would be appropriate.
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Mar 8, 2018 03:55
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There's probably no upside and a small but significant risk the HR person finds out you went around them and gets pissed off, IMO. It sounds like this is a company where HR is empowered.
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Mar 8, 2018 04:23
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Yeah, I'd insist on an offer in writing from HR (benefits included) so you can review it, then counter to the HR contact. He/she will be in contact with the hiring manager regarding your requests. Likely the manager has been badgering HR to hurry it up already.
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Mar 8, 2018 04:38
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Vegetable posted:I'm moving from a qualitative analyst role to a data analytics one. To me, it doesn't hurt even to suck it up for a year before moving on -- because industry experience is so important here. The company's a fairly well known name in the region, too. I think my choice is made. (Even though I could regale with more tales of how the HR person has been badgering me, for weeks, about my current pay.) You can find other opportunities. Don't pin all your hopes and dreams on this one, and don't take a bad deal because "it's the only one on the table"
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Mar 8, 2018 14:51
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You can find other opportunities. Don't pin all your hopes and dreams on this one, and don't take a bad deal because "it's the only one on the table" Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 17:13
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I had my performance review a few weeks ago, it went well and my manger said that she would put me up for promotion. Earlier I made it clear that my salary wasn't even close to the market value and I'd like to have that addressed. The compensation discussion is supposed to take place separately soon, but I'm not entirely sure that the offer would satisfy me. It's not just that I wasn't at the appropriate salary grade, there seems to be some sort of bubble happening here with everything getting way more expensive but importantly also salaries in the sector going up by like 15-20%. That is, even without an official promotion I'd want to see at least the market rate (which is pretty lol by itself of course). Unfortunately, I doubt our corporate overlords would sign off on number that reflects both the promotion and the increased CoL/market rates and the offer could likely be "here's a 10% raise, congrats on your long overdue promotion", assuming my manager would even want to fight for that. I'm now leaning towards doing some research for the negotiations and if I fail, start interviewing externally afterwards. Or would it make sense to try to get some offers first? Seems like that would come down to a nasty ultimatum, but when I raised the point originally, she asked me if I was looking for external jobs, and that it would be a different matter if I was. I wasn't quite yet, but surely the point is to do something about it before I decided to jump ship?
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Mar 8, 2018 17:39
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mobby_6kl posted:I'm now leaning towards doing some research for the negotiations and if I fail, start interviewing externally afterwards. Or would it make sense to try to get some offers first? Seems like that would come down to a nasty ultimatum, but when I raised the point originally, she asked me if I was looking for external jobs, and that it would be a different matter if I was. I wasn't quite yet, but surely the point is to do something about it before I decided to jump ship? In a field where your salary is below market rate, your first strategy is strictly inferior from a financial standpoint. An external offer would provide a BATNA through the promotion/raise double dutch you're about to engage in. Without it, you're quite likely to see "here's a 5% raise and a new title" which is only going to compound your perception that you're not fairly compensated. Even if you don't want to leave your job, an external offer is leverage that shows you're serious about being compensated fairly by your current employer.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:46
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Look for external offers now. The point isn't to use them as a gotcha or leverage with them, it's to figure out what you are actually worth and what's worth fighting for. There's no point in playing silly games that might get you a 20% raise if you can go out and double your salary instead. They're stalling you and taking advantage of your relative complacency, and it's working. The correct answer to "are you seeking external offers" is always "no". They just want to know if they need to be looking for a replacement. Admitting you are looking without an accompanying offer in hand and a two-weeks notice is just giving up leverage by virtue of giving them more time to come up with a BATNA for themselves. There are no ultimatums involved here - the choice is entirely on your end. Either, without you saying anything about leaving or expressing any dissatisfaction, they give you an offer that genuinely matches what you can get elsewhere (this won't happen), or you leave and go take the external offer. You're making up a step where you wave the new offer in their face in a desperate attempt to sate the part of you that is comfortable in your current position and fears change, but that's not a real option and you shouldn't treat it as one. The right answer is almost always going to be "leave your company for a new one paying more". That is how you increase your salary in this country. There are 10 complacent people just hoping for deserved a raise to come their way for every 1 who goes out and does something to get one. Be the 1.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:53
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Look for external offers now. The point isn't to use them as a gotcha or leverage with them, it's to figure out what you are actually worth and what's worth fighting for. There's no point in playing silly games that might get you a 20% raise if you can go out and double your salary instead. They're stalling you and taking advantage of your relative complacency, and it's working. 
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Mar 8, 2018 18:24
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Look for external offers now. The point isn't to use them as a gotcha or leverage with them, it's to figure out what you are actually worth and what's worth fighting for. There's no point in playing silly games that might get you a 20% raise if you can go out and double your salary instead. They're stalling you and taking advantage of your relative complacency, and it's working. this post is a good post A competing offer isn't an obligation on your behalf to then ultimatum your employer. You go to your employer and demand fair compensation without disclosing any information about the competing offer. Either: a) They say no. You give two weeks notice and take the other offer. You win! b) They give you fair compensation and are not looking for your replacement. Your compensation is corrected and they're not looking for ways to fire you. You win! Talking about the offer creates, out of thin air, option c: c) They give you what you asked for, hire your replacement for what you used to make, have you train up your replacement, and then fire you. They're out a couple of months of the raise. You're hunting for jobs with no BATNA. You lose.
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Mar 8, 2018 19:03
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^ Yes, exactly. Just also be very very wary of taking the other option C: c) They say no, you give two weeks' notice, they cave and give you the money you want and then you turn down the other offer. This usually--not always, but usually--ends up the same way as Dwight's option C, they're just buying time to arrange for a cheaper replacement. Once they say no it's usually better to just leave and take the other offer with a company that actually wants you at that price.
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Mar 8, 2018 19:18
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I think complacency is common enough that, as generic advice that doesn't invoke specifics of the company/job in question, you should probably leave by default even in case B.
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Mar 8, 2018 19:57
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Yeah complacency is a bitch, I fully recognize that this is how I got to this stage but doing something about it is eh... doesn't help that this is one of the best employers in general and I can work remotely and with flexible time. Still that's not enough to make up for the cash of course. Thanks for the suggestions, this really helps to get my poo poo together.
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Mar 9, 2018 11:54
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Hi again everyone, it's been a while since I've needed to post itt. I am a licensed vet tech in Maine and have interviewed with a practice management software company. It is a switch in industry for me (kind of - the company sells the software to vet clinics) and I will be doing software implementation. The interviews have gone very well, and they just made me an offer last night. Overall, I am very happy with the offer, but some outside feedback would be nice. The company is small(er), with about 70 employees, but it's based overseas and they are opening a new office where I would be working. It requires me to relocate from Maine to Texas, which is about 1900 miles away. They didn't mention any relocation reimbursement or anything like that in the offer, but we did talk a few times over the course of multiple interviews about me having to relocate. I think that asking for that is not unreasonable - any advice on a good way to frame it? I've never had to negotiate for relocation before. During the first interview the recruitment manager mentioned that the position is banded between 40k-50k with a bonus structure. They offered me 42.5k and the bonus structure, while it gives me percentages, doesn't really narrow down how much I might realistically see as a bonus. I feel like I am at a bit of a disadvantage because I am changing fields and going to be working a position that I don't have experience in, but they were very eager to hire me. I am inclined to ask for the middle of the range instead of the lower quarter. Right now I make 34k doing vet tech work. Any thoughts/tips/advice? My offer is good until the 11th, so I am trying to take a day or two to really mull it over and iron out the details. The salary is less important to me than the relocation reimbursement, if I'm honest, but it would be great to get both.
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Mar 9, 2018 13:41
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Don't blindly follow my advice, get advice from other, smarter people, but I would ask for like $47K plus moving expenses (that means cost of movers+transportation and first month's rent), and be willing to accept about $45K but no less. If you're moving to one of Texas' major cities then even $50K is going to be tough to live more than paycheck to paycheck on though, and I question the wisdom of moving 2,000 miles away unless the new job is a major step in the direction you want to go, career-wise. (Or unless you're not from Maine and don't really give a poo poo about moving away from there.) Have you scouted out what actual living expenses are in the area you'd be moving to and how they compare to where you currently live? Your BATNA is not having to go through the gigantic hassle of moving 2,000 miles away for what works out to a pittance of a raise (or even a pay cut in terms of salary versus COL) so saying "yeah I'm motivated to take this job but it's going to take a little bit more to be worth relocating for" is reasonable. But as with all human communication, it's all in the delivery. IMO.
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Mar 9, 2018 15:54
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Eric the Mauve posted:Don't blindly follow my advice, get advice from other, smarter people, but I would ask for like $47K plus moving expenses (that means cost of movers+transportation and first month's rent), and be willing to accept about $45K but no less. If you're moving to one of Texas' major cities then even $50K is going to be tough to live more than paycheck to paycheck on though, and I question the wisdom of moving 2,000 miles away unless the new job is a major step in the direction you want to go, career-wise. (Or unless you're not from Maine and don't really give a poo poo about moving away from there.) Have you scouted out what actual living expenses are in the area you'd be moving to and how they compare to where you currently live? As a note, relocation expenses are usually paid in the form of a bonus, which has tax implications. So you may need to ask for it to be grossed-up to cover the tax implications as well.
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Mar 9, 2018 16:29
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:My dude, starting managers at McDonald's make $48,000 what are you doing you have an "MBA in finance" this isn't even that hard. lovely MBA is my guess there are a million poo poo MBA programs reliably churning out graduates
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Mar 9, 2018 18:02
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Zauper posted:As a note, relocation expenses are usually paid in the form of a bonus, which has tax implications. So you may need to ask for it to be grossed-up to cover the tax implications as well. it has tax implications in that it's taxed as income, yes
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Mar 9, 2018 18:05
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I think they were just trying to be helpful because someone getting their first relocation package may ask for $7K and not realize that the company is going to take that as gross, not net.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:13
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Eric the Mauve posted:I question the wisdom of moving 2,000 miles away unless the new job is a major step in the direction you want to go, career-wise. (Or unless you're not from Maine and don't really give a poo poo about moving away from there.) Have you scouted out what actual living expenses are in the area you'd be moving to and how they compare to where you currently live? I have looked into the COL as it compares to where I live now and calculators tell me it’s 10-15% cheaper where I would be moving to. I looked into rents and they range from comparable to better than my current area for the same kinds of housing. I haven’t actually been there so I am a little under informed about which neighborhoods are lovely to live in, but I am investing that as well. I am not bothered by the idea of moving to Texas, just dealing with the cost associated with packing up and shipping out there. I have some family and friends out that way. The job itself is a big opportunity for me. I am sick of clinic work and have been on the lookout for a chance to transition into something else more lucrative, that my current skill set is still at least somewhat relevant in. Being that I’ve never had to try to negotiate moving expenses, can anyone elaborate on how that works? I’ve started pricing out moving costs already. Do I just say “moving expenses to the amount of $xxx?” And give them an estimated number? I appreciate the advice!
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Mar 10, 2018 01:42
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I have written a first draft of an email I intend to send to the hiring manager from my above post. Here is a redacted version; please tell me (gently) what is garbage and what is not: an email posted:Hello [Recruitment Manager], From my interviews, the CEO and Recruitment Manager guy are both younger (right around 30, I believe) and both exude this kind of "start-uppy" feel for the company, and both of them asked me things like "are you excited about this opportunity?" which is why I chose the 'starting a new and lasting adventure' line, even though it feels kind of pretentious to write.
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Mar 10, 2018 04:49
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I'd drop the sentence about the salary band and ask for more. I don't think 55,000 + relocation would be a crazy request, such that he'd show you the door - that'd be how to get your 50,000 at least. It's kind of bounded by what you have the balls to ask for.
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Mar 10, 2018 04:56
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Not Grover posted:I have looked into the COL as it compares to where I live now and calculators tell me it’s 10-15% cheaper where I would be moving to. I looked into rents and they range from comparable to better than my current area for the same kinds of housing. I haven’t actually been there so I am a little under informed about which neighborhoods are lovely to live in, but I am investing that as well. I am not bothered by the idea of moving to Texas, just dealing with the cost associated with packing up and shipping out there. I have some family and friends out that way. You need to plan a trip there. Preferably on their dime, for at least several days. Perhaps you can meet with whomever is working on finding/opening this office, perhaps you can help scout locations. I get they don't have an office there yet. This is even worse - because you have no idea what they are going to get and what it's going to be like. You should at least investigate the area and other job opportunities in your field(s) in case things go wrong and make sure you actually want to live there.
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Mar 10, 2018 04:57
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Yeah a trip to see the place and maybe look at apartments is definitely in order as part of the relocation package - it hadn't really occurred to me that you hadn't gone there to interview.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:03
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Not sure if this is a question that's possible to answer but I figure I may as well in case it is. I work in a quasi-lawyer field, so providing specific legal services to clients. I'm involved in quoting & negotiating payment so I know pretty much exactly how much money I'm generating for the business (putting aside that I don't do marketing and obviously a portion of the credit goes to the people bringing in the clients). I worked out that conservatively, not counting pipeline stuff that hasn't been completed yet, I've brought in approximately double my salary in the last 11 months. Is that good for someone with a couple of years of experience? Is that something I should be bringing up to justify a raise or is that not considered a lot? Is this a question that's so broad and differing per company that there's no point asking the wider internet?
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Mar 10, 2018 14:25
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Organza Quiz posted:Not sure if this is a question that's possible to answer but I figure I may as well in case it is. I work in a quasi-lawyer field, so providing specific legal services to clients. I'm involved in quoting & negotiating payment so I know pretty much exactly how much money I'm generating for the business (putting aside that I don't do marketing and obviously a portion of the credit goes to the people bringing in the clients). I worked out that conservatively, not counting pipeline stuff that hasn't been completed yet, I've brought in approximately double my salary in the last 11 months. Is that good for someone with a couple of years of experience? Is that something I should be bringing up to justify a raise or is that not considered a lot? Is this a question that's so broad and differing per company that there's no point asking the wider internet? It depends on a lot of things. Like the quality of the benefits, frankly. The general rule of thumb I've used in the past is that for a company to break even on you (when you're really cheap it might be even more) you need to double your salary. Also depends on location - office space expense is highly variable, for example. Our offices were expensive (downtown DC) but my recollection from fully loaded costs on our govt bids puts that about right. You should still ask for a raise though, especially if you have visibility relative to your coworkers and can present yourself as a top performing (position) member of the team.
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Mar 10, 2018 15:39
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I'm in a country where we have pretty decent benefits baked into the law and it's unusual to get anything extra, and I'm the only person performing my role aside from a guy who was getting paid way more than me, was way more experienced, and got fired for loving up really, really badly. So I unfortunately don't have too much to compare with, but thanks for the rule of thumb that's good to know.
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Mar 10, 2018 15:52
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What’s the best way to ask for reassignment of a project? Last year I was assigned a project that I really enjoyed working on, and it showed. I exceeded all my metrics and earned a performance excellence award for my work on that project. As a result, I got a nice bonus and was promoted to senior level with a 20% pay increase effective 4/1. Once that project completed, I rolled onto another project that has stalled and I’ve sat at home (I work remote and typically travel the east coast) for 3 months doing nothing and complaining to my manager that I have nothing to do. It’s still slow and I’ve hinted that I want to work on another project that keeps me busy with lots of travel. I’ve also outright asked to be re-assigned to another therapeutic area which is hard to break into, but there’s a constant need. I had asked for a hard timeline and was told “we’ll see how the progression goes on your current project”, which sounds like carrot dangling to me. The current project would run until 11/2019, so I really don’t want to spend the next 18 months working on a project that I won’t enjoy. I’m impatient and there are several issues that make the current project less desirable for me to work on, however, many people in my position would really want to work on this one (max 40 hours/week, less travel, more nights at home, etc). Turnover within my industry is high because there are often sign on bonuses and people will bounce from company to company and back again for bonuses. I have constantly have recruiters asking if I’m interested. I’d like to stay at my current company, but not if they’re going to keep me on projects that I don’t want to work on. Is there an acceptable way to ask for re-assignment by hinting that I’m looking elsewhere and entertaining offers from other companies?
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Mar 12, 2018 19:21
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Putting someone on a project wherein they aren't doing anything for months at a time and ignoring their requests for something to do is a pretty standard way megacorps let people know their services are no longer needed. Most likely they want you finding another job and the sooner the better. It's either that or it's just a fantastically hosed up organization, in which case you will want to find another job and the sooner the better.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:Putting someone on a project wherein they aren't doing anything for months at a time and ignoring their requests for something to do is a pretty standard way megacorps let people know their services are no longer needed. Most likely they want you finding another job and the sooner the better. It's either that or it's just a fantastically hosed up organization, in which case you will want to find another job and the sooner the better. Thanks, yeah, I’ve been looking and talking to a few recruiters, so I’ll keep doing that. What is the reasoning behind that? Just letting the people stagnate until they get fed up and want to go elsewhere? Why give me a promotion and a raise then? The corporate world confuses me so much sometimes.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:22
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A boss did that to me once - same situation, successful project, promotion + raise followed by not giving me the time of day for months on end. I'm pretty sure it was some combination of his indirect and conflict-avoidant personality, fear that if he laid me off it would panic the rest of the staff, and a calculation that another project might come in and he might need my skill set again.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:33
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Cacafuego posted:What is the reasoning behind that? Just letting the people stagnate until they get fed up and want to go elsewhere? Why give me a promotion and a raise then? The corporate world confuses me so much sometimes. Two reasons, one emotional and one practical: it feels good to make someone suffer, and if you resign they don't have to pay unemployment comp or a severance. One thing I learned very early in my life and have had reinforced consistently ever since is that sometimes you have no idea what intrigues and power struggles are going on in the executive suites or in what way you might be a pawn in them. But if you're an achiever then you're noticeable and that inevitably means you will become a pawn in their games, which means poo poo will happen to you seemingly at random and you won't understand why until long after the fact, if ever. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 20:49
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The corollary to that is that you should attempt to seek out awareness of such things so that you might sidestep landmines you'd otherwise never see coming. It pays to be a busybody to some extent.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:52
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The corollary to that is that you should attempt to seek out awareness of such things so that you might sidestep landmines you'd otherwise never see coming. It pays to be a busybody to some extent. Big time. But especially earlier in your career, sometimes the intrigues are happening so far above your level that there's no way to get reliable information about them. You can get a general idea of who your friends and enemies are upstairs but the specifics of what's going on will be hard for you to come by. But being able to quickly discern which way the wind is blowing shortly after arriving with a new employer and aligning yourself accordingly is a real skill that's worth developing. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:02
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