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Vitamin P posted:Somehow I didn't see 'Beast Players Guide', I don't know what a Makara is and I don't know who Matt is. So I completely misread those paragraphs and thought they were pretty good. Textually, it's already starting to be problematic as stand alone due to "...Mr Coffey tasted innocence, wonder, the kind of fear that quickened the step and widened the eyes [...] I'll be a social worker this time." So you already see that Coffey is a predator. Immortal or not, he's going to be an antagonist. Some people will (rightfully so) have an issue with it right there. Then it's attached to Beast where Coffey would be a playable character and you just want to take the printed copy and throw it at the person who wrote it. We don't need to create a space where it's okay to take on that kind of persona. It's not okay. Creating a game where someone could conceivably make a sexual or child predator is not something you can completely control, and you can do it in vampire, mage, etc. But a game line in which those archetypes are the focus is a terrible idea. Then continuing to keep putting out material like that after being called on the bullshit paradigm and your Dev quitting because of really lovely behavior is just really stupid. Change the paradigm if you're contractually obligated to put out more material, but don't keep releasing the same garbage.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:25
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Jhet posted:Then continuing to keep putting out material like that after being called on the bullshit paradigm and your Dev quitting because of really lovely behavior is just really stupid. Change the paradigm if you're contractually obligated to put out more material, but don't keep releasing the same garbage. Uhh, Matt didn't quit.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:37
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Kurieg posted:Uhh, Matt didn't quit. I'm likely mis-remembering something then. Beast is still terrible.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:43
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Jhet posted:I'm likely mis-remembering something then. Beast is still terrible. Matt was let go for being the terrible human being that he is, this is the last book he wrote for. I'm not sure at what point in the development process the book was at when he was outed last year. But likely too far gone to really change that much. The intro fiction was written by him, as was some of the fluff text. But the vast majority of the book is neutral to negative about Beasts.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:50
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Jhet posted:I'm likely mis-remembering something then. Beast is still terrible. It's worse.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:51
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Kurieg posted:Yeah I imagine this was the last book he was working on for OPP when he got shitcanned. Remember how kids weren't ever Beasts (because you had to choose), except they always were (because you were born that way)? Yeah. Sigh.
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Mar 8, 2018 22:16
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Kurieg posted:Matt was let go for being the terrible human being that he is, this is the last book he wrote for. I'm not sure at what point in the development process the book was at when he was outed last year. But likely too far gone to really change that much. The intro fiction was written by him, as was some of the fluff text. But the vast majority of the book is neutral to negative about Beasts. Yes, definitely remembering wrong. I see that I could (should?) have gone even further with that rant.
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Mar 8, 2018 22:18
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Second Sight game is thus far a rousing success! Highlights include: -The centipede familiar that has more intelligence than any other member of the party -Three old men going to a playground while children are present and dropping said centipede on the ground to follow it around -The medium dropping someone and breaking the person's arm by dramatically failing a roll to hoist them up over his head, then blaming said failure on "uhhhh ghosts distracted me."
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Mar 8, 2018 23:16
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One other fun part about the Beast Player's Guide: a lot of in-character Beast posturing about how the Astral doesn't work like those mages say it do with the Primordial Dream, and Horrors are special and not just goetia of fear, and the rules text basically leaning over their shoulder and mouthing YES IT DOES, AND YES THEY ARE and winking.
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Mar 8, 2018 23:49
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Mors Rattus posted:One other fun part about the Beast Player's Guide: a lot of in-character Beast posturing about how the Astral doesn't work like those mages say it do with the Primordial Dream, and Horrors are special and not just goetia of fear, and the rules text basically leaning over their shoulder and mouthing YES IT DOES, AND YES THEY ARE and winking. I tried being subtle in the corebook, and decided to cut to the chase. It's not necessarily "mages are right, beasts are wrong;" as the rules make clear, they're experiencing the same phenomena, but coming up with different models based on them. Of course Beasts think of the Anima Mundi as the Dark Mother's Lair, because the effects of what mages call the ecstatic wind are really like what happens when they consume someone, so it's like a giant Lair. But to a mage, Beast's Lairs are like the Astral Realms have had a hernia, dumping a bit of the Anima Mundi into the Temenos.
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Mar 9, 2018 00:18
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Dave Brookshaw posted:I tried being subtle in the corebook, and decided to cut to the chase. Can I ask who's responsible for Direct Dial and Connected Lair?
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Mar 9, 2018 01:18
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Kavak posted:I'm pretty sure there is. This book was mandated by the Kickstarter, right? In terms of popularity of Demon vs. Beast, I'm with nofather - judging it solely on number of forum posts is misleading because Beast has been vastly, vastly more controversial than Demon ever was. That and a lot of Beast's concepts are just plain weird - and not weird in an interesting way like the strangest parts of Demon so much as weird in a "Is the description of this concept even written in English, or is it just a completely different language where all the words happen to resemble English words with different meanings?" sort of a way. (I'm still not seeing what the point of Heroes is when they occupy the exact same conceptual space as Hunters - or, for the matter, why Beasts aren't just utterly redundant in the structure of NWoD altogether.)
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Mar 9, 2018 14:05
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The Beast Player's Guide was not slated for the Kickstarter. Odds are strong it was put on the agenda and started to contract out before the Kickstarter ended, though; it was certainly being forecasted and mentioned back then. As for forum posts, I'd argue that it's a poor indicator of popularity also because volume of play doesn't directly translate to volume of discussion. There are different stripes of games, and some are "smoother" than others, independently of how good or bad they are, in the sense of not really driving a need to ask hypotheticals or spawn homebrew material. I wouldn't know if Demon is one of those games, given its own idiosyncracies, but the point is there's variables at play.
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Mar 9, 2018 14:19
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I Am Just a Box posted:As for forum posts, I'd argue that it's a poor indicator of popularity also because volume of play doesn't directly translate to volume of discussion. There are different stripes of games, and some are "smoother" than others, independently of how good or bad they are, in the sense of not really driving a need to ask hypotheticals or spawn homebrew material. I wouldn't know if Demon is one of those games, given its own idiosyncracies, but the point is there's variables at play. This is true. For all the Mage Chat that happens here, I don't really believe it is 10x more popular than Vampire or the other lines. Just more to think about.
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Mar 9, 2018 15:03
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I'm meeting with my group of fresh RPG players tonight to go over character creation, concepts and so on before our first game session. I'm really excited but worry it won't be easy for them to flesh out their ideas. It's a CoD straight-up mortals, modern day spooky investigation game. Gonna really try to hone in on the horror aspects - personal and otherwise - for this one because that's what they asked for. Any advice for me to be aware of? I've run this and Hunter a few times but always with people who have played RPGs for years. They're familiar with the concept but I want to be sure everyone knows how it works - and has a good time! E: other question: How are beasts rated in terms of power compared to vampires, mages, etc? Everything I've read on here about them makes them seem more reactionary than imposing their will on the world. I could be very wrong, however.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:53
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crime fighting hog posted:E: other question: How are beasts rated in terms of power compared to vampires, mages, etc? Everything I've read on here about them makes them seem more reactionary than imposing their will on the world. I could be very wrong, however. Nightmares can be ludicrously powerful, and a properly defined Lair can twist any fight to your favor. But in a stand up brawl they're not that strong unless they have the proper Atavisms.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:37
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Yeah, Atavisms range in power from 'why would you ever take this' to 'can deal agg or summon death storms at will'.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:38
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For instance, one of the new Atavisms out of the BPG lets you reduce the dexterity of people you hit with it (at melee or range) and once you reduce it to zero they gain the immmobilized tilt until the end of the scene.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:51
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Kurieg posted:For instance, one of the new Atavisms out of the BPG lets you reduce the dexterity of people you hit with it (at melee or range) and once you reduce it to zero they gain the immmobilized tilt until the end of the scene. I hate Atavisms, btw, among other things in Beast.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:53
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Kurieg posted:For instance, one of the new Atavisms out of the BPG lets you reduce the dexterity of people you hit with it (at melee or range) and once you reduce it to zero they gain the immmobilized tilt until the end of the scene.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:12
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Mors Rattus posted:Yeah, Atavisms range in power from 'why would you ever take this' to 'can deal agg or summon death storms at will'. Are Beasts the new Sin-Eaters?
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Mar 9, 2018 22:55
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I mean, there's also a Changeling contract that does almost this exact thing in 2e (grappled target only, it hits Strength instead, but can hit Dex if you've got the appropriate seeming bonus). Mages could also do this in 1e, I think, not sure about 2e. I'm not saying Atavisms aren't uniquely bad or anything, but that's not a great pick to single out.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:57
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As an example of how powerful nightmares can be.quote:Everything You Know Is A Lie
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Mar 9, 2018 23:01
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Bikindok posted:I mean, there's also a Changeling contract that does almost this exact thing in 2e (grappled target only, it hits Strength instead, but can hit Dex if you've got the appropriate seeming bonus). Mages could also do this in 1e, I think, not sure about 2e. In 2E, Life 3 gets you Degrading the Form, but it can't reduce stats below 1. You add a Reach to hit another stat at the same time, though. Of course at Life 4 you can just straight-up turn someone into a frog or something. 
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Mar 9, 2018 23:02
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Still not entirely sure how I feel about my group's attachment to Beast. I don't want to yuck anyone's yum (they seem to be going more for the 'scare rich people by breaking their windows!" aspect of the game) but holy poo poo do I never, ever want to hear anything about the game. Part of their argument is that it's more of an underdog fantasy, where you've been made different and looked down on and you can take action somehow? gently caress if I know. All I know is that if I'm going to play the person that no one likes I'm going to be rocking a Prommie and if I'm playing someone on a roaring rampage of revenge I'm going to be playing Deviant. Bikindok posted:I mean, there's also a Changeling contract that does almost this exact thing in 2e (grappled target only, it hits Strength instead, but can hit Dex if you've got the appropriate seeming bonus). Mages could also do this in 1e, I think, not sure about 2e. Might of the Terrible Brute. And you have to win the contested grapple, not just use it.
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Mar 9, 2018 23:04
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crime fighting hog posted:Any advice for me to be aware of? I've run this and Hunter a few times but always with people who have played RPGs for years. They're familiar with the concept but I want to be sure everyone knows how it works - and has a good time! Some other things that aren’t really apparent about the game until you’ve had some solid play experience: Combat is generally much more lethal than it looks on the page, when things like supernatural defense and added damage from firearms are factored in. And willpower is not meant to be hoarded. Speaking of willpower you might also clue them in to the various knock-on effects of stats and / or the athletics skill. How willpower and breaking points are calculated, etc. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 23:04
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citybeatnik posted:Still not entirely sure how I feel about my group's attachment to Beast. I don't want to yuck anyone's yum (they seem to be going more for the 'scare rich people by breaking their windows!" aspect of the game) but holy poo poo do I never, ever want to hear anything about the game. Part of their argument is that it's more of an underdog fantasy, where you've been made different and looked down on and you can take action somehow? gently caress if I know.
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Mar 10, 2018 03:43
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Nessus posted:You could introduce them to Bellum Maga, which has a more coherent take on the concept. I have some bad news for you re: fetish content and creepiness as it applies to Bellum Maga.
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Mar 10, 2018 04:01
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I'm in need of some assistance. One of my players in this Second Sight game has taken the Apostle of the Dark One thaumaturgy tradition, and has chosen as two of their aspirations "Learn how to contact an Old One" and "Contact an Old One for forbidden knowledge" They clearly want to go for a Cthulu angle here, but I'm sticking to primarily ghosts with a smattering of spirits and fae stuff here and there for this game. The easiest way to do this would be to make this "Old One" a powerful spirit, but I'm not sure where to go with this after drawing that conclusion. Part of me wants to make it a Health Spirit both for irony and because then I could have a safety net in case one of them dies to something stupid. But I'm open to suggestions for something more thematically appropriate. (Game takes place in 1890 Boston for reference, using the Dark Era Lifting the Veil)
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Mar 10, 2018 04:36
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Mors Rattus posted:I have some bad news for you re: fetish content and creepiness as it applies to Bellum Maga. 
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Mar 10, 2018 04:55
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Xinder posted:I'm in need of some assistance.
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Mar 10, 2018 04:58
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Mors Rattus posted:I have some bad news for you re: fetish content and creepiness as it applies to Bellum Maga.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:04
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Xinder posted:I'm in need of some assistance. Things might change up in 2e with Geist on the horizon, but at least knowing what we know of the 1e setting? Cthonians. The native beings of the Underworld, ghosts of things that never lived, the stillborn undead. Avoid making it explicit in game, but especially since older ghosts that reside in the Underworld can grow stranger and further from human, it should be easy to blur the line between human ghost and a minor cthonian god which is less alien than its brethren, familiar enough to communicate with the human living in a comprehensible manner. Its relations with younger, more human ghosts could potentially wring some mystery and tension out of the setting. Blur the line between that and a geist, an elemental ghost suffused with entire swaths of deaths rather than just one alone, and you can reserve something resembling the Bargain or more conventional Claiming as another potential safety net. crime fighting hog posted:I'm meeting with my group of fresh RPG players tonight to go over character creation, concepts and so on before our first game session. I'm really excited but worry it won't be easy for them to flesh out their ideas. Have your group agree on the pitch and thrust of your game and what bond ties the player characters together first, and then create individual concepts from there. I'm going to send impressing on them the importance of spending Willpower when succeeding at an action matters, and making sure they're able to restore it regularly. When time isn't tight on the players, the primary reason they shouldn't be spending Willpower on a roll is that they can't afford to spend more. Often (but of course, not always), if it's not worth burning Willpower, it's not worth rolling the dice for in the first place. If you're playing 2e CofD, point out the role of Conditions to them as narrative carrots. Conditions like Spooked and Shaken should be relatively common in mortal investigative horror, and they exist to highlight opportunities for that classic moment when a character makes a judgment in the moment that the audience knows will not turn out well, and to use beat rewards to make it feel good when those moments occur. Be willing to fly fast and loose with them, improvising new Conditions or different effects for existing Conditions when they feel appropriate, and don't sweat their details. Bend the Conditions to the story rather than the story to the Conditions, however; if it doesn't feel natural for a Condition to come into play, don't force it. Sometimes they just hang and go away, like when the soundtrack gets eerie for a few minutes and then lets up without a direct scare. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 05:15
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Nessus posted:You could introduce them to Bellum Maga, which has a more coherent take on the concept. (blood drips out of nose) Zereth posted:Doesn't it have the same drat problem with the abilities and actions of the PC type painting the enemy "oppressors" as being completely correct? Yes But at least it's blatant about it's fetishes... and the fetishes aren't Pedophilia.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:20
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Zereth posted:Doesn't it have the same drat problem with the abilities and actions of the PC type painting the enemy "oppressors" as being completely correct?
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Mar 10, 2018 05:59
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Nessus posted:I always hesitate in saying it makes the oppressors "correct" in any way; but a lot of these things go so deep into the revenge aspect that they end up producing an awkward sympathy for the other guy, simply because Ted Cruz doesn't have magic powers, yet here he is, being turned into a cigarette and smoked by a traced Wiccan. It's like if Captain America didn't punch Hitler, he just periodically leapt out of a bush to punch a block leader or a factory shift leader in Germany. If you go back into the book's fictional backstory, the reason why the witches were cast down in the first place is because the men, and women who didn't have magic, rose up against the Magocracy. Of course they needed help from Mars' Penis Analogue to do so. In a right and just world they would have accepted their place licking the boots of their plump goddysesses and welcomed being smoked to death to power their spells.
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Mar 10, 2018 06:07
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Kurieg posted:If you go back into the book's fictional backstory, the reason why the witches were cast down in the first place is because the men, and women who didn't have magic, rose up against the Magocracy. Of course they needed help from Mars' Penis Analogue to do so. In a right and just world they would have accepted their place licking the boots of their plump goddysesses and welcomed being smoked to death to power their spells.
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Mar 10, 2018 06:21
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Zereth posted:Yeah I was not making that accusation against Bellum Maga without some solid backing here. And the Hero's claim that beasts are horrible monsters and should be destroyed for the good of all is 100% correct if you don't buy the extremely vague thing about "lessons", which doesn't, i believe, have any mechanical backing or even real fluff backing. The BPG straight up says "Couching Feeding as Lessons is a thing Beasts do to feel better about themselves." There's a sidebar below the Obascus rite that requires a human sacrifice that is summed up as " 'Oh but isn't human sacrifice evil?' You're playing Beast for gently caress's sake. This is a pretty weird loving place to draw the line."
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Mar 10, 2018 06:28
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Zereth posted:Yeah I was not making that accusation against Bellum Maga without some solid backing here. And the Hero's claim that beasts are horrible monsters and should be destroyed for the good of all is 100% correct if you don't buy the extremely vague thing about "lessons", which doesn't, i believe, have any mechanical backing or even real fluff backing. You can of course work out the metaphysics of your own game, but it sounds like they are at least leaning into "yeah, Beasts are objectively horrible."
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Mar 10, 2018 06:40
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