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McCloud posted:"Steve Rogers: We have orders, we should follow them. I feel like "following orders" only has Nazi connotations if the person saying it is using it as an excuse for committing atrocities. At this point, Steve hasn't been asked to do anything more than what he did fighting Hydra in WWII, which from his point of view might as well have occurred last week. He hasn't had time to fully process his new present, much less the differences between the war he knew and the conflict he's now in the middle of, so it makes perfect sense that he's still in soldier mode, relying on chain of command to deal with being so far out of his element.
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Mar 9, 2018 14:15
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McCloud posted:I strongly disagree on both counts. Some in the cast were good. SLJ, RDJ, Ruffalo, Loki both did great. Cap and widow did so and so, because the script didn't get the characters (both were fantastic in WS though), and Clint was just...there. Sometimes.
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Mar 9, 2018 14:42
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah but despite what children's television might say, in a fight if you're weak you're not very useful no matter how big your heart is. Anyone stopping to beat on you isn't beating on someone else, the longer you can tie them up taking a hit the longer everyone else has to deal with their own fights.
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Mar 9, 2018 14:50
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irlZaphod posted:Yeah it definitely would have been improved by showing thousands of civilians being killed. It would at least make Civil War more reasonable 
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Mar 9, 2018 15:16
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Samuringa posted:It would at least make Civil War more reasonable Eh. Not really. The underlying message behind Civil War is pretty much a direct response to all the people obsessing over how many people died in New York or Sokovia or Metropolis. Every death counts. It’s not a coincidence that every major player in Civil War is motivated by the death of one person (or one family in the cases of Tony and Zemo).
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Mar 9, 2018 15:59
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I see a Septa logo in the back which means they're setting this in Philadelphia. Awesome, that was the best part of the reboot. He also looks like Geroge Michael in the muscle suit which is perfect for Shazam omg chael crash fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 16:11
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glitchwraith posted:I feel like "following orders" only has Nazi connotations if the person saying it is using it as an excuse for committing atrocities. At this point, Steve hasn't been asked to do anything more than what he did fighting Hydra in WWII, which from his point of view might as well have occurred last week. He hasn't had time to fully process his new present, much less the differences between the war he knew and the conflict he's now in the middle of, so it makes perfect sense that he's still in soldier mode, relying on chain of command to deal with being so far out of his element. He was also frozen during the MCU equivalent to the Nuremberg trials so the phrase wont have the same baggage for him.
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Mar 9, 2018 16:27
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omg chael crash posted:I see a Septa logo in the back which means they're setting this in Philadelphia. Awesome, that was the best part of the reboot. That just means they are filming it there
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Mar 9, 2018 16:45
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Endless Mike posted:That just means they are filming it there They're filming it in Toronto. Edit: Patty Jenkins confirmed Kristen Wiig is in Wonder Woman 2 as Cheetah. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 16:50
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glitchwraith posted:I feel like "following orders" only has Nazi connotations if the person saying it is using it as an excuse for committing atrocities. At this point, Steve hasn't been asked to do anything more than what he did fighting Hydra in WWII, which from his point of view might as well have occurred last week. He hasn't had time to fully process his new present, much less the differences between the war he knew and the conflict he's now in the middle of, so it makes perfect sense that he's still in soldier mode, relying on chain of command to deal with being so far out of his element. It doesn't really matter if it has a connotations to Nazis to Steve, or if he wasn't aware of the Nuremberg trials (or if they even happened) because the Avengers isn't a documentary, it's a movie with a scrip written by people who should have made the connection between that phrase and Nazis. Someone put that dialogue in a script, which means that Whedon either A) wasn't aware of the Nazi connotations of that phrase or B) was aware and was making some really unfortunate implications about Cap or C) he just didn't think about what the hell he was doing. As low as my opinions are of Whedon, I don't think he's that ignorant of history, so it's likely that he's either inept or malicious. 50/50 odds there, I'd say. But even if we're charitable and just assume that the allusion wasn't intentional by the scriptwriters , we still end up with a Steve Rogers who is in the exact same mindset, and uses the exact same excuse, as warcriminals used to commit horrific atrocities. I'm pretty sure that Captain America isn't supposed to be a mindless drone that just follows orders, but rather has a strong moral compass and does what he thinks is right, and that comment is just the complete opposite and antithesis of what he should be representing. Also worth pointing out that he says that to defend SHIELD, and is later proven wrong by Tony Stark, who was right all along. His faith is shown to be misplaced. That's not even mentioning how SHIELD literally turned out to be Nazis who attempted to commit horrific atrocities. Oops. irlZaphod posted:Yeah it definitely would have been improved by showing thousands of civilians being killed. If they want to demonstrate the stakes of an alien invasion and show that they are an actual threat there's a vast spectrum between "Graphically showing thousands of people being brutally slaughtered" and "blowing up empty cars". The latter is lazy, and I don't particularly feel that this alien invasion that takes place in 3 blocks in Manhattan was all that dangerous because of it. YMMV on this though.
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Mar 9, 2018 18:13
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Showing dead bodies is a cheap and schlocky way of demonstrating the stakes of the plot. It's a creative decision as to whether you want to do that or not, and it's a pretty bad argument to use when discussing a film's merits. The stakes are clearly high, there's a huge portal open over New York with tons of alien creatures flooding out of it. There are a ton of valid arguments (there are even actually one or two used in your post, amazingly enough!) about why Avengers isn't a very good film (despite being entertaining enough) to have to resort to this dumb argument. vvv Well, that's part of the creative decision. irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 18:18
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No it's not, it's a ratings and audience reach decision.
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Mar 9, 2018 18:21
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irlZaphod posted:Showing dead bodies is a cheap and schlocky way of demonstrating the stakes of the plot. It's a creative decision as to whether you want to do that or not, and it's a pretty bad argument to use when discussing a film's merits. You seem confused. This McCloud posted:
does not translate into irlZaphod posted:show dead bodies The point I am making is not that they need to show dead bodies to convey risk and tension, but that the way they did it was lazy at best and inept at worst. There are other ways to make the aliens seem threatening than making Manhattan a car free zone.
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Mar 9, 2018 18:26
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McCloud posted:It doesn't really matter if it has a connotations to Nazis to Steve, or if he wasn't aware of the Nuremberg trials (or if they even happened) because the Avengers isn't a documentary, it's a movie with a scrip written by people who should have made the connection between that phrase and Nazis. You’re projecting an awful lot into the quote. Divorced from any other context, simply following orders isn’t exclusive to Nazis. Soldiers follow orders. In the context of the scene he’s chastising Tony for working at cross-purposes with SHIELD, who are ostensibly on their side, in the face of an imminent disaster. Steve is lost in time, and retreating into a comfortable position; that of a soldier following orders. No, that’s not really his style, which is why he investigates and eventually realizes Tony was right.
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Mar 9, 2018 18:54
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The avengers finally coming together to fight together, combination attacks and all, is clearly intended to be the triumphant climax of the film. Showing people dying would subvert the emotional point of that moment and make it seem in crazily bad taste.
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Mar 9, 2018 18:57
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I thought the we need to follow our orders thing was pretty clearly thematically tied to Steve's growth from Being A Solider to Being An Avenger And needing to see bodies is dumb this isn't the snyderverse
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Mar 9, 2018 19:03
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Yeah, there’s a pretty big difference between someone saying they have orders that they think should be followed,and doing the “just following orders” defense. It’s really weird to not be able to see the difference. It’s not even being blind to subtlety.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:06
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And The Avengers does go out of its way to show civilians in danger in the bank scene. It also alludes to the human cost with the montage at the end, showing the memorial wall. The whole "MARVEL MOVIES ONLY CARE ABOUT CARS" meme is overblown and stupid.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:08
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McCloud posted:But even if we're charitable and just assume that the allusion wasn't intentional by the scriptwriters , we still end up with a Steve Rogers who is in the exact same mindset, and uses the exact same excuse, as warcriminals used to commit horrific atrocities. I'm pretty sure that Captain America isn't supposed to be a mindless drone that just follows orders, but rather has a strong moral compass and does what he thinks is right, and that comment is just the complete opposite and antithesis of what he should be representing. Also worth pointing out that he says that to defend SHIELD, and is later proven wrong by Tony Stark, who was right all along. His faith is shown to be misplaced. What do you think Steve is excusing? Because if it's not an excuse, linking his comment to Nazi war criminals is a stretch. The intent seems to be to show his background as a soldier, in which chain of command is important, as contrasted with Tony's mindset, along with giving him a minor character arc of learning to question his new status quo. I agree that he isn't normally an unthinking drone, but he is not presented as such in the movie. Remember, Steve is still getting used to his new time and how the world now works, so for most of the movie he's forced to function on assumptions. As soon as he finds out about SHEILD using Hydra tech, he takes charge and demands change, just as he does in later movies when he finds out they are run by Hydra, or when Tony is hunting down Bucky for crimes he wasn't responsible for.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:10
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The body count for the Battle of NY is 74. Entire buildings are leveled, but I guess it must have been after hours. Some of that late evening New York sunshine, you know how it is.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:12
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Like, immediately after that scene he goes to investigate what shield is hiding and then after the hawkeye attack/hulk fight cap ditches fury to go field the avengers as their own team
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Mar 9, 2018 19:14
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Phylodox posted:You’re projecting an awful lot into the quote. Divorced from any other context, simply following orders isn’t exclusive to Nazis. Soldiers follow orders. In the context of the scene he’s chastising Tony for working at cross-purposes with SHIELD, who are ostensibly on their side, in the face of an imminent disaster. Steve is lost in time, and retreating into a comfortable position; that of a soldier following orders. No, that’s not really his style, which is why he investigates and eventually realizes Tony was right. Again, this isn't a documentary. They could have rewritten that dialogue a hundred different ways, but still wrote in that line. Soldiers "just following orders" has some pretty damning associations in history, and the writers should know that. Saying "Well, He's just a soldier so it's ok" doesn't excuse that. And again, the movie shows this to be a seriously dumb stance, because he's proven wrong anyways. Fangz posted:The avengers finally coming together to fight together, combination attacks and all, is clearly intended to be the triumphant climax of the film. Showing people dying would subvert the emotional point of that moment and make it seem in crazily bad taste. site posted:And needing to see bodies is dumb this isn't the snyderverse But no one is saying that. Literally no one said this.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:16
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Aphrodite posted:The body count for the Battle of NY is 74. Again, who cares? That body count is according to Civil War, a movie that's pretty openly arguing that body count doesn't matter. That even if superheroes do their job and save as many people as they possibly can, even if they're fantastically, impossibly good at their jobs...people still die. And that every single one of those deaths matter. It wasn't 74 deaths that resulted in the Avengers nearly destroying themselves. It was three people, Zemo's family. It was two people, Howard and Maria Stark. It was T'Chakka. It was Peggy Carter. It was Miriam Sharpe's son. McCloud posted:Again, this isn't a documentary. They could have rewritten that dialogue a hundred different ways, but still wrote in that line. Soldiers "just following orders" has some pretty damning associations in history, and the writers should know that. Saying "Well, He's just a soldier so it's ok" doesn't excuse that. You're moving the goalposts. A soldier saying "We should just follow orders" isn't the same as a Nazi saying "I was just following orders. There are orders of magnitude of difference there. Steve playing the good soldier and following orders isn't good, it isn't portrayed as good, and in the end he doesn't follow through on that. But you jumped straight to Godwin territory. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 19:17
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McCloud posted:But no one is saying that. Literally no one said this. McCloud posted:and they didn't want to have any actual people die but still wanted to portray the idea of collateral damage so they had a bunch of cars explode instead.. just shoddy. Sure looks like you are literally saying that And shock, in the military following orders is something you're pretty heavily trained to want to do if you don't want to get court martialed site fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 19:23
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McCloud posted:Again, this isn't a documentary. They could have rewritten that dialogue a hundred different ways, but still wrote in that line. Soldiers "just following orders" has some pretty damning associations in history, and the writers should know that. Saying "Well, He's just a soldier so it's ok" doesn't excuse that. Your point here seems to be "it bothers me because I really want it to." Does he even say the actual line "just following orders" or is it a paraphrase? The context of the line as I'm understanding it, having not seen the movie in a long while, has nothing to do with Nazis, or excusing atrocities, or anything. The concept of soldiers having orders is not some irrevocably tainted concept in the mind of the public. McCloud posted:But no one is saying that. Literally no one said this. Then what the hell are you saying? You've brought up the dumb car thing multiple times, dude.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:25
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Arist posted:Does he even say the actual line "just following orders" or is it a paraphrase? He says "We have orders, we should follow them." This is in response to finding out Tony is hacking into SHIELD's database, ostensibly sabotaging their ally against Loki.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:27
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The whole point of Tony and Cap's interactions in the film is that neither recently-unfrozen Steve's naive view of Shield as the good guys who can be trusted nor Tony's arrogant desire to do everything himself because he's the best and everyone else sucks is quite right, and they end up meeting in the middle and working as a team. Middle schoolers got this.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:31
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Phylodox posted:He says "We have orders, we should follow them." This is in response to finding out Tony is hacking into SHIELD's database, ostensibly sabotaging their ally against Loki. Then that's not really related at all to the phrase in the context he was suggesting??? Like, Cap's basically just telling everyone to wait on their asses for the moment, trying to bring the Nuremburg defense into this is a huge loving reach.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:31
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In the end though Cap is a nazi, so nice foreshadowing Joss.
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Mar 9, 2018 19:34
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Arist posted:Then that's not really related at all to the phrase in the context he was suggesting??? Like, Cap's basically just telling everyone to wait on their asses for the moment, trying to bring the Nuremburg defense into this is a huge loving reach. ACTUALLY following fury's order to find the tessaract is the same as pushing Jewish people into gas chambers
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Mar 9, 2018 19:35
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LoL, 74 people died in an invasion that leveled buildings. It was literally Space 9/11. Try adding two zeros.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:34
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Black Panther opens with 22.7 million on its first day in China, the third best MCU opening day behind Civil War and Age of Ultron.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:05
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So it's pretty much guaranteed to make over a billion dollars. I have this picture of Kevin Feige and disney executives swimming in vault of money, scrooge mcduck style.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:31
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Apparently it’s expected to drop like a rock though as I’ve seen the reviews and word of mouth are among the lowest of any Marvel movie in China. https://twitter.com/chinaboxoffice/status/972128749448818688?s=21
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Mar 9, 2018 21:42
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I wonder why that could be.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:44
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Lurdiak posted:I wonder why that could be. It will forever be a mystery.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:45
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X-O posted:It will forever be a mystery. 
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Mar 9, 2018 21:57
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Tbh when I read that post saying it made 22 mil my first reaction was I'm surprised it made that much
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Mar 9, 2018 22:00
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I'm somewhat ambivalent about your gif habit but I just wanna say this one is really loving good
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Mar 9, 2018 22:05
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I know some of it will be the blatant and virulent racism of China, which borders on our own in the U.S. but with the added snag of waaaay more cultural homogeneity, but I wonder if some will also be due to its message that being a weirdo hermit kingdom that's only interested in its own self enrichment is a bad thing.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:32
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