|
PMush Perfect posted:FR: Give Demigods +8 Invocations.
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:I also personally found demigods more appealing when their stats were chei lite rather than a single one being sky high. They absolutely need an aptitude boost though. Same with mummies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:It's only a single one being sky high if you choose to level their stats that way... Yeah, but they lost 4 stat points in order to let/make you do that. Give them sid/2 back instead of their extra choice/3 and I might agree. Or they could even have sid/1 and no choice levels at all! I really do wish they had +0 across the board, and -1 xp instead of -2. Quicker ability to adapt to their tools would be good. Slow growth at everything is unfun, and makes me always feel like I need to be super optimal and never put a foot wrong when skilling - whether that's true or not, it's how I feel when playing such races. These Dg religion gimmicks make me sad though, the species is fundamentally fine and elegant as is. Trog, Mu*, Dg are all interesting takes on removing part of the game for power and ease of learning. *lies lies lies
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 22:28
|
|
|
I feel stat spreads are really misleading because HP is just vastly more important than any of the others. Like with -1 apts you just have to put ~20% more xp into things, while with HP you just die more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 22:37
|
|
|
rchandra posted:Yeah, but they lost 4 stat points in order to let/make you do that. rchandra posted:These Dg religion gimmicks make me sad though, the species is fundamentally fine and elegant as is. Irony Be My Shield posted:I feel stat spreads are really misleading because HP is just vastly more important than any of the others. Like with -1 apts you just have to put ~20% more xp into things, while with HP you just die more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 23:01
|
|
|
rchandra posted:Or they could even have sid/1 and no choice levels at all! I'd play some test games of that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 23:46
|
|
|
I'd much rather demigods get better apts and character xp (hell I'd be fine with the apts if they had human xp gain) than giving them a demonspawn style ability roulette system. e: for the record I've played demigods like, twice because they just have way too many drawbacks for their moderate at best advantages.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 00:08
|
|
|
I kinda love the idea of self-worship stuff but there does seem to be a cohort of “please don’t make this boring andbad race interesting or good, I like the challenge and also hate myself”. so I like the “rename them to robots” idea and then demigod can denote an actual cool race with a crazy religion gimmick
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 01:04
|
|
|
seriously just reflavor demigods as 'constructs' to fit their lack of worship and explain the boosted stats and then let something actually fun happen with the demigod name
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 01:13
|
|
|
it's not boring to have less options. more stuff is not always better, when you have really loving strong options like you do with many gods it makes your decision making less varied.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:it's not boring to have less options
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
I mean my position is, granted, not really normal because I've played this game a fuckton but once you've spent some time speedrunning with the busted stuff because it's so powerful that even when you're playing like an idiot on purpose for time's sake you can still get away with it, it kinda makes it feel pointless. even though I don't really play all that seriously anymore. like, when people talk about casters being bad in comparison to melee... it's not so much that casting is weak, but that melee+strong god is so so good and so so simple. when you have that option taken away so many spells start to look a lot more enticing, and then you have stats to use them more easily while wearing armor too! it's a whole different kind of decision making, makes it feel like a very different game. demigods are cool.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 01:23
|
|
|
Yeah I think there is a pretty fundamental issue with gods as they're implemented in this game. The idea of roguelikes is there's replayability because you get different stuff each time and you have to adapt to it, but there are a bunch of massively powerful gods that you can always take and lean on as your main way to win difficult fights for the entire game. It is a choice, but it's basically the same choice every game. Dg's design means you have to adapt to and use the books you find to replace the utility you'd otherwise gain from a god. Good stats and flat apts allow you to pick up whatever schools you want. Power level is a separate issue, but if you give a Dg elementalist a try I think you'll find they're not really that weak.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:05
|
|
|
theyre boring
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:08
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah I think there is a pretty fundamental issue with gods as they're implemented in this game. The idea of roguelikes is there's replayability because you get different stuff each time and you have to adapt to it, but there are a bunch of massively powerful gods that you can always take and lean on as your main way to win difficult fights for the entire game. It is a choice, but it's basically the same choice every game. I've played DgAE and I've played TeAE^Veh and it's like being a guy rubbing wool socks on a carpet versus being loving Zeus. I agree with IronicDongz that Dg mostly works as a concept but they could use a bit of an apt boost to be able to take advantage of their stats and what floorgod provides.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
Tollymain posted:theyre boring High elves were also voted back in unchanged.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:38
|
|
|
I like demigods as they are. I'm totally down for changing their name and doing something else with the idea of a demigod though. Recruiting uniques or something would be a cool gimmick. The ambrosia idea is cool too. Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah I think there is a pretty fundamental issue with gods as they're implemented in this game. The idea of roguelikes is there's replayability because you get different stuff each time and you have to adapt to it, but there are a bunch of massively powerful gods that you can always take and lean on as your main way to win difficult fights for the entire game. It is a choice, but it's basically the same choice every game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:57
|
|
|
remove the summon xp penalty
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 03:19
|
|
|
Floodkiller posted:High elves were also voted back in unchanged. high elves have things they're good at Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I'd be down with only guaranteeing 9 altars or something instead of all of them, if that'd help. If this is done I feel that it'd be important to ensure that at least 1 of Oka/Trog's altars spawns and 1 of Kiku/Vehumet/Sif's. Tollymain fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:03
|
|
|
i like the simplicity of demigod's design, but the xp penalties are kind of weird
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:08
|
|
|
bring back Grey Elves, maybe I can finally remember what Glamour does
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:20
|
|
|
I get why demigods have an xp modifier but I'd be okay with removing xp modifiers as a whole as it's a poorly communicated relic of D&D that apart from demigods is always -1, 0, or 1.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:21
|
|
|
I don’t like limiting god choice, because people being unable to stop themselves from picking the best choice of all things forever is a player issue, not a game issue. What I’m saying is that you should stop and consume all the purple on every run
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:29
|
|
|
im perfectly ok with the elves being the game's "basically humans but with actual strong/weak apts"
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:33
|
|
|
GeneX posted:I don’t like limiting god choice, because people being unable to stop themselves from picking the best choice of all things forever is a player issue, not a game issue. agreed on the player issue part and also the eating of purple
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:34
|
|
|
If you're just going to change the apts and xp gain, they just become humans with higher stats and without the ability to worship a god, which is still boring imo. I won with a demigod a while back and don't have any plans to play one ever again at this point because they are so much more boring than any other race. Modified apts/xp won't change that for me. They need something to make them worth playing. The self-worship idea is worth exploring. I like the idea of a construct race that can't worship a god, though. Could be interesting depending on how they are implemented.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:51
|
|
|
All joking aside, I do think keeping (and renaming) current demigods as a challenge race with some minor changes is a good idea, people do appreciate it and versatility + stats in exchange for godlessness and aptitude challenge is a niche nothing else really fits But the self-worship thing could be a neat racial gimmick for a new race, whether it’s random what you get, you choose it yourself (and maybe mildly anger the god whose domain you’re usurping), or whatever. No other race really plays with gods like that (the closest is probably orcs getting to become evil jesus), and it’s got a lot of interesting design space.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 04:59
|
|
|
GeneX posted:I don’t like limiting god choice, because people being unable to stop themselves from picking the best choice of all things forever is a player issue, not a game issue. a). you feel pressed to try your hardest to win(due to the pressures the game puts on you to try and make you lose), and b). trying your hardest to win is not horribly unfun if I need to stop myself from using strong stuff in order for the game to be tough... that's just not as fun as the feeling of using everything available to scrounge up a win against all odds. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Mar 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 05:22
|
|
|
as an aside, let me put something forward: if we take it as a given that really really strong combos should exist as a crutch for new players, aka the "don't nerf trog so new players can get their 1st win more easily" argument(which I'm not totally convinced of but many are), the inverse of that should also apply: weak species/combos should also exist as a challenge for veteran players.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 05:27
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:as an aside, let me put something forward: if we take it as a given that really really strong combos should exist as a crutch for new players, aka the "don't nerf trog so new players can get their 1st win more easily" argument(which I'm not totally convinced of but many are), the inverse of that should also apply: weak species/combos should also exist as a challenge for veteran players.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 05:34
|
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:seriously just reflavor demigods as 'constructs' to fit their lack of worship and explain the boosted stats and then let something actually fun happen with the demigod name please
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:imposing limitations on the player is the heart of game design and roguelikes are most fun when both ... yeah i want to make this post an empty-quote but i double post too much already so, im going to use it to collect demigod suggestions in one place for reference - leave demigods as-is - improve demigod apts to human levels or human+1 - give demigods a boosted weapon skill at xl 1and 2 strongly boosted skills at xl 7 and 14 - turn demigods into some kind of construct (overlap w gargoyles?) - give demigods a randomly chosen divine heritage - give demigods their own cult of sorts that empowers them or something similar - give demigods the ability to usurp gods' powers by defiling their altars or something similar - give demigods the ability to drink ambrosia without confusion, possibly with boosted benefits personal opinion: one can roughly duplicate the demigod experience by playing a human with an atheist conduct right now. hell, if humans were given the ability to choose where to allocate all their stat ups it wouldn't break them, so why not do that
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 06:09
|
|
|
GeneX posted:I don’t like limiting god choice, because people being unable to stop themselves from picking the best choice of all things forever is a player issue, not a game issue. It's not so much that I don't trust the player not to pick the best one every time, it's that sometimes it might be interesting to be forced to choose among a few options. Maybe you've never answered the question of whether nemelex or kiku is more appropriate for your build before. I think it could be cool. Trog would always be available by picking Be.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 06:28
|
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:seriously just reflavor demigods as 'constructs' to fit their lack of worship and explain the boosted stats and then let something actually fun happen with the demigod name This please. I like this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 07:26
|
|
|
Tollymain posted:... yeah i want to make this post an empty-quote but i double post too much already so, im going to use it to collect demigod suggestions in one place for reference cool and good options - give demigods a boosted weapon skill at xl 1and 2 strongly boosted skills at xl 7 and 14 Sounds interesting and fun to play with if maybe OP. - give demigods the ability to drink ambrosia without confusion, possibly with boosted benefits Cool and flavorful without being too game-breaking. no strong opinions - give demigods their own cult of sorts that empowers them or something similar - give demigods the ability to usurp gods' powers by defiling their altars or something similar Defiling altars to grow the power of their self-cult sounds really neat, but only if you can come up with a good concept for the cult that doesn't totally change demigods around. Or... - turn demigods into some kind of construct (overlap w gargoyles?) No point in doing this immediately, but I'd support moving them over if a new actually god-flavored race is added (especially one using the above ideas). big thumbs down - improve demigod apts to human levels or human+ Just making them flat across-the-board stronger wouldn't do much for the demigodlikers who already play them and think they're good, and wouldn't make them more interesting for the players who don't - give demigods a randomly chosen divine heritage Giving them religious powers based on the pre-existing crawlgods seems pretty silly and against the race's concept. Guaranteed earlygame faded altar does mostly the same thing but better and for more races.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 07:38
|
|
|
yeah my personal preferences are the boosted skills, ambrosia, and demigod apts being upped to human levels across the board
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 08:22
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's not so much that I don't trust the player not to pick the best one every time, it's that sometimes it might be interesting to be forced to choose among a few options. Maybe you've never answered the question of whether nemelex or kiku is more appropriate for your build before. I think it could be cool. Do not limit god spawns. Do not make gods rng. That sounds awful to me to play. EDIT: Of my 13 full rune wins, seven have been Veh or Trog/Oka to TSO (4 and 3). I went into all the them planning those because its what I wanted to play. I do use the same gods a lot, but that is because I find Veh blaster casters fun as hell. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Mar 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 09:29
|
|
|
Totally down for Jiyva to be one of the gods, though I admit I really liked Jiyva was great as a god of "remove annoying things" and a lot of those annoying things are gone now for everyone. I think gods not quite being predetermined is kinda part of their thing, as opposed to race or background. You never choose a different god because you find their altar really early? I've had some pretty fun games where I use a god I wouldn't normally because I can get a bunch of piety starting at D:2. My idea was just a thought as to how you might have more of that. You could increase the guaranteed range to D:12 or something also, so you can still get whoever but it's more of a trade-off. I think it might end up cool.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 09:33
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You never choose a different god because you find their altar really early
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 09:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
RPATDO_LAMD posted:cool and good options
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 09:37
|
|