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Ah, then Misty not being around is still easily explained with "She's busy in rehab with her kickass robot arm".
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Mar 12, 2018 19:49
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She also works for a different precinct.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:58
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Maybe they're trying to dial down the crossover characters in general after Claire was on every show.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:35
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cosmicjim posted:I thought Marvel was making great strides because of Luke Cage and Black Panther. You don't need to apologise. Just because this person is 'offended', doesn't mean they're right. And they're not right. Picking apart every show that doesn't include every aspect of their extremely specific definition of diversity is not progress. It's nitpicking that they think they can get away with and it distracts from real issues, which they care about so much they're spending all their time criticizing a superhero show (And not just any show, one that is actually progressive and makes a loving effort) I don't think anyone should apologise just because someone brings up issues like race and feminism and they're worried about being insensitive. Because like I said, they're not right by default.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:33
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I think it's right to want more, but it's a bit silly to expect every single show or movie or piece of media to represent you specifically. A piece of media isn't automatically bad because it isn't progressive, or because it's only progressive w/r/t some communities. It's bad if it's badly written and badly made in general, or if it's going out of its way to dunk on a marginalized community. There's nothing wrong w/ complaining a bit if you expected more out of the show, but getting aggressive over it is a bit much imo. I can't speak to how frustrating it is for women of colour to not see themselves enough in media, but for my own experience as a gay woman I'm not going to get my panties in a twist if a show doesn't have a lesbian in it, or if the lesbian in it isn't prominent enough. e: and marvel netflix has been doing pretty good at making strides to represent more communities. idk I just think time isn't well spent complaining that Jessica Jones doesn't have enough prominent women of colour characters, personally, and that time would be better spent lobbying for them to make a show about misty knight or something. but again i'm not a person of colour so I can't really speak to just how frustrating not being represented enough is. but idk if a show about a white lady and her personal issues is the right show to go into expecting that representation to be front and centre. esperterra fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:43
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esperterra posted:I think it's right to want more, but it's a bit silly to expect every single show or movie or piece of media to represent you specifically. A piece of media isn't automatically bad because it isn't progressive, or because it's only progressive w/r/t some communities. It's bad if it's badly written and badly made in general, or if it's going out of its way to dunk on a marginalized community. Okay so first, I'm not being aggressive. If I am, you'll know it. Trust. That's hosed up in itself, because every time a black person speaks out they're the angry black trope. I get that tone is hard to get online, but maybe take a step back and think about why calling a black person aggressive when talking about intersectionality and misogynoir is a really bad look. Second, the problem is that the show openly tries to bank on it's feminist aspect, down to spending money promoting the fact that they had all women directors this season. If your show is promoting the idea that it's feminist, if it's banking on feminists to watch, and your feminism is not intersectional, it's meaningless. There's been two seasons now where woc are all props or plot devices CityMidnightJunky posted:You don't need to apologise. Just because this person is 'offended', doesn't mean they're right. I also take some issue with the idea that "just because a poc says something is messed up, doesn't mean they're correct" because hey, we're the ones who experience racism/misogynoir. So chances are we know a lot more about it than you do. Completely disregarding a poc like this is just another way to shut us down. You should trust a poc and give us the benefit of the doubt, that as the people who experience it on the daily, we actually know what they're talking about. I made my "posting career" on educating people about racism and misogynoir. I have been posting for over a decade. I think I have well earned the benefit of the doubt and not to be dismissed outright just because it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:08
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People are very quick to make things about themselves or take things personally these days, I've noticed. A fact isn't always a personal attack, but we have all treated at least one fact as such at some point in our lives. People also love to go on tangents, thanks for reading mine!
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Mar 12, 2018 22:18
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I really didn't mean you specifically with my aggression comment, but that's on me for not being more specific about it being a general statement of people (of any race, identity, etc) getting (imo) too worked up over representation in some forms of media. So I'm sorry for being too vague and making you think I meant you.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:27
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You seem aggressive because every rebuttal’s is how about how hosed up we or what we said is. I’m not saying you are wrong, but it carries an aggressive tone.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:28
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It’s not really complaining to notice that there is basically one black character on the show this season, or to point out how strange that is both in terms of the show’s setting (a city where there is more than one black person) or its attempt to position itself as philosophically and practically interested in issues of justice (hiring only female directors, presumably because hollywood/the Vancouver circuit is hostile to women).
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Mar 12, 2018 22:37
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cosmicjim posted:You seem aggressive because every rebuttal’s is how about how hosed up we or what we said is. I’m not saying you are wrong, but it carries an aggressive tone. I'm pointing that poo poo out so you can be aware of it in the future, dude. I'm trying to actually help you understand the complexity of these topics. My tone comes off as aggressive because you are reading it aggressive. I have actually been trying to be passive as gently caress on purpose. This is me with the kid gloves on dude.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:47
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Koalas March posted:I'm pointing that poo poo out so you can be aware of it in the future, dude. I'm trying to actually help you understand the complexity of these topics. And you don't understand why you seem aggressive. I just tried to clarify this mystery to you.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:50
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Tone arguments are garbage but so is "I'm not being aggressive right now my dude, just condescending"
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Mar 12, 2018 22:54
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dont even fink about it posted:Tone arguments are garbage but so is "I'm not being aggressive right now my dude, just condescending" I think it comes off that way because I have to pick and choose my words very carefully. I mean, I get it, no one likes being told they're being "problematic" or whatever but at the same time I'm not gonna avoid the issue or dance around it. If y'all think I can point out the same poo poo in a more palatable way without cooning it up let me know. I don't really know a nicer way to say that calling a black person aggressive invokes a racist trope than that. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 23:07
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To get on Koala March's side, just because you guys don't see anything wrong with something, doesn't mean that it's okay. Representation of people of color in media is a big deal to people of color. Just being on screen isn't enough and making that known is a way to get better characters later on.
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Mar 12, 2018 23:29
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In all honesty, I would like the discussion to rise above the level of a clearly irritated-at-the-world diversity panelist who hasn't realized that they are going off on people who would like to be allies instead of like, tenth down on the enemies list or something. For starters, recommend some reading on intersectionality, point out shows and movies that are doing it better than JJ, and so on. For my part, I've noticed that the entertainment industry has been really slow to pick up on minority-focused properties, even though they consistently do really well even when the finished film is a tad mediocre. So if I had to put it into words, I think POC/minorities would probably like a movie that talks about minority issues with as much confidence as say, The Dark Knight talks about the nuances of neoconservatism, police states, and rich white manchildren problems. Not sure we have that movie or show yet. I always feel like I'm watching something a little noticeably under-budget, a little tongue-in-cheek, and so on. Black Panther comes close, but also proves that minority issues can fall neatly into Marvel's brand of enjoyable pablum, which is maybe not where we need them to go to achieve real significance. But #2 superhero movie of all time that deals primarily with American race issues is getting there.
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Mar 12, 2018 23:44
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nvmBust Rodd posted:Lots of white dudes ITT telling a black woman to calm down about racism in a show about feminism the racism show will be out on june 22 and then we will tell esperterra to go pound sand re:lady chat bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 23:47
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Lots of white dudes ITT telling a black woman to calm down about racism in a show about feminism Seems... bad
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Mar 12, 2018 23:59
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Are there?
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Mar 13, 2018 00:18
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So three months and change until the next 13-episode show overstays its welcome and hits another flight of stairs face first on each and every step. 4/10, would binge again so I can complain online with specific story beats.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:31
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esperterra posted:e: and marvel netflix has been doing pretty good at making strides to represent more communities. idk I just think time isn't well spent complaining that Jessica Jones doesn't have enough prominent women of colour characters, personally, and that time would be better spent lobbying for them to make a show about misty knight or something. but again i'm not a person of colour so I can't really speak to just how frustrating not being represented enough is. but idk if a show about a white lady and her personal issues is the right show to go into expecting that representation to be front and centre. Feminism and feminist works of art have a pretty long history of just being about white feminists and their white problems. Afaik, there are really only two big factors that alter that trend. One is when the oppression of women of color can be used to further the goals of a white feminist (for example, white women's suffrage groups were willing to work with black organizations, but their talk of solidarity often dried up when people wanted to talk about how Jim Crow also stood in the way of black women voting). The other is when the feminist is herself a woman of color. Woc have been talking very publicly about this problem for at least 40 years, so the fact that an otherwise insightful show about women has yet again almost completely ignored representing woc is, as they say, problematic. Girls, Big Little Lies, and JJ are all recent examples. I don't mean to lecture at you or anything; I just want to explain why a show that wants to call itself feminist shouldn't get a pass on representation just because other MCU titles have people of color. I like JJ a lot (second season, too), but it's a big oversight and KM isn't saying anything unfair. Non-intersectional feminism is necessarily blind to the experiences of a lot of women. dont even fink about it posted:For starters, recommend some reading on intersectionality, point out shows and movies that are doing it better than JJ, and so on. Here's a Radiolab episode about figure skater Surya Bonaly, which doesn't do the greatest job of calling racism/sexism by their names, but which is a good example of poo poo that only a woman of color would have to deal with.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:42
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JawKnee posted:Are there? Yes there are.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:43
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AtraMorS posted:You're talking about the show in the context of the MCU. KM is talking about it in the context of feminism, so pointing to Luke Cage or Black Panther or whatever doesn't strike me as a response to her criticism. A Misty Knight show could definitely be fun and interesting, but it wouldn't fix the problems in JJ. I understand the complaint in the context of the show touting its feminism, for sure. I was just speaking in the context of representation in media and whether it should be a given that a piece of media showcases every gender or race or lifestyle, etc. Again my thoughts were kind of a general rambling brought on by the discussion in the thread and I should have worded it in a less vague manner. Wasn't trying to call KM out or anything, just using her posts as a jumping off point for my own thoughts. Really should have prefaced the post with something to clarify. The woes of wake and bake posting. As for the feminism of the show I personally think JJ isn't very feminist beyond being primarily about a woman who has been abused, and that its feminism has never been strong so I kind of ignore the show runner touting the message off season. Rosenberg isn't a very good writer and has never been from what I've seen of her past work, so I personally don't go into JJ expecting anything deep or meaningful out of the show anyway. That said, I won't begrudge anyone for taking Rosenberg and her team at their word and expecting more out of the show than I did, or expecting a less narrow view of feminism.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:07
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I kind of enjoyed how literally every character in the show kept making horrible decisions for terrible reasons. Hogarth is awesome but her story had very little to do with the plot. Batshit crazy Trish was fun but I'm a bit about what they did with her character - I enjoyed her relationship with JJ in S1. As someone with family members with severe mental issues I was pretty happy they didn't have JJ put down her mom in the end. Too many shows and movies still treat mentally ill people as villains, and I know I thought JJ S2 did a decent job of making her mom sympathetic while still acknowledging her issues and how they affect everyone around her. Biggest problem with the season was the lack of Kilgrave, sometimes bad writing, and that the plot didn't really get going until the last third. Best part was the show completely ignoring the events of the Defenders, such as JJ and friends murdering dozens of people and leveling a scyscraper. I wish I could forget it too.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:13
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I'm rewatching season 1 of Jessica Jones cause gently caress it I have the flu and : 1) I see the criticisms of the pacing, sure, but over all it's waaaaaaaaaay better than season 2. This is great binge watching. 2) Holy poo poo is Simpson terrible. When you watch it the first time yeah he's always an rear end in a top hat but maybe you aren't thinking things through and gently caress he's terrible.
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Mar 13, 2018 04:13
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Renoistic posted:I kind of enjoyed how literally every character in the show kept making horrible decisions for terrible reasons. Hogarth is awesome but her story had very little to do with the plot. Batshit crazy Trish was fun but I'm a bit about what they did with her character - I enjoyed her relationship with JJ in S1. I too, like it when shows blow off tons of world-building and minor, minor, growth of a character. Why disbelieve a dude has super powers when you literally fought undead ninjas who literally used magic? It also shows that using some kind of ally is a good idea when poo poo hits the fan, which is also conveniently ignored.
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Mar 13, 2018 04:16
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Also I started watching it in Chinese to brush up and the translation is super weird or I got the good good flu medicine. Today's episode is brought to you by the letter 對。
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Mar 13, 2018 05:33
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MrJacobs posted:I too, like it when shows blow off tons of world-building and minor, minor, growth of a character. Why disbelieve a dude has super powers when you literally fought undead ninjas who literally used magic? It also shows that using some kind of ally is a good idea when poo poo hits the fan, which is also conveniently ignored. That show was so bad I'd rather have JJ be self contained. She can have character growth on her own show.
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Mar 13, 2018 06:36
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business hammocks posted:I never watched the Defenders, but I assume there’s a depressing reason he never got back with Jessica. She murdered his wife? The entire flashback episode was unneeded (Just like altered carbon or just like any other TV show w/ a full FB ep). There was more interest and drama in Malcolm talking to his college ex and Hogarth talking in the car than entire other episodes. Did anyone else think Trish was really gonna die?
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Mar 13, 2018 07:22
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Golden Bee posted:Did anyone else think Trish was really gonna die? The thought did cross my mind, yeah.
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Mar 13, 2018 07:26
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As a not-black woman I think that my opinion about how black women should be represented in media isn't important
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Mar 13, 2018 07:42
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Koalas March posted:Feminism without intersectionality is worthless hth Unless we're only talking about diverse representation, it's misguided to say the show fails to be intersectional, considering it first needs to take any political stance at all beyond "Murdering is bad." As someone who likes both seasons, Jessica Jones deals with female issues, but its label as feminist is just marketing. It isn't interested in dealing seriously with the issues it raises, because it's exploitative pulp genre at its core. Black Panther is the same way, just swap feminism for black liberation. What the show does do well is use its pulp-noir aesthetic to critique the dominant comic book superhero paradigm, and their complete inability to examine what it actually means to be an ethical hero, nevermind a super one. Jessica has superpowers, but she is explicitly an underclass former orphan, who functions in society by illegally working in the same place she lives. Her male interest in both seasons are convicts. The fantastical trials and tribulations she undergoes are externalizations of real world subjective trauma. Kilgrave was an example of this. The show even depicted his power with some sympathy, his power causing him to be completely maladjusted and isolated from everybody. He has all the characteristics and impulses of an underdeveloped man child. The ridiculous right wing fantasy of powerful and just individuals is embodied in Trish, who as a rich white woman with powerful social relations, berates Jessica for not imposing her personal brand of justice on the world. Through this fetishization of street violence, she becomes increasingly unhinged, and forces her way into an unproven experimental procedure. Jessica's mentally ill mother openly fantasizes about her and Jessica romantically diving into war zones and ends up ignobly shot in the head with the actual legacy of being an impulsive killer. Hogarth stands for realistic power amidst the superhero critique. The only real threat to her is a disease like ALS, which she embraces the superhero fantasy for a cure. Through her accumulation of wealth and power, she tries to exploit the homeless and criminal (Coercion through the power of the state), but ends up being the exploited one. She seeks to exact her own brand of justice, and she is able to keep her hands clean, easily getting the criminal killed and the homeless woman arrested. The emotional damage she suffered is worth destroying two lives of the underclass who pose zero threat to her. MrJacobs posted:I too, like it when shows blow off tons of world-building and minor, minor, growth of a character. Why disbelieve a dude has super powers when you literally fought undead ninjas who literally used magic? It also shows that using some kind of ally is a good idea when poo poo hits the fan, which is also conveniently ignored. Crossovers are marketing gimmicks and the only right choice is to completely ignore it. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 07:45
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Golden Bee posted:The entire flashback episode was unneeded (Just like altered carbon or just like any other TV show w/ a full FB ep). Supposedly in the first week or two a bunch of people weren't finishing Altered Carbon and were stopping their binge a bit past half-way. And I think ep7 was the dead-on-arrival flashback that was 10-15 minutes longer than any other episode. Perhaps that wasn't a coincidence. The college scene was a cheap way to retcon him into being a super-genius and emotionally manipulative. They probably mentioned his full-ride scholarship during the not-just-a-junkie reveal back in S1, but can you think of anything else that scene was set out to accomplish? Given how horribly she was written for the entire loving season? I was hoping she'd at least get swept away into a very, very, very, very long coma so she'd stop existing beyond a heart monitor beep. But preferably dead. And cremated. And scattered out of the plot forever.
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Mar 13, 2018 08:02
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I guess got cut up but I meant to say that the Malcolm scene(s) were much more affecting than most of everything else around it. The fact he dealt with his consequences in discrete scenes instead of entire episodes give them a stronger impact. I think it’s realistic that nobody really cared that much about the innocent mentally retarded guy still imprisoned for murder. Sorry man!
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Mar 13, 2018 08:14
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Renoistic posted:As someone with family members with severe mental issues I was pretty happy they didn't have JJ put down her mom in the end. Too many shows and movies still treat mentally ill people as villains, and I know I thought JJ S2 did a decent job of making her mom sympathetic while still acknowledging her issues and how they affect everyone around her. I dunno, her character came across to me as a huge rear end in a top hat, and not because of being mentally ill. Like how she is right in telling Jessica that the accident wasn't her fault, but then blames the dad for not letting her drive, since she was such a great driver that she almost got into TWO crashes during the last episode. Just off the top of my head, she also doesn't seem to care that the ashes of her son are in a cardboard box, knows she is a danger to everyone but keeps being more concerned about staying free and that her precious Karl doesn't pay for his crimes, keeps disregarding her daughter's pleas to stop worsening her situation, blames her victims for her actions... She was every bit as controlling as Kilgrave, but instead of pheromones, she did it by using her position as Jessica's mom and last family member, along with her superior strenght to force her bit by bit to exhaust her options so in the end the only viable way Jessica can keep her relationship with her is by aiding her and be fugitives together. She did gain some sympathy from me in the end when she went to the fair and rode the ferris wheel instead of running away, finally realizing what she was doing to Jessica: force her to be an outlaw, probably ending with the both of them dead. I guess I'd like her more if there were more scenes like when Jessica said she might puke all over her, and she responds that it's okay, since she was a barfy baby  Golden Bee posted:Did anyone else think Trish was really gonna die? I did, for a moment, when I realized that Trish's mom and Jessica were talking in front of the morgue. For S3, I wish that it devotes time to showing Trish trying to be the hero that she always pushed Jessica to be, and finds out that it isn't as easy as just punching bad guys. Kal-L fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 10:42
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There were a lot of interesting concepts going on in this season, but I think most of them ended up being kind of wasted. I really liked everything that was going on with Malus, for instance - but it felt like the show wasn't interested in actually exploring the implications of giving people superpowers unwillingly, instead rubbing up against the annoyingly simplistic characterisation that Jessica had this season - e.g. powers are bad and they make everyone mentally ill, apparently. I didn't like where they left off with her. Also man the entire Trish storyline was such a goddamn mess. I feel like powers as drug abuse is a concept that has never really worked very well.
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Mar 13, 2018 10:59
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Mid S2E9:
I actually am okay with this season so far. I loved the heck out of Tennant in season one, but I got tired of "now we have him / now we don't," and while the villain is weaker okay maybe I'm not sure who the villain is here other than "all the characters' vices and pasts, some reviewers had me expecting a catastrophe.
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Mar 13, 2018 12:05
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Can someone explain to me the relation between IGH, Killgrave's parents, Luke being experimented on and Reva? For some reason I thought Reva and IGH were connected but now I'm not sure. Also, was Trish called Patsy in Season 1 as often as she is called that in Season 2?
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Mar 13, 2018 12:39
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radlum posted:Can someone explain to me the relation between IGH, Killgrave's parents, Luke being experimented on and Reva? For some reason I thought Reva and IGH were connected but now I'm not sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, I never finished LC, Defenders, or JJS2 because they all suck: Reva was part of the prison experiments in Seagate that created Luke Cage. She was instrumental to the whole thing. At some point she obtained a bunch of video files of other people's similar attempts to make supers, I don't think they were directly connected to Seagate. One of those videos was of Baby Kilgrave. Kilgrave finds out, wants the video, wants Reva dead. Jessica punches her into the next world. I don't think Reva and IGH were directly connected. IGH might have funded/supplied chemical poo poo to the Seagate project but I don't think Reva and like Dr. Karl were directly involved. Trish's mom always calls Trish Patsy, other people less so. Soothing Vapors fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 12:48
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Kal-L posted:I dunno, her character came across to me as a huge rear end in a top hat, and not because of being mentally ill. Like how she is right in telling Jessica that the accident wasn't her fault, but then blames the dad for not letting her drive, since she was such a great driver that she almost got into TWO crashes during the last episode. All antagonists on Jessica Jones equivocate and find excuses to avoid facing the consequences of their choices, while Jessica keeps a laser focus on personal responsibility—and she really only makes errors when it comes to blaming herself. The mother absolutely dodges moral responsibility for her behavior, since Jessica goes after her for a series of premeditated murders that are carefully covered up. That’s completely inconsistent with her mother’s excuse of being in a fugue state when killing, even though we know that also happens.
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Mar 13, 2018 13:00
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