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Hieronymous Alloy posted:https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Faces-Collected-Joseph-Campbell/dp/1577315936 Get that structuralist trash away from me A hex upon it and the millions of dilettante critics it spawned EDIT: I would also point out that Campbell didn't invent a genre-based way of looking at a text. He is explicitly a structuralist.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:16
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Get that structuralist trash away from me Eh, you could argue that "myth / folktale" is a genre of sorts, depending on how one defines "genre." Even to the extent that Campbell's structures are valid, they only apply to one specific type of storyline -- hero quest stories. Like, Little Red Riding Hood doesn't fit.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:26
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I mean the problem with Campbell is that he is a reductionist, an essentialist, and seems to mistake a descriptive analysis for a prescriptive mandate. His entire methodology is to strip cultural narratives to the point he can assert a vague sort of eurocentric ur-text quality to them. This by itself is not particularly bad, and is kind of interesting as a cultural exercise. The problem is that genre fans ever since have taken his work as an excuse to elevate cliche to some sort of holy communion with our cultural heritage.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean the problem with Campbell let's not narrow it down to just the One
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Mar 12, 2018 21:33
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Plenty of works are sexless and never reach the success LOTR did. If you look at most English myths, they were also very sexless, which allowed mass sharing of them in a culture heavily influence by sexual shame. You see the same thing today in the works of Brandon Sanderson--avoiding sex broadens the audience. I doubt there's much more to it than that. Older people enjoy more "mature" fantasies that are only more mature in that sex is not actively avoided. BUT these rarely reach the same level of success because the reader base is split. LOTR would have failed at achieving the feel of a new myth had it not kept it's content roughly in line with the tone of already established mythologies.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:24
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BananaNutkins posted:If you look at most English myths, they were also very sexless, which allowed mass sharing of them in a culture heavily influence by sexual shame. The famously sexless Arthurian myths
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Mar 12, 2018 22:33
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See on one hand you could have a sexless novel; on the other you could have sex scenes written by SF/F authors. I know which one of those options 4/5 doctors recommend.Mel Mudkiper posted:I am not quite sure how someone creates a genre-focused critical method that doesn't end up being a way to justify preference Isn't that what Marxist, Feminist, Queer or really any criticism does, it is designed to justify it's own preferences. The thought wasn't to talk about how the spaceships were built but rather emphasis the importance of the elements that genre fans like, which even then is split into a couple of major camps. ShinsoBEAM! fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 22:49
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:See on one hand you could have a sexless novel; on the other you could have sex scenes written by SF/F authors. I know which one of those options 4/5 doctors recommend.  Or just give me a fade to black if the quality of the sex (whether in a positive or negative fashion) doesn't fill in some relevant detail.
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Mar 12, 2018 23:02
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:See on one hand you could have a sexless novel; on the other you could have sex scenes written by SF/F authors. I know which one of those options 4/5 doctors recommend. There is a difference between a novel being sexual and a novel being sex obsessed. Fiction should recognize people are sexual beings who desire sexual gratification as an inherent part of being human. One of my frustrations with Blackwater is that it seems to wholly ignore that truth. However, that doesn't mean you are speaking honestly to the human experience if your novel is full of hot sex with beautiful women who orgasm constantly. Like, I would say The Witcher novels are as insincere about sexuality as a wholly puritan work. quote:Isn't that what Marxist, Feminist, Queer or really any criticism does, it is designed to justify it's own preferences. If this is what you truly believe I think you have a significantly inaccurate concept of what these sorts of criticism are. What critics have you read? If you think, say, Simone de Beauvoir is using feminism to justify novels she likes, you need to reread Simone de Beauvoir
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Mar 12, 2018 23:28
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Hell I am not sure if Derrida liked anything
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Mar 12, 2018 23:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:
Speak for yourself
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Mar 12, 2018 23:36
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Frankly it's badass when authors who look like the cryptkeeper but with less hair write books about loving nubile women all day long
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Mar 12, 2018 23:47
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A human heart posted:Frankly it's badass when authors who look like the cryptkeeper but with less hair write books about loving nubile women all day long I thought you didn't like David Vann?
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Mar 12, 2018 23:49
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Mel Mudkiper posted:However, that doesn't mean you are speaking honestly to the human experience if your novel is full of hot sex with beautiful women who orgasm constantly. Since this line of discussion started with Lord of the Rings, I'm interested in people's thoughts on the treatment of sexuality in John Boorman's never-filmed script. Boorman's Gimli posted:Galadriel! A mighty piece of stone she is, for a Dwarfish tool to carve. Boorman also gives us Arwen, age 13, having a four-way makeout session with Aragorn, Boromir, and Aragorn's sword. Ick.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:56
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BananaNutkins posted:If you look at most English myths, they were also very sexless, which allowed mass sharing of them in a culture heavily influence by sexual shame. firstly, what the hell are you talking about? what sexless english myths? secondly, much if not most popular medieval literature is absolutely charged with sex and eroticism. christ himself is an erotic figure in some of it. 'sexual shame' is no bar at all to the mass sharing of literature with nakedly erotic themes and elements. also, brandon sanderson doesn't avoid sex in order to broaden his audience, he avoids sex because he's deeply mormon and it has clearly ruined his mind
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Mar 13, 2018 01:36
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If this is what you truly believe I think you have a significantly inaccurate concept of what these sorts of criticism are. This is a dumb as gently caress misreading of ShinsoBeam's point (or I've misread and he's dumb as gently caress), post-structuralist criticism don't justify the critic's preference for a novel, but their preference for the truths they believe the novel reflects. (However, there's the sub-category of the appreciation which is about advocating for a work, but it doesn't get done as much in post-structuralist circles, the art press do it a lot but they're scum and should be ignored like all journalists). Edward Said in Culture and Imperialism isn't justifying how great Kim or the work of Jane Austen is (he takes that mostly for granted) but justifying an argument about how they reflect and/or perpetuate destructive cultural/imperial practices and beliefs.
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Mar 13, 2018 02:35
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fez_machine posted:This is a dumb as gently caress misreading of ShinsoBeam's point (or I've misread and he's dumb as gently caress), post-structuralist criticism don't justify the critic's preference for a novel, but their preference for the truths they believe the novel reflects. (However, there's the sub-category of the appreciation which is about advocating for a work, but it doesn't get done as much in post-structuralist circles, the art press do it a lot but they're scum and should be ignored like all journalists). Yeah homie hate to break it to you but you're agreeing with me here
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Mar 13, 2018 03:10
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chernobyl kinsman posted:firstly, what the hell are you talking about? what sexless english myths? secondly, much if not most popular medieval literature is absolutely charged with sex and eroticism. christ himself is an erotic figure in some of it. 'sexual shame' is no bar at all to the mass sharing of literature with nakedly erotic themes and elements. it sounds like he thinks english culture was repressed victorians for like 800 years and that therefore all english myths are sexless? not a very clear post to be sure
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Mar 13, 2018 04:20
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Like the narrative core of the primary English myth is the hero's wife loving his best friend And of course there is the fact LotR is based off Germanic mythology, not English mythology And then the fact that Germanic mythology is also super down to gently caress
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Mar 13, 2018 04:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Like the narrative core of the primary English myth is the hero's wife loving his best friend Excuse me French myth goddam Normans marching in like they own the place (The English corrollary would be "what to do when your hosts' wife is DTF")
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Mar 13, 2018 04:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Excuse me French myth Look the French get Roland and the English get Arthur, those were the terms of the 100 Years War
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Mar 13, 2018 04:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Excuse me French myth the arthurian mythos is essentially celtic in origin if we're really going to make a thing of it
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Mar 13, 2018 04:36
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Look the French get Roland and the English get Arthur, those were the terms of the 100 Years War chernobyl kinsman posted:the arthurian mythos is essentially celtic in origin if we're really going to make a thing of it Bretonnian >_< Lancelot comes from the French Brettonian Arthurian tradition, Gawaine from the Welsh I did a whole thing on this ! (yes I goldmine my own threads)
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Mar 13, 2018 04:53
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both the bretons the welsh are celts hieronymous
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Mar 13, 2018 05:17
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chernobyl kinsman posted:both the bretons the welsh are celts hieronymous Sure, but "Breton" is more precise
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Mar 13, 2018 05:30
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Calling dark age people living in Brittany 'french' is a pretty wild statement
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Mar 13, 2018 05:35
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It reminds me of all those internet people who were like "video games are art" for years and then suddenly got real mad when feminist theorists went "Ok, we will critique it as art" I'd like to read some critique of those highly praised games, if it's not a problem doing it in the books forum (since I never saw this kind of discussion in Games)  If anyone is willing to, obviously. (or just give me some links)
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Mar 13, 2018 06:05
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ZZZorcerer posted:I'd like to read some critique of those highly praised games, if it's not a problem doing it in the books forum (since I never saw this kind of discussion in Games) Most of what gets called "literary" in video games, is merely the deployment of pathos. Often a game will be highly praised just because it has "feels". (Highly praised game Edith Finch is this, a ham fistedly manipulative middle brow mess) The vast bulk of games don't even begin to approach the standard of high art, let alone a feeling of the sublime, in terms of aesthetics. There are definitely ART games but the execution usually lacks because the difficulty in producing a fully formed complete piece of art in other mediums (except maybe film) is many orders easier to do as an individual. There will never be a Gravity's Rainbow of video games, at least in the near future.
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Mar 13, 2018 11:44
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Finally, a thread where posters can really let loose and seriously discuss videogames on this forum
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Mar 13, 2018 12:26
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It was an example kids not a mandate
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Mar 13, 2018 12:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sure, but "Breton" is more precise yeah but the origins of the myth* itself are (p-)celtic rather than specifically breton or welsh. chretien de troyes' knight of the cart, where the adultery stuff first enters in, is definitely drawing from breton sources, but those sources have strong connections to roughly contemporary and older welsh sources.** so you can't really pin a lot of it down to one 'nationality', it's better imo to just vaguely gesture and say 'celtic' *or at least several strands of it, since its a huge and complicated beast **specifically culwch ac olwen and the preiddeu annwn, among others ZZZorcerer posted:I'd like to read some critique of those highly praised games, if it's not a problem doing it in the books forum (since I never saw this kind of discussion in Games) he's talking about this chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 16:17
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chernobyl kinsman posted:yeah but the origins of the myth* itself are (p-)celtic rather than specifically breton or welsh. chretien de troyes' knight of the cart, where the adultery stuff first enters in, is definitely drawing from breton sources, but those sources have strong connections to roughly contemporary and older welsh sources.** so you can't really pin a lot of it down to one 'nationality', it's better imo to just vaguely gesture and say 'celtic' See this is exactly why I resist the text as history analysis model Mother fuckers going on paragraphs about the cultural origins of the text more than the text
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Mar 13, 2018 16:37
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I can make a really good case for the historical Arthur being a leader of the Gododdin tribe who fought a series of battles along a roughly south by southwest axis through Britain, too, mel why are you so concerned with keeping the text in pure Derridean isolation and examining it devoid fo historical or cultural context why are examinations of that context bad or at least superfluous for you
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Mar 13, 2018 17:05
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you would fragment a rich period of cross-cultural and cross-linguistic contact and exchange into a mutilated corpus of isolated texts which speak to nothing but themselves and the present reader you are an abomination in the sight of God
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Mar 13, 2018 17:08
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chernobyl kinsman posted:I can make a really good case for the historical Arthur being a leader of the Gododdin tribe who fought a series of battles along a roughly south by southwest axis through Britain, too, mel because it gets reactions like this chernobyl kinsman posted:you would fragment a rich period of cross-cultural and cross-linguistic contact and exchange into a mutilated corpus of isolated texts which speak to nothing but themselves and the present reader
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Mar 13, 2018 17:12
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I'll pray for you. namaste
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Mar 13, 2018 17:14
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If this is what you truly believe I think you have a significantly inaccurate concept of what these sorts of criticism are. I meant the preference of the criticism being applied, such as the criticism example you gave assumes that feminism is a correct viewpoint* for the purposes of the critique as it attempts to view the work from that point of view. I was not trying to implying that criticism should be used to justify a novel you like. In the example I provided it would be a preference for whatever inherently makes a genre book a good genre work, and I wasn't saying this having in mind exactly what that should be with this brilliant list I'm waiting to drop on you. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no critique style for generic genre reader and what would match up with them. I'm not talking about a giant list of tropes or something like thousand faces, but more broad strokes that places high value on what the genre readers** find interesting over prose or political message that literary criticism often finds itself focused on. *I'm not saying it's an incorrect viewpoint, dear god don't go off on a tangent here. **I'm aware that there are many different kinds of genre readers but I'm not saying make only 1 style to critique them all.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:46
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:I meant the preference of the criticism being applied, such as the criticism example you gave assumes that feminism is a correct viewpoint* for the purposes of the critique as it attempts to view the work from that point of view. I was not trying to implying that criticism should be used to justify a novel you like. In the example I provided it would be a preference for whatever inherently makes a genre book a good genre work, and I wasn't saying this having in mind exactly what that should be with this brilliant list I'm waiting to drop on you. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no critique style for generic genre reader and what would match up with them. I'm not talking about a giant list of tropes or something like thousand faces, but more broad strokes that places high value on what the genre readers** find interesting over prose or political message that literary criticism often finds itself focused on. So you want a form of critique that doesn't examine the work in a broader sociopolitical context or even evaluate the quality of the prose but only on whether it's 'good' or 'bad' for people who only read genre poo poo
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Mar 13, 2018 23:17
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Down With People posted:So you want a form of critique that doesn't examine the work in a broader sociopolitical context or even evaluate the quality of the prose but only on whether it's 'good' or 'bad' for people who only read genre poo poo I do think that genre works should be compared to other genre works to see where they fall on the spectrum of "good" for that genre. If I order a burger I compare it to all the other burgers I've eaten before. Comparing to steak doesn't make sense. That doesn't mean that prose quality is meaningless, but a different standard specific to that genre is applied.
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Mar 14, 2018 00:05
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:I meant the preference of the criticism being applied, such as the criticism example you gave assumes that feminism is a correct viewpoint* for the purposes of the critique as it attempts to view the work from that point of view. Criticism has zero interest in "correct" viewpoints. A critique cannot be correct, that would suggest the book is an objectively knowable thing. Critiques can only be valid, and as long as a critique is rigorously and honestly applied, that critique is a valid one. Literally everything written from the folio of Shakespeare to a taco takeout menu is equally "valid" to give any kind of critical reading to. The depth of the result might be wildly different, but the motivation remains the same. Additionally, all art is inherently political. There is no such thing as an art that cannot be looked at through a political lens. This is because art is a reflection of the reader, and the reader is always at some level political. Name the least political novel you can imagine and I can show you otherwise BananaNutkins posted:I do think that genre works should be compared to other genre works to see where they fall on the spectrum of "good" for that genre. If I order a burger I compare it to all the other burgers I've eaten before. Comparing to steak doesn't make sense. That doesn't mean that prose quality is meaningless, but a different standard specific to that genre is applied. You are asking for a review not a critique Academic criticism is wholly disinterested in the novel as product, which is what you seem to be pushing for Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 00:06
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