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Kevin Dunn appears to be very skilled at his job, but he is also notorious for chasing mainstream trends and respectability. I presume the WWE style has gone this way precisely because it's become more the norm for huge tentpole blockbusters.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:29
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Kevin Dunn is not particularly skilled at his job. He's very skilled at keeping his job. The WWE TV production is like 25 years behind even the cheapest TLC reality show.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:39
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muscles like this! posted:Its a weird movie because at times it feels like a science fiction movie what with all the stuff about genetic engineering. Probably the biggest issue with the movie is that the plot comes to what is basically the end but then the movie continues for another 15 or so minutes with another action scene that feels completely pointless.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:00
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Legacy feels indebted to a lot of cheesy action flicks; one shot that sticks in my mind is when they poison their own agents, and this Asian woman stands stiffly with a trickle of blood from her nose before keeling over dead. What best keeps it in line with the original films is Ed Norton's character, a real piece-of-poo poo spook who thinks this whole Blackbriar/Treadstone thing was a bizarre fiasco and just wants to cut their losses and cover everything up.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:07
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I watched the "making of" features on the Bourne movies, and Greengrass said he used the shaky-cam to make the action as confusing for the viewer as (he thinks) it would be for someone it was actually happening to. The making-of thing has a shot from a little distance of the fight with the rolled-up magazines, and the choreography looked great. . . and you could see Greengrass with a fistfull of the cameraman's jacket, yanking him back and forth to mess up the shot. In conclusion, shaky-cam makes me ill and Greengrass should be shot, or at least beaten to death by his cameraman, although some may disagree.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:15
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Legacy was ok but the worst part was they introduce this big scary "asset" and then there is no fight scene between him and Renner.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:26
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Professional fighters aren't confused during a fight. Bourne isn't confused when he's in his car chases, he's planning his moves the whole time. Bad action director.Wandle Cax posted:Legacy was ok but the worst part was they introduce this big scary "asset" and then there is no fight scene between him and Renner. Yeah he gets taken out like a Z-level mook.
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Mar 12, 2018 22:26
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MrBling posted:Whenever people mention shakycam and fast cuts all I can think of is the current WWE production style, which is headache inducing at best. A person could be forgiven for thinking this was a highlight reel from a longer sequence and not actually what was happening in realtime from second to second. The switches between angles have no relation to the action or the direction of the fighters so it feels disjointed like a bunch of clips. A properly produced sports broadcast gives time for the action to sink in so that there's context for a shot from a different camera. Also lol at all the fast zooming in and out. Maybe it's because I just watched Cool Runnings but I just think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQgkBdNwqB0
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Mar 12, 2018 23:51
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Halloween Jack posted:Legacy feels indebted to a lot of cheesy action flicks; one shot that sticks in my mind is when they poison their own agents, and this Asian woman stands stiffly with a trickle of blood from her nose before keeling over dead. I remember that the bad guys bragged that their main evil asset had "no ethical programming," which was pretty great. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 00:05
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The best part is when his underlings lay out a comprehensive plan about how this time, they're definitely going to find Jason Bourne and kill him, and he goes "Did you morons hear anything I just said? I wouldn't touch Jason Bourne if someone tied him up and dumped him on our doorstep."
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Mar 13, 2018 02:03
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Hey, this is a little off topic, but there was a buddy action movie back in the 90s, MAYBE late 80s, and I think a commercial or a trailer used the tagline “If they could just stand each other...they could stand against anything!” Does that sound familiar to anyone? I vaguely remember Wesley Snipes, so it might have been one of his team-ups with Woody Harrelson, but I wouldn’t count on it.
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Mar 13, 2018 03:09
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DivisionPost posted:Hey, this is a little off topic, but there was a buddy action movie back in the 90s, MAYBE late 80s, and I think a commercial or a trailer used the tagline “If they could just stand each other...they could stand against anything!” Sounds a little like maybe Tango & Cash.
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Mar 13, 2018 03:24
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DivisionPost posted:Hey, this is a little off topic, but there was a buddy action movie back in the 90s, MAYBE late 80s, and I think a commercial or a trailer used the tagline “If they could just stand each other...they could stand against anything!” I believe you're thinking of Grand Slam (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099692/) a TV movie from 1990.
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Mar 13, 2018 05:45
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It was probably Red Heat.
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Mar 13, 2018 06:07
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MrBling posted:Was the Jeremy Renner Bourne movie any good? I never got around to watching it. Watched it for the sweet set piece in Manila, they nailed the feel of the city.
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Mar 13, 2018 06:19
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DivisionPost posted:Hey, this is a little off topic, but there was a buddy action movie back in the 90s, MAYBE late 80s, and I think a commercial or a trailer used the tagline “If they could just stand each other...they could stand against anything!” Money Train?
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Mar 13, 2018 06:20
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Just watched Bourne Legacy last night and definitely enjoyed it, the cast elevates it above what could've easily been a completely mediocre film. I liked the scenario, and how it tied in with the events happening alongside it with Bourne and the characters from those movies like Landy and Vossin. As for the asset that never fights Cross directly, that's almost a tradition on Bourne films. Kirril from Supremacy gets taken out in a similar way, and so does the asset in Ultimatum(who ends up coming back and having that final exchange with Bourne on the rooftop). I think the difference in Legacy is that the asset was brought in too late to really have anything interesting to do, Kirril and the guy from Ultimatum are introduced much earlier.
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Mar 13, 2018 15:55
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Professional fighters aren't confused during a fight. Bourne isn't confused when he's in his car chases, he's planning his moves the whole time. Bad action director. Professional fighters describe their own fights inaccurately all the time, not least cause of all the head trauma
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Mar 13, 2018 16:02
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Professional fighters aren't confused during a fight. Why would you say something so easily refuted and just, on its face, monumentally dumb?
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Mar 13, 2018 16:36
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Why would you say something so easily refuted and just, on its face, monumentally dumb? I get what they were trying to say though, just that the word "professional" doesn't really describe it properly. Jason Bourne is beyond professional, he's like the world's most trained and uber-skilled assassin, and the guy's he's fighting typically aren't that far behind him. So it's supposed to be almost autopilot for him, not chaos and confusion. I think the shakey-cam works for scenes where he's taking out random cops who don't know what they're up against, but for the assassin vs. assasin showdowns I like more of a god's eye view.
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Mar 13, 2018 16:44
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In either case, we're not watching a fight training video but a movie, and being able to see everything clearly is almost always better (see Jackie Chan fights).
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Mar 13, 2018 16:45
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Why would you say something so easily refuted and just, on its face, monumentally dumb? Absolutely right, let me try this again: the camera starts shaking before anyone lays a finger on Bourne. The whole deal with Bourne is it's move - countermove. You pull out a knife, he picks up a pen he noticed as he walks in and stabs your knife hand. You try to grab his arm, he reverses and kicks your knee. That kind of poo poo. That's how the movie shows his fighting, he adapts to whatever he notices, eventually wearing down his opponent. Shaking the camera around is the antithesis of how Bourne is portrayed in these situations - cool, calm, effective, collected. But let's take another example: Nolan's Batman, which also fucks up the action pretty badly. In this case it's a little more acceptable because you're supposed to be seeing things from the perspective of Batman's poorly trained, terrified foes. But Bourne is usually fighting fellow assassins and other total badasses who aren't scared and are very good fighters, so that doesn't make any sense. That's why it's a weak choice. Edit: Lol I should have read Basebf555's post first, he got there before I did.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:20
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Basebf555 posted:I get what they were trying to say though, just that the word "professional" doesn't really describe it properly. That autopilot is also the same reason some professional fighters have no idea what happened in their fights. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with skill level either. A fight is chaotic, Bourne beating the poo poo out of a street cop is not a fight and should not be presented as a frantic duel.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:51
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Tezcatlipoca posted:That autopilot is also the same reason some professional fighters have no idea what happened in their fights. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with skill level either. A fight is chaotic, Bourne beating the poo poo out of a street cop is not a fight and should not be presented as a frantic duel. Again though, I think we need to separate real life from what happens in these kind of movies. Bourne and the other Treadstone guys are on a different level than what you'd find anywhere in real life. Real fights are chaotic, regardless of skill level, but Bourne has transcended that because he's just waaaay more skilled than anything we would compare him to in reality. Bourne fighting a cop who isn't on his level can justify the shakey-cam as from the perspective of the cop, not Bourne. Things are moving so fast that the cop can't even fully absorb what's happening, but when it's Bourne vs. Desh that's a different story. Think about Equilibrium as an example. The intro to the clerics is a chaotic scene where you can't parse exactly what's happening because we're being given the view from the other side. Ragtag fighters who have to deal with this literal superhero all of the sudden showing up to decimate them. But after that we see Bale's action moments very clearly and almost dispassionately because that's how he sees it. Because of his training, he his making well planned chess moves at the speed of thought, there is no chaos. Treadstone is no more grounded or realistic than Equilibrium, only the trappings surrounding it are. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 17:55
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Just imagine John Wick shot in the Bourne style. Stupid, right? Yeah.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:01
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Basebf555 posted:Again though, I think we need to separate real life from what happens in these kind of movies. Bourne and the other Treadstone guys are on a different level than what you'd find anywhere in real life. Real fights are chaotic, regardless of skill level, but Bourne has transcended that because he's just waaaay more skilled than anything we would compare him to in reality. I don't want to separate real life from movie fights though because most movie fights are poo poo and look ridiculous. I want movie fights to look more like real fights because most movie fights are faux kungfu/karate trash. It's mostly weightless, heavily choreographed dancing. Equilibrium was the pinnacle of that with gunkata but it was so ridiculous it looped back around to funny and cool. If Bourne is fighting someone almost equal to him then why should the fight be shot more calmly than his beating up a chump? It should be more desperate not less. Not that shaky cam should be used to portray that feeling. Tezcatlipoca fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 18:10
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Tezcatlipoca posted:I don't want to separate real life from movie fights though because most movie fights are poo poo and look ridiculous. I want movie fights to look more like real fights because most movie fights are faux kungfu/karate trash. It's mostly weightless, heavily choreographed dancing. If Bourne is fighting someone almost equal to him then why should the fight be shot more calmly than his beating up a chump? It should be more desperate not less. Not that shaky cam should be used to portray that feeling. If the choreography is good, it should be shot in a way that displays that as clearly as possible, period. Showing great action clearly should be a default position, then if you have a real justification for shooting a scene in a way that obscures the action so be it. Real fighting and shooting is often extremely boring and/or confusing to watch, not sure why you'd argue that it should be the goal to accurately reproduce that on screen.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:15
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Basebf555 posted:Real fighting and shooting is often extremely boring and/or confusing to watch, not sure why you'd argue that it should be the goal to accurately reproduce that on screen. This is just ignorant as hell and deliberately missing the point. John Wick and Flash Point are not worse movies because their fight scenes look more like actual fights than the wire-fu of the Matrix. As to your other point you're presenting a false dichotomy. Action scenes can be chaotic and still show the action. Not everything has to be a god's eye view to display the choreography and story of the fight.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:25
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Tezcatlipoca posted:I don't want to separate real life from movie fights though because most movie fights are poo poo and look ridiculous. I want movie fights to look more like real fights because most movie fights are faux kungfu/karate trash. It's mostly weightless, heavily choreographed dancing. If I wanted to see a "real" fight there's a million worldstar vids and MMA matches to watch. I don't care about realism at all. It's about telling a story though the movement and visuals, just like every other part of the movie, and shaky cam destroys that coherence for (what I feel is) very little value.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:26
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:If I wanted to see a "real" fight there's a million worldstar vids and MMA matches to watch. I don't care about realism at all. It's about telling a story though the movement and visuals, just like every other part of the movie, and shaky cam destroys that coherence for (what I feel is) very little value. If I wanted to see kung fu I'd watch youtube videos of kata competitions. Movies are almost entirely that boring style of fake looking stuff that has no weight. Everything looks floaty and weird and nobody looks like they would have taken a bruise. It's tedious. Tezcatlipoca fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 18:28
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Tezcatlipoca posted:This is just ignorant as hell and deliberately missing the point. John Wick and Flash Point are not worse movies because their fight scenes look more like actual fights than the wire-fu of the Matrix. Realism is just one aspect of fight choreography, and really not even a major one. The action scenes in John Wick aren't great because of realism, the realistic aspects(judo throws, tactical reloading) of them are more like an extra little spice that makes Wick feel unique when mixed with all the other ridiculousness. The action scenes in The Matrix, or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, or Iron Monkey, are great in their own way that is different than John Wick or Jason Bourne. It's a different style but they don't use camera techniques to purposely hide the action from the viewer, you see it in all it's glory and then you can either like it or not. But you can't say you didn't see it. Realism is not the be all end all, I stand by my statement that showing the action clearly should be a default position unless there's a compelling reason not to.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:31
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Tezcatlipoca posted:If I wanted to see kung fu I'd watch youtube videos of kata competitions. Movies are almost entirely that boring style of fake looking stuff that has no weight. Everything looks floaty and weird and nobody looks like they would have taken a bruise. It's tedious. Help me out here...what movies are you referring to that have this crap style of action? Because your main point seems to be that getting hit should have consequences, and I actually agree with that completely.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:33
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Help me out here...what movies are you referring to that have this crap style of action? I think he's saying that kung fu in film is inherently fake looking, and therefore should be shot chaotically to paper over the flaws. I mean, it's an opinion, but it goes against basically everything fans of martial arts films have celebrated for decades.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:36
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Killzone 2 (2016, Tony Jaa) has wire-fu and loving absolutely brutal hits and poo poo, wire work and chop-socky ain't the problem. Watch Killzone 2 y'all
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Mar 13, 2018 18:43
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Yeah the action in Killzone 2 is dope. Helps that I don't have to stare at that egotistical oval office Yen for two hours.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:47
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Killzone 2 (2016, Tony Jaa) has wire-fu and loving absolutely brutal hits and poo poo, wire work and chop-socky ain't the problem. drat, that movie loving rules
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Mar 13, 2018 18:48
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Help me out here...what movies are you referring to that have this crap style of action? Because your main point seems to be that getting hit should have consequences, and I actually agree with that completely. Not only that getting hit should have consequences but the blows delivered should justify the consequences. All the movies Base mentioned above have that floaty style that takes me completely out of a movie. If a movie is telling me that some person is the most bad-rear end fighter in the world then they throw a bunch of bad arm punches I will immediately stop giving a poo poo. The dojo scene in the Matrix is a prime example. Basebf555 posted:Realism is just one aspect of fight choreography, and really not even a major one. The action scenes in John Wick aren't great because of realism, the realistic aspects(judo throws, tactical reloading) of them are more like an extra little spice that makes Wick feel unique when mixed with all the other ridiculousness. I cannot abide a guy being knocked completely unconscious by the lightest touch of the protagonist. I don't care how well it was shot. There is no tension or drama in that. John Wick armbarring a guy and using his body as a bullet shield is loving cool and also something that I can believe would happen.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:51
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Basebf555 posted:I think he's saying that kung fu in film is inherently fake looking, and therefore should be shot chaotically to paper over the flaws. I mean, it's an opinion, but it goes against basically everything fans of martial arts films have celebrated for decades. Oh so you aren't actually arguing with me, just your strawman.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:55
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Oh so you aren't actually arguing with me, just your strawman. I'm trying to understand you, relax. Obviously kung fu isn't something you typically enjoy in film, yea? What's an example of a kung fu movie where you'd say the action is satisfying to you?
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Mar 13, 2018 18:57
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What are the best sword fights in a movie? I like the one in Rob Roy. It's been a while since I saw The Duellists but I remember it having some sword fighting I thought was pretty good. Whichever version of Zorro had Tyrone Power has a good one where he fights Rathbone.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:58
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