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R. Guyovich posted:this is basically the system in china but there are rules that mandate the candidate lists are x percent longer than the number of deputy or delegate seats. at higher levels the percentage is lower, ie from one tier to the next it might go from 150 percent to 120 percent In a nation where the state has absolute authority over both the media and all its subsidiary corporate components, including workers' organizations, I expect lots of the bottom-five to bottom-two choices get selected, and possibly form a dissident bloc in the People's Assembly or whatever. That's never happened since Kim Il Sung purged all his fellow anti-Japanese nationalists with popular standing? Huh, weird. Well, that's the superiority of workers' democracy for you. Unanimity!
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Mar 11, 2018 07:20
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/thomaswright08/status/972649779976179712?s=19 Jesus they're not even bothering to hide their warmongering anymore. 
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Mar 11, 2018 08:26
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Office Pig posted:Sure does cast that meeting in a new light, huh. I think Trump sounds way too loving confident about the meeting for him to be taking Bolton to heart Plus, even if Bolton became NSA, Trump doesn't listen to any of his advisors
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Mar 11, 2018 10:29
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Jagged Jim posted:Jesus they're not even bothering to hide their warmongering anymore. John Bolton has literally always been a blood-gargling nutter.
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Mar 11, 2018 22:13
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:In a nation where the state has absolute authority over both the media and all its subsidiary corporate components, including workers' organizations, I expect lots of the bottom-five to bottom-two choices get selected, and possibly form a dissident bloc in the People's Assembly or whatever. Guyovich is basically saying that China is more democratic than NK because they allow some amount of choice beyond Y/N. Which is true. Interesting little factoid: the ruling Kim and, usually, the heir apparent generally run for a parliament slot in a district with an auspicious number like 111. This district also generally has turnout even closer to 100% than average.  electoral "campaigns" in that district are also the most likely time for random low ranking schlubs to experience the
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Mar 11, 2018 22:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Guyovich is basically saying that China is more democratic than NK because they allow some amount of choice beyond Y/N. Which is true. Oh dang I thought HomEx was saying there was a better system in China. Workers' democracy, y'all!
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Mar 11, 2018 22:26
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Dunno. As far as missiles generally, Saddam kept his Scuds firing for several weeks, I think, and he had something like 1/20 of the ballistic missiles that North Korea has. Yeah, but how safe would Japan be vs. South Korea? At least with Japan, they have SOME form of missile defense
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Mar 11, 2018 22:34
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/thomaswright08/status/972649779976179712?s=19 yeah, sounds about right, though i don't think its intentional on trumps part.
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Mar 12, 2018 01:42
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Willo567 posted:Yeah, but how safe would Japan be vs. South Korea? At least with Japan, they have SOME form of missile defense
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Mar 12, 2018 02:46
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Oh dang I thought HomEx was saying there was a better system in China. Workers' democracy, y'all! the system is better in china. internal party democracy is pretty much the same, but the outcome is multiple candidates rather than one. so in both cases that internal process has to keep to democratic rule to be legitimate.
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Mar 12, 2018 03:46
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R. Guyovich posted:the system is better in china. internal party democracy is pretty much the same, but the outcome is multiple candidates rather than one. so in both cases that internal process has to keep to democratic rule to be legitimate. What? Surely you'd agree that, within the context of a properly-constituted workers' democracy, providing choices for the electors is unnecessary. You follow that sort of crazy logic, you might end up with open elections.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:03
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https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/973032609986023425?s=19 I believe an actual peace treaty formally ending the Korean War has been North Korea's #1 foreign policy goal for decades right?
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Mar 12, 2018 07:15
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Is there a reason why NK has been quiet about a possible summit? I think it may be because they don't want to confuse the masses after spending years of claiming that they will destroy the U.S.
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Mar 12, 2018 11:29
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NK getting a summit with the US President so quickly after being able to threaten us with nukes is a vindication of their strategy and if it happens they will propagandize it heavily - "all the sacrifices we made to create these weapons were worth it, as now the enemy treats us with legitimacy and as equals." Also, when they talk about 'denuclearization' they mean 'denuclearization of the peninsula', i.e. the US gets out and we destroy our nukes too. But of course they haven't confirmed any of this, which makes the most likely scenario that South Korea got out over its skis with the summit thing, possibly intentionally misinterpreting what NK said, in order to make it a fait accompli, out of fear that Trump was about to do a military action, and now NK is trying to think of how best to handle the situation that they didn't really expect to get into.
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Mar 12, 2018 14:05
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Willo567 posted:Is there a reason why NK has been quiet about a possible summit? I think it may be because they don't want to confuse the masses after spending years of claiming that they will destroy the U.S. Quiet where? the news we get about north korea's news is like, extremely spotty at best. Unless they make a wacky video or use particularly outlandish language no one reports on any of that stuff very much and no one around here sees any of it directly.
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Mar 12, 2018 14:18
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https://twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/973314951765872640
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Mar 12, 2018 23:27
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Kim probably didn't expect Trump to be dumb enough to just sit down and have beers, a shouting match, and/or WW3?
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Mar 13, 2018 01:18
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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suck my woke dick posted:Kim probably didn't expect Trump to be dumb enough to just sit down and have beers, a shouting match, and/or WW3? It's probably this, yeah. Trump sitting down to talk with no permanent preconditions or clear goals is hilariously good propaganda for the DPRK. It's also just, like, good in general since open lines of communication are a good thing. Or at least it would be under just about any other administration, but in this case the DPRK leadership are probably trying to figure out how they can take advantage of this situation without humiliating Trump so completely that he starts a war with them.
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Mar 13, 2018 07:15
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/973032609986023425?s=19 That I doubt. I mean, with SK sure, but not with America. Having America as a propaganda threat seems pretty crucial to holding up the regime.
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Mar 13, 2018 10:57
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Tias posted:That I doubt. I mean, with SK sure, but not with America. Having America as a propaganda threat seems pretty crucial to holding up the regime. Eh, they could just shift the focus on Japan from 50% to full tilt. You've seen their elementary math books. In slightly more serious terms, they need to internally justify their military emphasis by occasionally shooting something that bleeds. That isn't from their own country, that is. De Facto peace is fine, but officially ending the armistice is right out.
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Mar 13, 2018 11:24
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loving bye, Tillerson.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:33
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OneEightHundred posted:North Korea's stability is heavily built on propaganda, so the value of grade A propaganda material to it should be obvious. Pretty much by definition, propaganda need have no relation to reality because you are creating a new reality, and something real being used as a basis doesn't make it more powerful. I mean what, you think Goebbels needed real news to tell the Germans that Nazism was winning in mid-1944? So what's the actual use here? One cannot just faff about saying "but propaganda value" when attempting to explain benefits, there needs to be something that won't exist without the meeting actually occurring.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:54
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fishmech posted:So what's the actual use here?
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Mar 13, 2018 18:01
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fishmech posted:Pretty much by definition, propaganda need have no relation to reality because you are creating a new reality, and something real being used as a basis doesn't make it more powerful. I mean what, you think Goebbels needed real news to tell the Germans that Nazism was winning in mid-1944? Surely it's the external rather than internal media coverage which is of value here. By development of a weapon, they have forced the United States to humble itself; they exalt themselves in the process. China and Russia will look on with some glee.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:17
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North Korea wants security and economic development like most countries, which is why it has consistently sought normalized relations and a peace treaty. It's really not that hard to understand
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Mar 13, 2018 18:19
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Chomskyan posted:North Korea wants security and economic development like most countries, which is why it has consistently sought normalized relations and a peace treaty. It's really not that hard to understand So, they want something from us. What are we going to get from them?
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Mar 13, 2018 18:26
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:So, they want something from us. What are we going to get from them? Pretty telling that western warmongers don’t find the idea of a peace treaty to be mutually beneficial
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Mar 13, 2018 19:28
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Surely it's the external rather than internal media coverage which is of value here. By development of a weapon, they have forced the United States to humble itself; they exalt themselves in the process. China and Russia will look on with some glee. How is it of value though? They're happy to selectively edit and quote disparate external sources just as American propaganda does. Like again, propaganda is about making your own truth to use. Chomskyan posted:North Korea wants security and economic development like most countries, which is why it has consistently sought normalized relations and a peace treaty. It's really not that hard to understand Trump can't do that. So tell me what they'll actually get. And if the North Koreans don't know trump is too stupid and obstinate to do it, they're clearly not paying attention. Even if he promised Kim Jong Un everything at the meeting, 5 hours later he's on Twitter demanding war.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:31
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:So, they want something from us. What are we going to get from them? We get to not be responsible for millions of people dying in a pointless war
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Mar 13, 2018 19:47
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Chomskyan posted:We get to not be responsible for millions of people dying in a pointless war Why would the Republican Party in general or Donald Trump in particular want that?
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Mar 13, 2018 19:54
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fishmech posted:So what's the actual use here? One cannot just faff about saying "but propaganda value" when attempting to explain benefits, there needs to be something that won't exist without the meeting actually occurring. I can think of some. If Trump negotiates with Kim, at all, it validates the idea that the US and NK are at war, even if a cold one. This imaginary war is the pretext the regime uses for the lack of freedoms in the country. They can't grant free speech or free press because it would weaken them in the fight against the US. As a dictatorship with hereditary succession, the NK govt also derives legitimacy from this imaginary conflict. They can't have political debate or free elections because it might weaken them against the US. If Kim extracts concessions, or even a few empty phrases of good will from Trump, it will make him look like a good leader who deserves to be in power. Of course, internal mouthpieces can just parrot state propaganda, but the average NK citizen knows state media is bs. Whether talks go well or poorly, international media will report on it, and the NK leadership can spin it as a self-serving positive to the masses. Conversely, the US gets no benefit from the charade, and just looks stupid. Chomskyan posted:North Korea wants security and economic development like most countries, which is why it has consistently sought normalized relations and a peace treaty. It's really not that hard to understand 'North Korea' wants that, but the leadership and ruling class just want to protect themselves personally and retain their privileges. If prosperity could be bought for the price of Kim's harem and home theatre, it wouldn't happen. The economy only needs to be functional enough that the poor don't revolt.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:55
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Chomskyan posted:We get to not be responsible for millions of people dying in a pointless war We haven't gone to war with them for the better part of a century, a summit isn't required for that. Also, you know that. So what's the benefit of a summit? fishmech posted:How is it of value though? They're happy to selectively edit and quote disparate external sources just as American propaganda does. Like again, propaganda is about making your own truth to use. China is well known for being irritated with North Korea. But if they bring us to heel? That's a diplomatic coup, and might regain their attention.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:58
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Preen Dog posted:I can think of some. We are at war with them though. Your entire premise is flawed. They have never stopped being at war with UN Command. UN Command and thus the US, SK and many others have never stopped being at war with North Korea. Preen Dog posted:
Trump is of course, already massively stupid.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:04
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fishmech posted:We are at war with them though. Your entire premise is flawed. They have never stopped being at war with UN Command. UN Command and thus the US, SK and many others have never stopped being at war with North Korea. True, they are technically literally at war. A forever paused war that gives the NK leadership legitimacy, and gives the US nothing (but the opportunity to have a midget nuclear dictatorship thumb it's nose at you while you have to stand there and do nothing). Trump being stupid and a liar also makes Kim look good. Kim be trollin, yo. Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:We haven't gone to war with them for the better part of a century, a summit isn't required for that. Also, you know that. So what's the benefit of a summit? It will be so funny. You know you want it.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:31
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Trump is going to start selling weapons to NK in exchange for putting a giant T on that worthless megahotel
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Mar 13, 2018 20:53
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Preen Dog posted:True, they are technically literally at war. A forever paused war that gives the NK leadership legitimacy, and gives the US nothing (but the opportunity to have a midget nuclear dictatorship thumb it's nose at you while you have to stand there and do nothing). It gives the US a ton of bases all over the area that they would not otherwise have. It's long been a big reason for military funding. Trump is already stupid and a liar regardless of the meetings happening or even being proposed.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:36
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Surely it's the external rather than internal media coverage which is of value here. By development of a weapon, they have forced the United States to humble itself; they exalt themselves in the process. China and Russia will look on with some glee. Political victory is most valuable when it's from pulling off the unexpected against great odds. North Korea bringing the US to the table under any prior presidential administration would be a political coup for them. But this pathetic Trump administration is an easy dunk in the eyes of the world, and North Korea would do well to keep in mind that whatever they can gain from engagement with the Shithead-In-Chief is only a technical victory. And that's assuming that talks and negotiations actually result in some kind of resolution to the Korean situation (be it permanent or just more can-kicking); it could well be that Trump blows any kind of leverage, bargaining, and political heft we still have on the peninsula and our ability to engage with North Korea shrinks to military options. I do agree that this plays into China's favor, regardless. They'll let us flail around and look foolish, wimpy, pathetic, unfit to lead. They'll let us waste our waning influence on the world stage, allow us to make steadfast allies reconsider and distance themselves from needing us, and then they'll have the option to step in as a major regional power broker and get a freer hand to operate with regarding North Korea while the US is unable to mount any serious opposition or response.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:44
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https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/973623540384718848 Korea War II, coming soon to a theater near you! 
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Mar 13, 2018 23:14
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fishmech posted:It gives the US a ton of bases all over the area that they would not otherwise have. It's long been a big reason for military funding. Are there any reasons that actually benefit us normal Americans, or anyone else aside from defense contractors? This is why our politicians don't like talking about the Korean peninsula. We have to maintain our alliance with South Korea in order to hold on to military bases which as far as anyone can tell don't do anything except be a potential target for North Korean missiles. For this, we have to live under a cloud of nuclear devastation? Why? The premise falls apart the minute it's prodded even slightly, and that's not even taking into account how the South Koreans whose interests we're allegedly defending give maybe a tenth as many fucks about North Korea as we do. Speaking of which, Lee Myung-bak is going to the prosecutor's office today to face questioning all day in regards to bribery allegations. This is a pretty big deal- major news networks had their cameras fixed outside of his house for a couple of hours just in preparation to watch him physically go. For a sake of perspective, there was this same media frenzy when Park Geun-hye was called in for questioning. Evidence has already been found indicating that Lee Myung-bak was taking bribes as early as the 2008 election, and probably earlier. This is an even bigger deal than it sounds, because when former president Roh Moo-hyeon became a popular opposition figure early in Lee Myung-bak's presidency, Lee Myung-bak responded by organizing a smear campaign accusing Roh Moo-hyeon of taking bribes, which eventually led to his suicide. It was eventually learned that these "bribes" consisted of basically one loan Roh Moo-hyeon's wife took out from a family friend without her husband's knowledge. There's absolutely zero sympathy for Lee Myung-bak right now. Hong Joon-pyo (the conservative opposition leader) explicitly said that no attempts will be made on their part to mitigate or justify Lee Myung-bak's behavior. Other people whose names have come up in the investigation are already facing charges, so really, it 's just a matter of time. You are unlikely to hear about any of this in mainstream English language news, since in the likely event that Lee Myung-bak goes to jail literally every South Korean president who has ever unambiguously supported American policy on the Korean peninsula will have been a criminal.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:44
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Jagged Jim posted:https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/973623540384718848 So if Bolton is placed in the White House, should we kiss our asses goodbye?
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Mar 14, 2018 01:45
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