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The Shape of Water was bad and dumb
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Mar 13, 2018 19:57
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Randaconda posted:
Fixed that. E: except gladiator, that one was ok
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Mar 13, 2018 21:24
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Fixed that. Platoon 
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Mar 13, 2018 21:33
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Randaconda posted:Platoon Fine lets just say from 2001 onward then.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:35
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Mu Zeta posted:DS9 is good show, but I can understand why Star Trek fans forget about it. Everyone cares about Spock and Kirk but not Bashir and Kira Nerys who are way more interesting. Kira is a god drat legit terrorist who has admitted to killing countless children and civilians and she's one of the good guys in a Star Trek show. Gene Roddenberry would have had a stroke if he saw it. Eh, one of the problems with Star Trek is that utopia gets kind of boring so they had to figure out other things to do. DS9 was interesting specifically because the Federation found itself dealing with an extraordinarily hosed up situation. The station itself was built by Bajoran slaves when the Cardassians occupied the area. The Cardassians are awful and the Bajorans absolutely despise them. The political situation was insanely delicate, Sisko is not only an officer but fated to fulfill a prophecy he never even wanted, nobody understands what the gently caress Odo really is at first, and then the Dominion shows up. The station is around the only known stable wormhole anywhere which is also full of aliens. The station itself is partly occupied by the Federation and partly by the Bajoran militia and they have to keep the Bajoran resistance from terrorizing the Cardassians so the situation doesn't get worse while the Cardassians are...well they're being Cardassians. It's one of those situations where there just plain aren't easy answers and all the rules the Federation likes to live by had to be bent out of necessity. The main thing that DS9 did that set it apart from the previous shows was that all the decisions the characters made really had consequences beyond "the ship was almost destroyed again and some nameless red shirts died. By the end of the day everything was OK."
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Mar 13, 2018 21:51
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The Shape Of Water was actually pretty good even if you don’t agree wrt the ethics of fish-loving
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Mar 13, 2018 22:00
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If Benito Mussolini made an amazing film that had no fascist messaging, I would still not pay for it
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Mar 13, 2018 22:31
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Throw Corradini from the Train
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Mar 13, 2018 22:43
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Sacrificing films and video games is an incredibly hollow gesture for ethical consumption.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:47
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:If Benito Mussolini made an amazing film that had no fascist messaging, I would still not pay for it There is plenty of amazing Italian futurist art.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:49
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hawowanlawow posted:they don't have to outweigh each other, they are unrelated So if a dude had a print of this painting on his wall, you wouldn't think badly of the dude at all? You'd be like, "It's just a painting, it's not an endorsement of everything the painter did. Dude who bought that print is probably a completely normal dude" 
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Mar 13, 2018 22:52
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Guy Goodbody posted:So if a dude had a print of this painting on his wall, you wouldn't think badly of the dude at all? You'd be like, "It's just a painting, it's not an endorsement of everything the painter did. Dude who bought that print is probably a completely normal dude" It's a picture of a house.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:So if a dude had a print of this painting on his wall, you wouldn't think badly of the dude at all? You'd be like, "It's just a painting, it's not an endorsement of everything the painter did. Dude who bought that print is probably a completely normal dude" Is that a vintage Hitler?
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Mar 13, 2018 22:55
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poptart_fairy posted:Sacrificing films and video games is an incredibly hollow gesture for ethical consumption. It's literally the smallest thing you could do, just don't give money to or talk up the works of a guy who's escaped punishment for marrying one daughter and raping another. But still people are like, "Annie Hall is on the AFI's top 100 list. No choice, I gotta watch it. sorrynotsorry"
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Mar 13, 2018 22:56
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Guy Goodbody posted:So if a dude had a print of this painting on his wall, you wouldn't think badly of the dude at all? You'd be like, "It's just a painting, it's not an endorsement of everything the painter did. Dude who bought that print is probably a completely normal dude" Well, Hitler's postcard art is unremarkable except for who made it. So yeah, it would be very suspicious if somebody displayed his ugly paintings prominently. OTOH if somebody had a painting by some not commonly known fascist painter, among a broader collection of art, which wasn't self-evidently political, it would really not be a big deal, imo. steinrokkan has a new favorite as of 23:01 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 22:58
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Guy Goodbody posted:It's literally the smallest thing you could do, just don't give money to or talk up the works of a guy who's escaped punishment for marrying one daughter and raping another. But still people are like, "Annie Hall is on the AFI's top 100 list. No choice, I gotta watch it. sorrynotsorry" Yet I still see people presenting their boycott as a significant gesture. Nobody gives a poo poo if you aren't buying a DvD or taking part in a Steam sale.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:00
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Guy Goodbody posted:So if a dude had a print of this painting on his wall, you wouldn't think badly of the dude at all? You'd be like, "It's just a painting, it's not an endorsement of everything the painter did. Dude who bought that print is probably a completely normal dude" Thats not a good example because it isn't even good art, so the only possible reason anyone would buy it is because it is a Hitler painting. If someone like Rembrandt or something did the holocaust i think it would still be Ok to own as long as you buy it for its artistic merit instead of the killing millions of jews thing.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:00
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poptart_fairy posted:Yet I still see people presenting their boycott as a significant gesture. Nobody gives a poo poo if you aren't buying a DvD or taking part in a Steam sale. I do think it matters. Not on an individual level, but collectively, we need to reject the notion that Woody Allen is a director to be celebrated, or even that the quality of his movies need to weighed against his crimes It's not just Allen, in the whole entertainment industry it's OK for powerful me to prey on people. Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, a million other examples. The fact that Woody Allen is still allowed to make movies sends a very clear message that his victims don't matter. The fact that Allen's movies are still celebrated sends a very clear message that his moves matter more than his victims. Woody Allen used his position as a famous director to rape children and get away with it. And everybody who's like, "eeh, I don't approve of his actions but you gotta separate the art from the artist" is complicit in it.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:29
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How much in your life do you think is created by ethical people, through ethical means? Accusing people of being complicit in rape because they saw a terrible person's movie is an odd jumping point.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:34
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Guy Goodbody posted:everybody who's like, "eeh, I don't approve of his actions but you gotta separate the art from the artist" is complicit in it. nah separating art from artist is like some 8th grade level poo poo
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Mar 13, 2018 23:39
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poptart_fairy posted:How much in your life do you think is created by ethical people, through ethical means? I think it's less "saw a terrible person's movie" and more "knew the person who made the movie was terrible and watched it anyway." You know, like...Bill Cosby's stuff is tainted forever because he's been outed as a serial rapist. Nobody who is rational is going to judge you for watching and enjoying Cosby's stuff before you knew he was a serial rapist. That's a pretty recent outing, really; he managed to keep that poo poo pretty well secret for decades. It's difficult to try to watch and enjoy anything he's done now because it's like "wow, this dude drugged and raped women by the dozen." Of course it's a complex subject; if a person does something terrible, does the jail time, and endeavors to be decent from here on out is it OK to consume their media? If somebody reformed themselves and got back on the right path does that untaint their work? ToxicSlurpee has a new favorite as of 23:44 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 23:41
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hawowanlawow posted:nah Just because you learned something in 8th grade doesn't make it true. I hate to be the one to break that to you.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:43
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I think it's less "saw a terrible person's movie" and more "knew the person who made the movie was terrible and watched it anyway." Oh sure, I certainly get the idea behind it and I'm not bothered by people voting with their wallet, but the "you're complicit in what he did for watching his movie" logic is unbelievably lovely - and for me it raises the question of why the hell forsaking luxury items is what I only ever seem to hear people talking about. As opposed to, say, campaigning against more significant companies and industries at the same time. I didn't watch this movie, I am a Good Person.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:50
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Guy Goodbody posted:Just because you learned something in 8th grade doesn't make it true. I hate to be the one to break that to you. I hope you do your due diligence and research the creator of everything you watch or read, otherwise you're a massive poo poo
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Mar 13, 2018 23:51
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hawowanlawow posted:I hope you do your due diligence and research the creator of everything you watch or read, otherwise you're a massive poo poo That's an absurd standard to hold anyone to. It's like Toxic Slurpee said, there's nothing at all wrong about enjoying the work of a monster when you are ignorant of their monstrousness. But when the artists crimes are widely known, when the artist volunteers that information themself by marrying their daughter, then yeah that comes into play
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Mar 13, 2018 23:56
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poptart_fairy posted:Oh sure, I certainly get the idea behind it and I'm not bothered by people voting with their wallet, but the "you're complicit in what he did for watching his movie" logic is unbelievably lovely - and for me it raises the question of why the hell forsaking luxury items is what I only ever seem to hear people talking about. As opposed to, say, campaigning against more significant companies and industries at the same time. In the case of the entertainment industry there's a bit of merit to that argument. The reason is that the top tier of fame gives a person a lot of power and influence. Allowing the likes of Weinstein to keep his position where he could make or break careers would allow him to keep on abusing people. This is why these people are getting cast out the way they are and why people are refusing to watch stuff they're involved in now. If people won't watch something Weinstein is involved in then he loses his influence which is what he used to prey on people. People paying money to watch stuff Weinstein was involved in is what gave him enough power and influence to abuse people in the first place. One of the reasons all of these allegations are suddenly coming out is because this is a massive problem among people with power; they use that to get away with terrible things and hey we can't go after him he's too cool and good to be a serial rapist! ...oh wait gently caress turns out he's a serial rapist.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:57
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I was gonna make this post as a response to hawowanlawow, but I think it's worth being a standalone Personally Held Unpopular Opinion; "You have to separate the art from the artist" is not actually a universal law, a thing everyone just passively accepts. People don't have to do it. You can make a choice to separate the art from the artist, but that's all it is, a choice you are actively making.
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Mar 13, 2018 23:58
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hawowanlawow posted:I don't really believe people when they say they can't listen to something or watch something because of _______ thing the artist did. I think it's a cheap dopamine release and basically the left wing equivalent of talking about the good ol days. I don't believe that. I'll probably never watch Louie again, and I used to love it. I also think about what Michael Richards said every time Kramer is on screen, which definitely has an effect on how much I enjoy Seinfeld. I could think of plenty more examples, and I'm not even super into celebrity stuff so don't usually care who does what off screen. E: oh you've been talking about this for a whole page I didn't read :P
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Mar 14, 2018 00:03
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gently caress you I’m still gonna watch ghost Dad
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Mar 14, 2018 00:19
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Holy poo poo thread Speaking as a cocksucking jew, gently caress off to hell and back and then back to hell again with “but it is fine bc movie is good” Do not give money to rapists or fascists You fuckwads realize that “SA poster” would be grounds for being dragged off and shot under fascism? “But but... göbbels mad a good film or two” quoth the goon as he was shipped to a death camp Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 01:12 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 01:10
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hawowanlawow posted:I don't really believe people when they say they can't listen to something or watch something because of _______ thing the artist did. I think it's a cheap dopamine release and basically the left wing equivalent of talking about the good ol days. The way we interpret a piece of media is influenced by the knowledge we bring to it. If you know that the person primarily responsible for a piece of media did terrible things then there is no way to make yourself not know that or not let it influence your reading of the text. And that's before you even get into the ethics of supporting terrible people.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:12
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It's fine to like problematic art. It's also fine to feel too uncomfortable to like problematic art. Just don't give money to obviously terrible people for their art, especially in the internet age.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:14
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you guys really have nazis on the brain
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Mar 14, 2018 04:15
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hawowanlawow posted:you guys really have nazis on the brain It's 2018.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:21
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Henchman of Santa posted:It's fine to like problematic art. It's also fine to feel too uncomfortable to like problematic art. Just don't give money to obviously terrible people for their art, especially in the internet age. That's what I try to say too. It's completely valid to not watch something made by a problematic person. It's also valid to watch it and it does not make the viewer a bad person or complicit in anything.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:44
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Hideo Kojima is incredibly overrated as a game maker. He makes mostly good games with a couple great ones, but he in no way deserves the insane cult of worship that's been build up around him.
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Mar 14, 2018 07:00
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I'll rip on Kojima all day but he's not really overrated as a game designer. He's a terrible story teller and has a bad case of George Lucas syndrome, but he has consistently pushed the medium forward in interesting ways for like 30 years and his games have had had a pretty huge effect on the industry as a whole. They are also always full of quirky interesting details that most games fail at miserably, so for better or worse MGS has been consistency memorable and iconic.
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Mar 14, 2018 07:17
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Metal Gear Solid 2 has more environment interactivity than pretty much any game right now and that came out in 2001.
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Mar 14, 2018 07:39
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:You fuckwads realize that “SA poster” would be grounds for being dragged off and shot under fascism? I don't see how that is relevant to anything people have been saying. Besides, even if that were true you could escape that fate by becoming an informant for the secret police and helping them root out the hidden goon resistance.
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Mar 14, 2018 07:51
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:You fuckwads realize that “SA poster” would be grounds for being dragged off and shot under fascism? Our own fault for picking the wrong side and not pivoting to SS.
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Mar 14, 2018 08:16
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