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Dwesa posted:
I went to this web site and its 1) forum posts, 2) patreon-gated reviews, 3) reviews from 10+ years ago when bad writing was okay because it was just the internet
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Mar 13, 2018 10:09
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Peanut Butler posted:I went to this web site and its 1) forum posts, 2) patreon-gated reviews, 3) reviews from 10+ years ago when bad writing was okay because it was just the internet Finally a site where I have a chance at employment.
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Mar 13, 2018 10:18
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bessantj posted:
What a good avatar
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Mar 13, 2018 11:49
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: Finally a site where I have a chance at employment.
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RIP
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Mar 13, 2018 21:54
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And nothing of value was lost. (I say this as someone who likes FO3, as well.)
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Mar 13, 2018 21:56
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Aw what the gently caress, that mod was shaping up to be amazing. I'm calling bullshit, Tale of Two Wastelands is still up and working just fine because it requires owning both games. There's clearly a way to do it and have whiny idiot game publisher lawyers be okay with it. I don't buy their saying that it's impossible, not with Gamebryo being so easy to port stuff between games. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 00:28
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FO4:NV is still being worked on too, though. So it's not all bad news?
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Mar 14, 2018 00:37
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CJacobs posted:Aw what the gently caress, that mod was shaping up to be amazing. The reason that ToTW worked was because New Vegas runs on a fork of the Fallout 3 version of Gamebryo. There are some differences, but New Vegas was designed out of the box to be a stand alone spinoff title that reused a lot of 3's final assets and data. Bethesda's fork of Gamebryo, the Creation Engine, doesn't care about backwards compatibility with Gamebryo titles at all. You can't port all the content from Oblivion or Fallout 3 to Skyrim. You can't port all the content from Skyrim to Fallout 4. That said, I'm curious as to what kind of legal issue they're facing with the voice acting. I figure that they could create some software to take the original voice files and convert them to the format that Fallout 4 needs.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:54
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That would be using assets from a completely different game, effectively stealing them. None of the graphical or other assets they were using were from Fallout 3, I imagine.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:56
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Kavak posted:That would be using assets from a completely different game, effectively stealing them. None of the graphical or other assets they were using were from Fallout 3, I imagine. No, you own both games. You, the game player, have to own both games, the installer just does the switcheroo of files from one place to another. That's how Tale of Two Wastelands worked and there was never any trouble over that, so why not just do that for the voice files from Fallout 3 to 4? Again, the end user does this so nobody's taking anything from anybody. No Fallout 3 assets are redistributed, just copied from the game that you own to the other game that you own. Obviously it wouldn't work for the other assets, the engines are different now, but how different could the voice files be? (If they can't use them, I assume Very)
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Mar 14, 2018 02:30
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Midnight Voyager posted:That's how Tale of Two Wastelands worked and there was never any trouble over that, so why not just do that for the voice files from Fallout 3 to 4? I'm not sure that's possible.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:33
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Midnight Voyager posted:Obviously it wouldn't work for the other assets, the engines are different now, but how different could the voice files be? (If they can't use them, I assume Very) They're packaged as different file types, so very incompatible. At the same time, though, I don't know what's stopping them from making audio conversion a part of the install process.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:34
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Couldn't you literally just rename mp3s and place them in Oblivion? I'm sure it's not that way anymore.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:41
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turn off the TV posted:They're packaged as different file types, so very incompatible. At the same time, though, I don't know what's stopping them from making audio conversion a part of the install process. Yeah, I remember running an audio converter and some stuff to run a custom radio station in New Vegas. Leaves a bit of room for error, but it is doable. I can only assume the issue is more complicated.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:47
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Midnight Voyager posted:Yeah, I remember running an audio converter and some stuff to run a custom radio station in New Vegas. Leaves a bit of room for error, but it is doable. I'm not sure if it actually is more complicated or that those involved in these two projects are just really dumb.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:53
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turn off the TV posted:I'm not sure if it actually is more complicated or that those involved in these two projects are just really dumb. Maybe they realized they were in way over their head and this was a good excuse to ditch and run.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:46
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Apparently the claimed issue is Bethesda said that even client-side conversion of audio from FO3 -> FO4 formats was said legally problematic from their perspective for some reason? Which apparently doesn't affect FO3 in NV (since no conversion?) or any of the other conversion projects (Skyblivion etc)? Different VO contracts? Dunno. EDIT: Apparently there is precedent - a similar thing happened in Morroblivion, some textures from Morrowind weren't able to be converted over to Oblivion for legal reasons, so they were remade. I guess this is a similar issue with the FO3 voice-work, but on a larger more problematic scale. lurksion fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 04:31
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The issue that Morroblivion probably ran into was distribution rather than conversion. You can't convert things like meshes and textures to newer formats in the same way that you can convert .mp3 files to .ogg, the latter can be almost entirely automated and the former needs to be done manually. I really can't think of a reason to drop the mod because of sound files other than not knowing that it is, in fact, legal to convert .mp3 files to .ogg so long as you don't share said .ogg files. turn off the TV fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 04:55
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If their excuse was that developing their own middleware to batch convert the files from the old format to the new one was too difficult or not part of their plan, then I'd accept that. Because it is definitely possible, otherwise there wouldn't be any mods on the nexus that port FO3/New Vegas content to 4 (of which there are several), but it may just be outside their scope. What we've been told though is that it's a legal situation with no way around it according to Bethsoft and so they have to stop, which is clearly untrue. edit: But even then, like you say, the tools already exist elsewhere so surely they could be copied or even better just packaged in with the installer like with Tale of Two Wastelands. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 05:01
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CJacobs posted:What we've been told though is that it's a legal situation with no way around it according to Bethsoft and so they have to stop, which is clearly untrue. It is not clearly untrue. We know nothing about the license terms from the voice talent, but it is certainly not impossible that (a) they do not permit use other than in the final Fallout 3 and (b) they require Bethesda to police third parties to the extent possible regarding (a).
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Mar 14, 2018 05:06
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turn off the TV posted:You can't convert things like meshes and textures to newer formats in the same way that you can convert .mp3 files to .ogg, the latter can be almost entirely automated and the former needs to be done manually. e.g. Skyrim Special meshes have an automated conversion tool to upgrade old nifs from Skyrim. Counter example is FO4 textures changed how some of the texture maps were interpreted resulting in actual need to rework them. lurksion fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 05:19
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ulmont posted:It is not clearly untrue. We know nothing about the license terms from the voice talent, but it is certainly not impossible that (a) they do not permit use other than in the final Fallout 3 and (b) they require Bethesda to police third parties to the extent possible regarding (a). It's clearly untrue because Tale of Two Wastelands exists and would violate that policy. Tale of Two Wastelands requires both games to be installed but it doesn't read the files from one directory to the other, it copies them to a shared directory and uses that instead.
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Mar 14, 2018 05:51
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lurksion posted:Not true? Requires knowledge of the underlying formats and may not always be possible if features are very different. Skyrim to also Skyrim is very different than Morrowind to Oblivion.
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Mar 14, 2018 06:05
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CJacobs posted:It's clearly untrue because Tale of Two Wastelands exists and would violate that policy. Tale of Two Wastelands requires both games to be installed but it doesn't read the files from one directory to the other, it copies them to a shared directory and uses that instead. That doesn't make it untrue, it just means there is an aspect at play here we aren't privy to. Consider it thoughtfully for a moment, the options for 'untrue' are... The FO4/3 team are lying with really nothing at all to gain in the slightest or Bethesda is lying to them about there being an issue but 1) Why would they bother lying when they have any number of legitimate rights muscles to flex and 2) That still kills the project in it's boots anyway, unless you wanna take them to court to prove it isn't true??
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Mar 14, 2018 07:29
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What happened to that Ultima 5 remake using Dungeon Siege? I think the creators made it so that the mod will only install if you have a copy of the original Ultima 5 installed in your PC as well.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:44
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Tale of Two Wastelands is probably just as illegal as F4CW is. Maybe the only difference is that the CW team asked Bethesda about legal matters and the TTW team didn't.
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Mar 14, 2018 15:10
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The MSJ posted:What happened to that Ultima 5 remake using Dungeon Siege? I think the creators made it so that the mod will only install if you have a copy of the original Ultima 5 installed in your PC as well. Ultima V: Lazarus. Nope. I have U5 of course, but I didn't have it installed. Played almost all the way through it before a weird ship bug left me with no way to finish the game.  I know they got around the music problem by just composing their own versions of everything - not sure about any other assets, but there certainly wasn't a "conversion" process that I could see.
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Mar 14, 2018 15:28
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Simsmagic posted:Tale of Two Wastelands is probably just as illegal as F4CW is. Maybe the only difference is that the CW team asked Bethesda about legal matters and the TTW team didn't. My understanding is that they were planning to pull audio assets out of Fallout 3 and put them into the mod for download. This is different from Take of Two Wastelands, which just includes an extractor that pulls the necessary files from an already existing installation. By comparison, the New Vegas in Fallout 4 project has decided to continue by just redubbing all of the dialogue which is... ambitious, to say the least. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 15:30
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The issue is complex as hell. There are a half dozen possible reasons. Under the DMCA circumventing the copy-protection system, no matter how poorly done is a crime. From the legal lens of a moron looking at the absolute bare bones facts, the middleware needed to pull all the assets and convert them to a new engine could possibly count as circumvention. Plus scripting all that into an installer would be a massive MASSIVE pain in the dick, and would require some specific skillsets to get done in a way that doesn't just gently caress everything up forever on any machine other than the test build box. Contractual obligations. The VA's contract might have explicitly specified 'for use in FO3 and DLC titles of same only' to keep them from being hosed if Bethesda decides to reprise their role in FO4 or some lovely browser game or whatever. Bethesda might not give a poo poo, but let them know that the VA's contract agency or whatever doesn't like what they're hearing and just FYI you'll get your asses sued off. Distribution issues. Bethesda retains sole rights to distribute any assets they created, so packing up and making available for download all the special sauce, VA work and sound files is something Bethesda needs to care about to maintain a bunch of legal rights as a game developer. They can circumvent it to an extent with the EULA in the game concerning mods, but using assets they got under license from others, or work done by other groups could run afoul of issues. It most likely is a combination of bits and pieces of the above issues. Without knowing specifically what issues were raised, all we can do is hope someone comes up with the middleware so FA4:NV sounds exactly the same as FONV did.
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Mar 14, 2018 16:46
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On the other hand, the software needed to open BSA files already exists, the software to convert .mp3 to .ogg already exists, voice actor contracts have no impact on this, and there is no actual reason or need to redistribute the original sound files.
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Mar 14, 2018 16:56
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turn off the TV posted:On the other hand, the software needed to open BSA files already exists, the software to convert .mp3 to .ogg already exists, voice actor contracts have no impact on this, and there is no actual reason or need to redistribute the original sound files. The VA contracts might have quite a bit to do with it, prohibiting derivative works that include their VA work would be a pretty standard contract clause, and it's on Bethesda to enforce it. The fact that the entire mod is a legal gray area doesn't help things, especially if the legal team for Liam Neeson or Ron Perlman complain at Bethesda. A C&D letter is easy to send and expensive to fight, easier to pass the buck to the modders than deal with it yourself.
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Mar 14, 2018 19:01
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It doesn't include their va work
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Mar 14, 2018 19:18
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If they were selling the mod you'd have a point, but they aren't, it's free. You also would have a point if including the sound files in the mod download was their only option, but it's not, there are alternatives that they've decided not to explore.
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Mar 14, 2018 19:19
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itt people bend over backwards to defend a corporation
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Mar 14, 2018 19:23
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CJacobs posted:If they were selling the mod you'd have a point, but they aren't, it's free. You also would have a point if including the sound files in the mod download was their only option, but it's not, there are alternatives that they've decided not to explore. That's not how those contracts work. Bethesda licenses the voicework which means that someone else owns it and can decide if they want to release it's use for derivative projects. You can certainly try to make the argument that it would count as fair use, but given that it's literally remaking the original work, i'd have a hard time buying it, and from the sounds of it their legal advisor came to the same conclusion. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 20:29
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turn off the TV posted:On the other hand, the software needed to open BSA files already exists, the software to convert .mp3 to .ogg already exists, voice actor contracts have no impact on this, and there is no actual reason or need to redistribute the original sound files. If it was just sound files they would've said that. It's specifically voice work that prevents the project from being completed. It is 100% about voice actor contracts. I don't know why you're being purposefully dense about this. As for TTW, because they share an engine, it's not them porting 3 into NV. It's them putting NV systems into 3 and putting models from the other games into each other. It's extremely different than recreating an entire game in a different engine. Anywhich way though, it's a ton of hassle to get around to recreate a poo poo game. Like someone trying to use the DO4M engine to remake Doom64.
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Mar 14, 2018 20:40
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Nasgate posted:If it was just sound files they would've said that. It's specifically voice work that prevents the project from being completed. It is 100% about voice actor contracts. I don't know why you're being purposefully dense about this. Reminder of the thing I said like 2 posts ago that the files are extracted from both games and then copied into a shared directory for use in the mod, a thing that you and the other internet lawyer guy are saying is what's causing the problem when Bethsoft very obviously doesn't care because TTW has existed without conflict for 8 years despite getting the exact same news coverage as this new project. Also, their distribution license doesn't matter because nothing is being redistributed.
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Mar 14, 2018 20:49
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You can't actually sue someone for distributing your copyrighted material as part of a derivative work if they are not, in fact, distributing your copyrighted material in a derivative work.Nasgate posted:As for TTW, because they share an engine, it's not them porting 3 into NV. It's them putting NV systems into 3 and putting models from the other games into each other. It's extremely different than recreating an entire game in a different engine. Meanwhile, one second in google later: 
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Mar 14, 2018 20:49
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Keeshhound posted:That's not how those contracts work. Bethesda licenses the voicework which means that someone else owns it and can decide if they want to release it's use for derivative projects. You can certainly try to make the argument that it would count as fair use, but given that it's literally remaking the original work, i'd have a hard time buying it, and from the sounds of it their legal advisor came to the same conclusion. efb. ^^ yeah there's also a very real chance the judge would just toss the case immediately silentsnack fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 20:51
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Bethesda's Fallout sucks more than inexpert legal arguments made from incomplete knowledge.
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Mar 14, 2018 20:57
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