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zapplez posted:Grab yerself a Blue Star this is poo poo here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEvQOPUHGH8
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Mar 15, 2018 06:22
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James Baud fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 07:58
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JawKnee posted:this is poo poo Not to derail too much further but either of these songs should be embedded in the background of this thread, that'd be great.
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Mar 15, 2018 10:24
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James Baud posted:I'm not a member of the Sikh community so my contact with the non-activist under-50 crowd, too young to be invested in the battles of the 80s, is filled with "not this again, I hear enough about it from [parents/grandparents]." whenever the topic comes up. This almost mirrors my experience with Quebec separatism with the obvious exception that French Canadians weren't killed. Your suggestion that it's Liberals feeding the media is plausible. It's too bad Singh isn't clearer with his message. He should know better by now. AFAIK he has not condoned or called for violent actions in his political life. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Mar 15, 2018 12:52
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Daily Xtra's Arshy Mann has been doing a lot of twitter commentary on the issue of Sikh separatism in Canada lately, including the Trudeau/Atwal affair. https://twitter.com/ArshyMann However, he lacks in terms of original reporting through DX, mostly because he appears to be their Bruce McArthur guy. I heard him on this podcast, if you're interested, but it was only part of what they discussed. https://twitter.com/CANADALAND/status/971021378223837185 I can't say I'm much more familiar with anyone else covering the issue than that, but there's a start, anyway.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:31
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EvidenceBasedQuack posted:This almost mirrors my experience with Quebec separatism with the obvious exception that French Canadians weren't killed. So like Pierre Laporte doesn't exist?
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Mar 15, 2018 15:21
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You do realize aside from killing a liberal cabinet minister the FLQ did have a bombing campaign that killed a bunch of people right? Also there was the Patriotes rebellion thing too.
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Mar 15, 2018 15:51
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bunnyofdoom posted:So like Pierre Laporte doesn't exist? I wish Pierre Polievre didn't exist. 
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Mar 15, 2018 15:56
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In these early 2010/2011 videos Singh is trashing Dosanjh for... something... It's all Punjabi so I have no idea what is being discussed. I don't recall this controversy at all and I've found little detail googling so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29tGPpIClgw&t=646s
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Mar 15, 2018 15:57
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Well there goes Singh's "love and courage" messaging.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:10
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I was at Costco last night and a short man with a kid or two in tow was blocking an aisle getting samples. Guy turns around and it's Yasir Naqvi. I was gonna say something dumb about the election but decided it wasn't the time /place. He could tell I recognized him and seemed relieved when I kept my trap shut. His family really seemed to enjoy their Kirkland Ham samples. Anyway that's my CanPol story. Hope you enjoyed. Math You fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 16:14
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I'm really unimpressed with Singh right now but I can't help commenting on the massive racist double standard in how he's being treated so far compared to how Chrystia Freeland was given a pass for repeatedly praising her grandfather Michael Chomiak, a man who actively collaborated with the Nazis and who edited a newspaper that had columns praising the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Krakow. And unlike Singh, Freeland actually has significant sway over policies that impact our relations with her home country and its neighbors. Of course weird Ukrainian ethno-nationalism just doesn't creep people out the way any movement of turban wearing people does. Freeland's own family member was the person who originally uncovered the archival evidence that her grandfather was actively pro-Nazi but she kept praising him, literally calling him her "biggest political influence" and saying how his patriotism inspired her, and everyone in the media and the rest of the country will give her a pass. I bet Singh won't get that benefit of the doubt despite the fact the Sikh's are overall probably a more sympathetic group than World War II era Ukrainian nationalists.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:20
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There's certainly some similarities between the Ukrainians and Sikhs. With both groups they're large and active enough that if you're not pandering to their pet political causes you're probably a terrible politician. Politically easier to do so with Ukrainians since the only country that gets mad is Russia.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:25
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And theyre white.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:40
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And their "independence movement" didn't bomb an airliner flying from Canada.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:41
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PT6A posted:And their "independence movement" didn't bomb an airliner flying from Canada. Chomiak's contribution to the Ukrainian independence movement was moving to Poland and collaborating with our enemies during this obscure conflict known as "World War II", you may have heard of it, a couple Canadians were even injured.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:51
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Sure, her hero was a Nazi collaborator, but at least he wasn't involved in anything untoward.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:51
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Helsing posted:Chomiak's contribution to the Ukrainian independence movement was moving to Poland and collaborating with our enemies during this obscure conflict known as "World War II", you may have heard of it, a couple Canadians were even injured. Ukrainians as a current group of voters don't really care about that, though. Some Sikhs involved in the Khalistan movement still harbour what would appear to be at least a significant soft spot for the Air India bombers. Freeland's grandpappy is a separate issue. I agree she should've been pressed harder on it.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:06
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PT6A posted:Ukrainians as a current group of voters don't really care about that, though. Some Sikhs involved in the Khalistan movement still harbour what would appear to be at least a significant soft spot for the Air India bombers. you say this like there isn't an active military conflict involving neonazis in Ukraine right this minute
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Mar 15, 2018 17:18
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lowly abject turd posted:you say this like there isn't an active military conflict involving neonazis in Ukraine right this minute To be honest, I don't know what the gently caress is going on in Ukraine right now apart from the fact that Russia is trying to invade some part of it or something (which is bad) and every Ukrainian I've dealt with since that conflict started will bitch and moan about it endlessly, frequently while heavily intoxicated (also bad). If Ukraine were brimming with neo-Nazis and I didn't have to care about their annexation by Russia, it would actually make me very happy. But I mistrust any news I get out of that region, because I believe both Russians and Ukrainians are lying to support their cause, just like when Russia lies about "terrorists" in Syria fighting Al-Assad's government.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:22
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The Post has a new story about Singh speaking alongside another speaker at a National Sikh Youth Federation thing in the UK. http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/as-jagmeet-singh-condemns-terrorism-second-video-shows-him-speaking-alongside-sikh-separatist Based on my reading of it, and the short video clip they provide, Jagmeet doesn't actually endorse violence but he's sitting next to a guy who does. quote:A video with clips of the event posted to YouTube by NSYF shows Singh speaking to an audience about Sikh principles of equality and of “independence, of sovereignty.” This article spends more time discussing Shamsher Singh's past comments and beliefs than it does Jagmeet Singh's. The bolded section above is it for reporting on Jagmeet's involvement at this event in the 1036-word article. People are raising the notion that this is now a patter, that Singh is going to Sikh things where some people may be in favour of Khalistani goals.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:26
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My friend's wife is Sikh as she said the independence movement is a lot bigger with the diaspora than with Sikhs in India. She said it's really popular among younger people too; maybe because they're looking for an identity.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:28
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Leofish posted:Jagmeet doesn't actually endorse violence but he's sitting next to a guy who does. But they're both brown and wearing turbans, right?  Yes, Jagmeet has a lot to answer for, what with sharing a race, religion, and physical proximity with an extremist.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:31
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If you want to know what's going on in the Ukraine and eastern europe in general this is a pretty good account to follow: https://twitter.com/defendinghistor?lang=en
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Mar 15, 2018 17:42
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PT6A posted:Ukrainians as a current group of voters don't really care about that, though. Some Sikhs involved in the Khalistan movement still harbour what would appear to be at least a significant soft spot for the Air India bombers. Ukrainian Canadians literally build shrines to members of the SS who participated in the mass ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime. Today the racist mythologizing around this unit - which members of the Ukrainian community actively fund and support - is intricately tied up in the construction of an ethno-nationalist Ukrainian identity: [quote=Multiculturalism, memory, and ritualization: Ukrainian nationalist monuments in Edmonton, Alberta by Per A. Rudling, Pages 733-768 | Received 02 Nov 2010, Accepted 18 May 2011, Published online: 19 Sep 2011 - The Journal of Nationalism and Ethnicity Volume 39, 2011 - Issue 5] Abstract Canadians of Ukrainian descent constitute a significant part of the population of the Albertan capital. Among other things, their presence is felt in the public space as Ukrainian monuments constitute a part of the landscape. The article studies three key monuments, physical manifestations of the ideology of local Ukrainian nationalist elites in Edmonton: a 1973 monument to nationalist leader Roman Shukhevych, a 1976 memorial constructed by the Ukrainian Waffen-SS in Edmonton, and a 1983 memorial to the 1932–1933 famine in the Ukrainian SSR. Representing a narrative of suffering, resistance, and redemption, all three monuments were organized by the same activists and are representative for the selective memory of an “ethnic” elite, which presents nationalist ideology as authentic Ukrainian cultural heritage. The narrative is based partly upon an uncritical cult of totalitarian, anti-Semitic, and terroristic political figures, whose war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and collaboration with Nazi Germany the nationalists deny and obfuscate. The article argues that government support and direct public funding has strengthened the radicals within the community and helped promulgate their mythology. In the case of the Ukrainian Canadian political elite, official multiculturalism underwrites a narrative at odds with the liberal democratic values it was intended to promote. The failure to deconstruct the “ethnic” building blocks of Canadian multiculturalism and the willingness to accept at face value the primordial claims and nationalist myths of “ethnic” groups has given Canadian multiculturalism the character of multi-nationalism. [/quote] This isn't some dead issue from the past either. There's an ongoing war in Ukraine right now in which these same ultra-right nationalist figures are being rehabilitated and Freeland is in charge of our foreign ministry. While people don't like to talk about it much the mainstream Western press has repeatedly reported on the role of neo-Nazi groups in the current Ukrainian conflict. The Hill, posted:There are indeed neo-Nazi formations in Ukraine. This has been overwhelmingly confirmed by nearly every major Western outlet. The fact that analysts are able to dismiss it as propaganda disseminated by Moscow is profoundly disturbing. It is especially disturbing given the current surge of neo-Nazis and white supremacists across the globe. This is every bit as much of a live issue as the Khalistan separatism stuff. In fact, unlike Khalistan, it's a conflict that Canada is directly involved in and where our current foreign minister has a largely unexamined background cutting her teeth in Ukrainian nationalist politics during her teens and 20s. But of course the media will never treat this the same way they will treat Singh's questionable affiliations because there's a massive racist double standard at play.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:47
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Helsing posted:This is every bit as much of a live issue as the Khalistan separatism stuff. In fact, unlike Khalistan, it's a conflict that Canada is directly involved in and where our current foreign minister has a largely unexamined background cutting her teeth in Ukrainian nationalist politics during her teens and 20s. But of course the media will never treat this the same way they will treat Singh's questionable affiliations because there's a massive racist double standard at play. Being NDP isn't a race.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:48
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bunnyofdoom posted:So like Pierre Laporte doesn't exist? I meant the Canadian government wasn't intentionally killing French Canadians.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:50
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Helsing posted:Ukrainian Canadians literally build shrines to members of the SS who participated in the mass ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime. Today the racist mythologizing around this unit - which members of the Ukrainian community actively fund and support - is intricately tied up in the construction of an ethno-nationalist Ukrainian identity: Well, then, I'll admit here that I was wrong, and gently caress the Ukrainians as an organized political force in Canada. I thought the Ukrainians I dealt with were standard racist white people, but I'm more than willing to believe that they're Nazi sympathizers, looking back on some of the interactions I've had. I agree that the media should publicize this more widely, and make a bigger deal out of it. Thank you for being reasonable and presenting this information!
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Mar 15, 2018 17:54
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PT6A posted:Well, then, I'll admit here that I was wrong, and gently caress the Ukrainians as an organized political force in Canada. I thought the Ukrainians I dealt with were standard racist white people, but I'm more than willing to believe that they're Nazi sympathizers, looking back on some of the interactions I've had. In fairness I'm pretty sure that a lot of Ukrainians, especially young ones, are largely indifferent to this poo poo or have only a vague sense of the implications of supporting some of the people that their grandparents or parents are passionately supportive toward. Sort of like how a lot of Jewish people who are otherwise liberal will have very little knowledge of specific Israeli crimes but will remain reflexively defensive of Israel. The sin is more one of willful ignorance than active malice, just like us Old Stock Canadians overlooking the genocide of the natives. Doesn't make it OK but I want to be clear that the average Ukrainian Canadian probably isn't an outright Nazi sympathizer.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:01
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Helsing posted:In fairness I'm pretty sure that a lot of Ukrainians, especially young ones, are largely indifferent to this poo poo or have only a vague sense of the implications of supporting some of the people that their grandparents or parents are passionately supportive toward. Sort of like how a lot of Jewish people who are otherwise liberal will have very little knowledge of specific Israeli crimes but will remain reflexively defensive of Israel. The sin is more one of willful ignorance than active malice, just like us Old Stock Canadians overlooking the genocide of the natives. Doesn't make it OK but I want to be clear that the average Ukrainian Canadian probably isn't an outright Nazi sympathizer. Of course not, but the ones I'm talking about that I've run into probably were. I remember thinking they were oddly racist even by Alberta oilfield standards, so I would not be even slightly surprised to find out they sympathized with Nazis or neo-Nazis.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:03
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infernal machines posted:But they're both brown and wearing turbans, right? Admittedly, the video linked in the NatPo piece is short and heavily edited. It cuts in and out of each speaker without providing a lot of context. I haven't looked into whether there is a longer raw video. I also don't know who Jagmeet appears to be speaking about because I haven't done nearly enough research into this issue.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:08
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Having done a similar amount of research as you, I will go out on a limb and say NatPo is making hay out of this because their audience is racist shitbird old-stock Canadians who will eat up the guilt by association angle because it dovetails nicely with their overwhelming but otherwise suppressed racism.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:14
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Helsing posted:I'm really unimpressed with Singh right now but I can't help commenting on the massive racist double standard in how he's being treated so far compared to how Chrystia Freeland was given a pass for repeatedly praising her grandfather Michael Chomiak, a man who actively collaborated with the Nazis and who edited a newspaper that had columns praising the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Krakow. And unlike Singh, Freeland actually has significant sway over policies that impact our relations with her home country and its neighbors. I wouldn’t say she got a pass, it’s just that the news cycle moved on from the issue that was really not a huge deal relatively speaking. It wasn’t like she directly was involved in nazi sympathizing and said all the right things afterward so unless she was going to resign why kick the dead horse?
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Mar 15, 2018 18:19
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infernal machines posted:Having done a similar amount of research as you, I will go out on a limb and say NatPo is making hay out of this because their audience is racist shitbird old-stock Canadians who will eat up the guilt by association angle because it dovetails nicely with their overwhelming but otherwise suppressed racism. CBC is just good, objective journalism though and they're also making sure the general population is aware of Singh's strong, controversial opinions. http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/jagmeet-singh-1.4576838
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Mar 15, 2018 18:25
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infernal machines posted:Having done a similar amount of research as you, I will go out on a limb and say NatPo is making hay out of this because their audience is racist shitbird old-stock Canadians who will eat up the guilt by association angle because it dovetails nicely with their overwhelming but otherwise suppressed racism. I would love to see greater reporting on this issue from actual Sikhs and people who know what they're talking about. Why does it matter? How big of a deal is it? Since Air India, what has happened within the movement in India and in Canada?
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Mar 15, 2018 18:25
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Postess with the Mostest posted:CBC is just good, objective journalism though and they're also making sure the general population is aware of Singh's strong, controversial opinions. quote:Robyn Urback is an opinion columnist with CBC News and a producer with the CBC's Opinion section. She previously worked as a columnist and editorial board member at the National Post.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:26
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my morning jackass posted:I wouldn’t say she got a pass, it’s just that the news cycle moved on from the issue that was really not a huge deal relatively speaking. It wasn’t like she directly was involved in nazi sympathizing and said all the right things afterward so unless she was going to resign why kick the dead horse? A man attends a cultural event also attended by a member of an extremist group, he is ever afterward hounded by questions about his beliefs and affiliations. A woman declares that her personal hero was a Nazi collaborator, the news cycle moves on.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:29
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infernal machines posted:Robyn Urback is an opinion columnist with CBC News and a producer with the CBC's Opinion section. She previously worked as a columnist and editorial board member at the National Post. Oh right, let's condemn her for who she used to associate with.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:47
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Touché But has she ever denied being a racist? Simply saying "all racism is bad" is not a clarification. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 18:49
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again actual ongoing armed conflict in Ukraine vs a largely dormant Khalistani independence movement. I don't know how it's possible to treat this as the media just spontaneously moving on from freeland(driven by the invisible hand maybe) while each story about singh goes back further and further in time in search of increasingly tenuous connections to something is supposed to be what edit: phone turned Khalistan to Tajikistan lowly abject turd fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 19:05
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