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I did not need that mental image
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Mar 15, 2018 04:49
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Xenocides posted:Pretty sure they meant the only chieftain on Azeroth not to get caught. Frostmaw’s chief (Thrall’s dad) was dead. That leaves only the chieftains of Dragonmaw and Bleeding Hollow dying and it is covered. Not sure if that contradicts lore. The Frostwolves themselves were effectively wiped out during Gul'Dan's purge of the ranks after Warcraft 1. Of the rest in the Warcraft 2 manual, 2 were wiped out by other members of the Horde (Twilight Hammer and Stormreavers), three were tossed into the camps (Blackrock, Gap Tooth Grin and Bleeding Hollow), while one descended further into Demonic Anarchy (Burning Blade). And then there was the Dragonmaw who basically hid in a mountain until the Day of the Dragon.
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Mar 15, 2018 05:32
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Calax posted:The Frostwolves themselves were effectively wiped out during Gul'Dan's purge of the ranks after Warcraft 1. Of the rest in the Warcraft 2 manual, 2 were wiped out by other members of the Horde (Twilight Hammer and Stormreavers), three were tossed into the camps (Blackrock, Gap Tooth Grin and Bleeding Hollow), while one descended further into Demonic Anarchy (Burning Blade). And then there was the Dragonmaw who basically hid in a mountain until the Day of the Dragon. After which they were tossed in the camps. Though it's noteworthy that by that time Zuluhed wasn't with them; Zuluhed actually screwed off to Draenor with a portion of the clan.. Players killed him personally in Burning Crusade. Worth noting, the Lord of the Clans novel was before the Novelization of the first and second wars, and thus both Kargath and Kilrogg crossing to Azeroth before Khadgar closed the portal had not yet been retconned. Neither appeared in the novel at all, though both appeared in the cancelled "Lord of the Clans" game it was based on (though that had a whole bunch of other various lore tidbits that would later be retconned... though I'm not convinced that's the right term, since they never made it to release to become canon in the first place)
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Mar 15, 2018 06:45
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Grom hellscream, famous for evading capture, is first met by the player of wc3 in a cage
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Mar 15, 2018 13:39
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FoolyCharged posted:Grom hellscream, famous for evading capture, is first met by the player of wc3 in a cage This is because Grom is actually kind of an idiot who happens to be very good at moments of directed violence, but is bad at long term planning.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:This is because Grom is actually kind of an idiot who happens to be very good at moments of directed violence, but is bad at long term planning. truly an orc's orc
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Mar 15, 2018 16:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:This is because Grom is actually kind of an idiot who happens to be very good at moments of directed violence, but is bad at long term planning. He has his moments; like in the Lord of the Clans novel, when he got pissed at his men for taking a human child captive, knowing that its parents would track it down and probably find them. He proceeded to order then to take it back where they found him (blindfolded of course, just as they brought him here). He also relents to Thrall's wisdom when Grom wants to storm the camps immediately, but Thrall points out that Winter's approaching fast, and feeding an army would be hardest. Thrall uses the delay to seek out the Frostwolf clan.
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Mar 15, 2018 21:11
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I personally remember Grom for imitating rock stars with his Pissed lines during the Warcraft 2 Beyond the Dark Portal expansion. Glad to know they fleshed out his personality more since then. I'd ask DN to talk more about the Orc Internment Camps, a very important part of Warcraft lore, in his upcoming Lore update, but that's probably more appropriate for the Orc Campaign. Unless of course there's something in the backstory of Arthas where he administered some of those camps and was very brutal. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. Know of anything like that, DN? Or anything else in Arthas's backstory that could have foreshadowed what he becomes?
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Mar 15, 2018 21:16
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Nope. Nothing in Arthas' backstory. The kid literally went insane trying to save his people from certain death.
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Mar 15, 2018 21:23
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achtungnight posted:I personally remember Grom for imitating rock stars with his Pissed lines during the Warcraft 2 Beyond the Dark Portal expansion. Glad to know they fleshed out his personality more since then. I'd ask DN to talk more about the Orc Internment Camps, a very important part of Warcraft lore, in his upcoming Lore update, but that's probably more appropriate for the Orc Campaign. Unless of course there's something in the backstory of Arthas where he administered some of those camps and was very brutal. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. Know of anything like that, DN? Or anything else in Arthas's backstory that could have foreshadowed what he becomes? Not actually the most important spoiler in the world but technically a campaign spoiler One of groms pissed lines in the game is him singing "I can see clearly now, the rain is gone"
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Mar 15, 2018 21:27
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Grom- Good to hear he's still singing.  Arthas- I wouldn't be surprised if someone tries to retcon something of a dark past for him one of these days. Or not, since it also seems there are a lot of people who want to paint Arthas as a good guy no matter what among Blizzard fans before and even while he went crazy. Not saying this is a bad thing this time, just making an observation. I think it's safe to say, though, that after what he did in the last update, it's pretty clear he's all bad guy now. Except if you still want to cast him as the good guy, of course- as some people might.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:13
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achtungnight posted:Grom- Good to hear he's still singing. As of the present in WoW, they emphatically have not. We're talking "literally ripped the frozen heart from his chest and threw it into a bottomless abyss because it was a weakness" level of saying absolutely no he's a villain through and through. Player death knights occasionally chat with his ghost in the extant WoW expansion where he confirms he has no regrets and no remorse.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:24
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Arthas is a full villain now. That doesn't mean he was secretly a serial killer as a kid or anything like that, and trying to make him look evil pre human campaign just cheapens his character.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:26
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Though amusingly, there is an official comic positing an alternate universe where Jaina stayed with Arthas through this, and at this point in the story it was Jaina who took up Frostmourne instead and killed both Mal'Ganis and Arthas with it afterwards.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:30
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The only particular bit of darkness that was retroactively added to Arthas's backstory was his steed, Invincible. Basically, he was present for his horse's birth, and grew up alongside him... until one fateful winter day, where he took a leap he shouldn't have, ended up missing the mark, and was forced to put Invincible down (since he still wasn't all that good at calling upon the Light to heal others at the time).
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Mar 15, 2018 22:32
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RevolverDivider- A good point. I was only curious about the official Lore as far as his backstory. It is common in some fantasy media to paint future villains as always villains in some way. If that is not the case here thus far, that is good too. Perhaps Blizzard shares your opinion and it will never be the case. I only asked out of curiosity, not to judge. Thanks to you, Cythereal, and Siegkrow for letting me know. If anyone else wants to add Lore they know of, that's fine too. I'll probably say little about it other than acknowledgement until after we see more of Arthas in the game- is it a spoiler to say that we will? I don't mean to discuss his game future by bringing him up btw, just his past as a Human. It's clear he's not Human anymore. [nods at the posts about Invincible and Dark Jaina that came in while I was typing]
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Mar 15, 2018 22:32
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Cythereal posted:Though amusingly, there is an official comic positing an alternate universe where Jaina stayed with Arthas through this, and at this point in the story it was Jaina who took up Frostmourne instead and killed both Mal'Ganis and Arthas with it afterwards. Stayed with him and stopped him from taking the hard choices by doing them before him.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:33
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Cythereal posted:As of the present in WoW, they emphatically have not. We're talking "literally ripped the frozen heart from his chest and threw it into a bottomless abyss because it was a weakness" level of saying absolutely no he's a villain through and through. Player death knights occasionally chat with his ghost in the extant WoW expansion where he confirms he has no regrets and no remorse. Although, the implication of the questline (and the Arthas book) is that the heart he ripped out was the last piece of his humanity (which now sits at the bottom of a pit as a ruby). Even then the death they gave him was something more akin to "Released from Possession" rather than "Horrible Villain meets his end".
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Mar 16, 2018 02:46
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Also, if you do the quest line for the legendary axe weapon from the final raid in Wrath, one of the rewards you get at the end is a box containing a few items that held sentimental value for Arthas before he fell from grace, including an old locket with Jaina's picture in it, an old training sword that he used when Muradin taught him how to fight, and an old tabard for the Order of the Silver Hand. So it comes across a bit as Blizzard trying to have their cake and eat it, too. "Yes, he was totally a completely, utterly irredeemable villainous monster with no shred of humanity left in him! ... except for these few indicators that there was still some of the old Arthas left in there somewhere." 
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Mar 16, 2018 05:35
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It's more that the entire point of Arthas was he could've been a great force for good, he could've been the hero everyone thought he was, and he chose to be a monster; he chose to do the wrong thing. Arthas' story is one of tragedy, because he was absolutely primed to be a hero of humanity and great king, and he wrecks it all by being hotheaded, prideful and narrowly focused on the immediate future. The Culling of Stratholme is his start of darkness not because he does it, but because he does it in the most awful way possible and actively pushes away his allies instead of talking to them. Then afterwards instead of going and talking to them and explaining himself he goes off on a personal quest for vengeance for no reason other than his own pride.
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Mar 16, 2018 08:28
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The Scourge are great. Free healthcare, post-mortem racial harmony, a loving undead community/family, the works -- Arthas was doing the right thing trying to zombify everyone on the planet.
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Mar 16, 2018 10:53
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Hiveminded posted:The Scourge are great. Free healthcare, post-mortem racial harmony, a loving undead community/family, the works -- Arthas was doing the right thing trying to zombify everyone on the planet. You even get dental insurance.
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Mar 16, 2018 11:10
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Arthas did nothing wrong.
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Mar 16, 2018 13:02
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Instead of arguing, I'm just going to hum a certain Gary Jules song to myself in the corner. "I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad... it's a very very Mad World!"
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Mar 16, 2018 13:29
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lobster22221 posted:You even get dental insurance. But booze just doesn't work the same. Kel'Thuzad apologizes to player death knights about that in WoW.
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Mar 16, 2018 13:57
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Thing is, the Scourge IS a big happy family. It is weird. Everything outside of it is the enemy, but if you were part of the scourge (and sentient) the whole faction has this self aware humor to it, you can see it in some places in ICC, northernd, the DK starting zone...
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Mar 16, 2018 14:14
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Cythereal posted:But booze just doesn't work the same. Kel'Thuzad apologizes to player death knights about that in WoW. Tangentially related to death knights, but I remember reading once that if you roll up an undead death knight in WoW, it means that your dude changed sides something like four times? Spoilers for the warcraft III expansion below. Alliance to Scourge-- when you died Scourge to Forsaken-- when you joined the WoW Undead faction Forsaken to Scourge-- when you became a death knight Scourge to Forsaken-- when you went back to the Horde
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Mar 16, 2018 15:10
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Cythereal posted:But booze just doesn't work the same. Kel'Thuzad apologizes to player death knights about that in WoW. Oh that sounds hilarious, is there a sauce?
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Mar 16, 2018 15:29
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Siegkrow posted:Oh that sounds hilarious, is there a sauce? Yeah, one of the books lying around Acherus that you can read during the death knight starting sequence is a "Scourge 101: Now that you're an undead death knight, what to expect and how to deal with it, by Kel'Thuzad" book. One of the pages is "Alcohol is simply not the same, my apologies."
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Mar 16, 2018 15:35
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Cythereal posted:Yeah, one of the books lying around Acherus that you can read during the death knight starting sequence is a "Scourge 101: Now that you're an undead death knight, what to expect and how to deal with it, by Kel'Thuzad" book. One of the pages is "Alcohol is simply not the same, my apologies." Blizzard humor is the best. 
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Mar 16, 2018 17:08
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Just how dead the Undead are is super inconsistent, by the way. A lot of the older ones end up mutating in weird ways.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:33
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wiegieman posted:Just how dead the Undead are is super inconsistent, by the way. A lot of the older ones end up mutating in weird ways. What makes one Undead is incredibly vague in Warcraft to be fair. As an example it is possible to argue Arthas becomes Undead upon picking up Frostmourne. As the drat thing eats his soul then and there.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:12
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Lord_Magmar posted:What makes one Undead is incredibly vague in Warcraft to be fair. As an example it is possible to argue Arthas becomes Undead upon picking up Frostmourne. As the drat thing eats his soul then and there. Was he immediately made undead then? Or was he just put under the lich kings full control, and just died later?
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Mar 16, 2018 19:16
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lobster22221 posted:Was he immediately made undead then? Or was he just put under the lich kings full control, and just died later? He straddled somewhere between undead and human, but I would consider he was full unread the moment he removed his heart.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:32
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HowlingGod posted:He straddled somewhere between undead and human, but I would consider he was full unread the moment he removed his heart. I think that is reasonable. You are not exact undead if you are still alive, and taking out your heart would definitely put an end to that. People die when they are killed. Was only using spoilers because the lich king has only been referred to as the dark lord.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:47
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Hiveminded posted:The Scourge are great. Free healthcare, post-mortem racial harmony, a loving undead community/family, the works -- Arthas was doing the right thing trying to zombify everyone on the planet. I mean, they view all other races as inferior and want to make them all undead. I am not sure if that counts as racial harmony.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:03
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Mooseontheloose posted:I mean, they view all other races as inferior and want to make them all undead. I am not sure if that counts as racial harmony. If all the Non Star-Bellied Sneetches would have stars then all would be in harmony. Can’t argue with the logic.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:20
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I'd point out that, in WoW, we still dunno if playable DKs are alive with a lot of necrotic energy or outright undead (excepting forsaken)
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Mar 16, 2018 21:49
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This has me thinking, necromancers are not undead right? If that is the case, why can they be damaged by holy light? Is that lore justified or is it just gameplay?
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Mar 16, 2018 21:51
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Necromancers are probably close to being Undead thanks to their use of related Magic... which has already been mentioned as to blame for their corpse-like appearance.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:58
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