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Lt. Danger posted:okay now someone defend the vampires ghosts are canon in fallout universe don't see why vampires cant be there too
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Mar 16, 2018 14:29
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To be totally fair, it's more obvious with Fallout 3 because there's deliberate efforts in Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas to cover the agriculture issue - much of A lot of the Hub's wealth comes from its farms and herds exporting food all over the place, and there are cattle drives up and down the NCR in Fallout 2. And in Fallout NV a major factor for the NCR expansion and settlement of Mojave is to farm the area because they know they're going to be facing shortages soon if they don't do something.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:35
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Wolfsheim posted:Now you can walk across the Mojave desert...in real time! Wallow in the immersion of taking 10+ actual hours to walk from the Hoover Dam to Vegas! I'm not looking for every major one, but stuff like 'here's a major enemy faction with ties to multiple companions, maybe we should do something with it' is pretty low hanging fruit.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:54
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Byzantine posted:tldr; "where's the farms?!" Yeah, and logically they shouldn't have been able to last for loving 200 years the way they are. Again, Fallout's not a "realistic" series. It has you fighting giant ants with plasma rifles and your robot buddies. But all the non-Bethesda games actually put effort into making the game world seem like an immersive world. They had to shrink stuff down from real scale because of memory constraints, but you still have stuff like farms, water pipelines, power plants, interstate trade, etc. It's not realism, just logical consistency. Fallout 3 just falls apart completely when you look at it even a little closely. 200 years is a really long time, but people are still living in scrap metal shacks in a blasted rocky wasteland and eating packaged food old enough to count as a historical artifact as if the war was a few weeks ago. It makes even less sense because the Elder Scrolls games all have this stuff, so we know they can actually consider it and build a world that has it. They just don't when it comes to Fallout and it comes off as lazy.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:02
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Keeshhound posted:Honestly that's (marginally) less of an issue than that there's anything left to be found at all. Even with a drastically reduced population it's really hard to believe they didn't run out by year 20. I like the detail of The Great Winter occuring 20 years after the bombs, which killed off many of the suvivors due to failing crops. The idea that there were societies that somewhat functioned after the blasts, before collapsing again due to crops failing, does help to explain why some parts of the country, like the big cities, never was really rebuilt, and why previously nuked areas are just now being resettled, as it becomes clean enough. If people who survived the blasts and fallout moved away before everything was looted, to just succumb to starvation before people were able to move back, would leave some resources to be found 200 years after, but even that way, its a its all a bit of a longshot to find almost fully stacked malls. Edit: Apparently The Great Winter happened 50 years after the bombs, not 20 years. And The Long Winter appears to be a Fallout/Pony fictions, so better not refer to it as that again.  Rincewinds fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 15:10
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isndl posted:Some day we might get our sandbox in full scale and it will be glorious as we spend literal days trekking through wilderness and starving to death because we turned on survival mode. I meant to say this earlier (maybe I did and forgot) but when someone mentioned that updating Fallout 3 to 4 was like updating Daggerfall to Oblivion, that just struck me as absolutely bafflingly awful. Just endless empty miles and potato faces.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:28
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I don't think it's even necessarily about consistency or immersion or whatever, but a more general sense of 'authenticity'. Farms and supply lines are present in New Vegas because the story as a whole is about the clash of empires over territory and the strains and tensions inherent to that. Fallout 3 is ostensibly about bringing new life to the Capital Wasteland but the actual game world is more a grab-bag of disconnected post-apocalyptic micro-stories - folk tales in the vein of Mad Max if you're charitable, a theme park if you're not. And of course sometimes the stories aren't even post-apocalyptic at all: the vampires, the Lovecraft references, the superheroes. Of course, Fallout 3 is actually about reintroducing the intellectual property to a new audience, so...
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Mar 16, 2018 16:08
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I kinda like the Lovecraft references. 
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Mar 16, 2018 16:31
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think it's even necessarily about consistency or immersion or whatever, but a more general sense of 'authenticity'. Farms and supply lines are present in New Vegas because the story as a whole is about the clash of empires over territory and the strains and tensions inherent to that. Fallout 3 is ostensibly about bringing new life to the Capital Wasteland but the actual game world is more a grab-bag of disconnected post-apocalyptic micro-stories - folk tales in the vein of Mad Max if you're charitable, a theme park if you're not. And of course sometimes the stories aren't even post-apocalyptic at all: the vampires, the Lovecraft references, the superheroes. The way I've heard it described is that Fallout 3 and 4 are basically theme parks, where nothing is actually a connected world and they just throw in random "interesting things" like darts on a dartboard.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:34
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Also I've noticed how after adding stuff to Fallout 3 that may or may not make a ton of sense but were at least neat references to do once, they kept doing it in Fallout 4 and sometimes made it even more extreme. The Children of Atom go from four or five people in one town to having an entire settlement in the most irradiated part of the wasteland. One quest with some minor Lovecraftian references now gets multiple, including immortal people using alien artifacts that are literally magic. A museum about the old world satirizing worship of a distorted historical America turns into the entire population of Boston cosplaying the Revolutionary War or baseball teams. Super mutants being common because of a vault experiment in the Capitol Wasteland turns into super mutants filling the streets as mooks that even a first level Sole Survivor can kill armies of. An old Star Wars vs. Star Trek website by Michael Wong, stardestroyer.net, talked about this problem in sci-fi and called it a "brain bug". It was about things like the Ferengi starting out as a serious alien race that occasionally displayed greed and turning into actual worshipers of money and mercantile business, or someone going into the Jefferies tubes to fix a problem once and later seasons having practically all maintenance take place in these cramped tubes. One kinda iconic thing gets latched on and distorted until it's all you have.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:46
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To be fair NV isn't immune to that phenomenom, Jacobstown and Marcus as a whole dont contribute much to the larger story at all, and in fact Marcus' story is just "good guy mutant! Wants to make a peaceful mutant town! Again!" Seemed like it was just an excuse for obsidian to get to see Michael Dorn again. Which I can absolutely understand.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:56
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair NV isn't immune to that phenomenom, Jacobstown and Marcus as a whole dont contribute much to the larger story at all, and in fact Marcus' story is just "good guy mutant! Wants to make a peaceful mutant town! Again!" It doesn't contribute a ton, but it at least makes sense compared to how Fallout 3 is structured. It's separate from the rest of the Mojave for good reason (super mutants and nightkin are so dangerous that humans avoid or actively persecute the ones who still maintain their intelligence and sanity), but they still show how they've got agriculture and water supplies so you can understand how they survive without trade. Fallout 3 probably would have just had them living in the lodge with 10 pre-war food items in the kitchen. One interesting thing you can do when you meet the Boomers is to pass all the Speech checks with the historian kid as you ask him questions. It does a lot to establish how they do stuff like grow legumes to add protein in their diet without animal husbandry and use solar power to supplement their generators. And even though they're isolated and bomb anyone who gets close, Jack has managed to fall in love with a girl from afar because she came with the Crimson Caravan in their failed attempts to start trade. They're not total enigmas that nobody has even seen in person.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:04
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Randaconda posted:I kinda like the Lovecraft references. Well they don't lead anywhere particularly interesting, at least not in vanilla FO3 where the Dunwich Building basically ends as "and then the guy was a ghoul and I shot him."
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Mar 16, 2018 17:12
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chitoryu12 posted:An old Star Wars vs. Star Trek website by Michael Wong, stardestroyer.net, talked about this problem in sci-fi and called it a "brain bug". It was about things like the Ferengi starting out as a serious alien race that occasionally displayed greed and turning into actual worshipers of money and mercantile business, or someone going into the Jefferies tubes to fix a problem once and later seasons having practically all maintenance take place in these cramped tubes. One kinda iconic thing gets latched on and distorted until it's all you have. The tubes were a set, once you build the drat thing you're stuck with it. The Ferengi were basically a failed villain concept that got reworked. There's a lot more of an excuse for this in TV where the assets are comparatively more expensive than they are in a game but lol Fallout 4
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Mar 16, 2018 17:13
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think it's even necessarily about consistency or immersion or whatever, but a more general sense of 'authenticity'. Farms and supply lines are present in New Vegas because the story as a whole is about the clash of empires over territory and the strains and tensions inherent to that. Fallout 3 is ostensibly about bringing new life to the Capital Wasteland but the actual game world is more a grab-bag of disconnected post-apocalyptic micro-stories - folk tales in the vein of Mad Max if you're charitable, a theme park if you're not. And of course sometimes the stories aren't even post-apocalyptic at all: the vampires, the Lovecraft references, the superheroes. It did strike me in Fallout 3 that the "main quests" for a bunch of locations aren't about, like, saving them at all. In Megaton you can choose to blow it up, or you can "save" it by choosing not to. Rivet City, the biggest quest I remember there was finding a historical document for their museum
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Mar 16, 2018 17:22
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2house2fly posted:It did strike me in Fallout 3 that the "main quests" for a bunch of locations aren't about, like, saving them at all. In Megaton you can choose to blow it up, or you can "save" it by choosing not to. Rivet City, the biggest quest I remember there was finding a historical document for their museum Also I found Rivet City kind of annoying to maneuver through, because all of the levels were nearly identical steel corridors. At least with one of the towns the layout is easy to figure out, but it's like a maze without anything really interesting to stumble upon.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:37
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair NV isn't immune to that phenomenom, Jacobstown and Marcus as a whole dont contribute much to the larger story at all, and in fact Marcus' story is just "good guy mutant! Wants to make a peaceful mutant town! Again!" I don't know that I'd agree with that. Jacobstown is definitely a side area, and now that I think about it it's kind of a shame that there wasn't a Side Bets subquest about asking them to take in Vegas evacuees during the dam showdown, but it also serves as an example of some of the shadier poo poo the NCR get up to, and it has Dr. Henry, who has a major role in both Rex and Arcade's personal quests. It definitely didn't need Marcus, but like you said, I'm not gonna complain about more Michael Dorn, either.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:48
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It's there for flavour, just like Black Mountain Radio. Doesn't affect anything but it does show there is more to the wasteland that is trying to live in separate but functional societies. (Though functional might not be the best word for the state of Utobitha) And it carries the thematic weight of the old ways getting pushed to the boundaries. West Coast Brotherhood, Enclave Remnants, Khans and other FO1-2 gangs are all on the edge of extinction as humanity reasserts it's dominance in the west.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:59
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chitoryu12 posted:Also I've noticed how after adding stuff to Fallout 3 that may or may not make a ton of sense but were at least neat references to do once, they kept doing it in Fallout 4 and sometimes made it even more extreme. The Children of Atom go from four or five people in one town to having an entire settlement in the most irradiated part of the wasteland. One quest with some minor Lovecraftian references now gets multiple, including immortal people using alien artifacts that are literally magic. A museum about the old world satirizing worship of a distorted historical America turns into the entire population of Boston cosplaying the Revolutionary War or baseball teams. Super mutants being common because of a vault experiment in the Capitol Wasteland turns into super mutants filling the streets as mooks that even a first level Sole Survivor can kill armies of. Yeah. Also, Liberty Prime is funny in fo3 but then he sucks in fo4. Etc
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Mar 16, 2018 18:04
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair NV isn't immune to that phenomenom, Jacobstown and Marcus as a whole dont contribute much to the larger story at all, and in fact Marcus' story is just "good guy mutant! Wants to make a peaceful mutant town! Again!" What about the doctor dude that lives there? The one that you can use to perform surgery on Rex, or help Lily, that also comes up later in the story? At least Jacobstown is an actual town, with like, houses and poo poo. Fallout 3 had TWO loving towns and I'm still mad about that to this day.
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Mar 16, 2018 18:12
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corn in the bible posted:Yeah. Also, Liberty Prime is funny in fo3 but then he sucks in fo4. Etc I completely forgot that they brought Liberty Prime back! The big, dramatic ending with funny anti-communist quotes and they just...repeat it.
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Mar 16, 2018 18:16
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:What about the doctor dude that lives there? The one that you can use to perform surgery on Rex, or help Lily, that also comes up later in the story? At least Jacobstown is an actual town, with like, houses and poo poo. Fallout 3 had TWO loving towns and I'm still mad about that to this day. Didn't 4 also?
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Mar 16, 2018 18:16
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corn in the bible posted:Yeah. Also, Liberty Prime is funny in fo3 but then he sucks in fo4. Etc From a gameplay perspective he was pretty poo poo in both. "For the game's finale, you will... Follow an invincible giant robot as he literally nukes your enemies out of existence. Isn't this exciting!?"
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Mar 16, 2018 18:16
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:What about the doctor dude that lives there? The one that you can use to perform surgery on Rex, or help Lily, that also comes up later in the story? At least Jacobstown is an actual town, with like, houses and poo poo. Fallout 3 had TWO loving towns and I'm still mad about that to this day. They're not entirely disconnected, but they're definitely a nostalgic "remember this?" thing. As-is their biggest contributions are being where you recruit Lily and where the doctor trying to cure nightkin (who could have been at Utobitha with some rewriting) resides.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:47
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If Henry had been at utobitha we wouldn't have gotten Raul's comments on the radio.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:55
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Henry has to be at Jacobstown because he's also a Fallout 2 ref E: Hello, Raul! Or should that be... HHHOLA! 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 20:03
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Neurolimal posted:They're not entirely disconnected, but they're definitely a nostalgic "remember this?" thing. As-is their biggest contributions are being where you recruit Lily and where the doctor trying to cure nightkin (who could have been at Utobitha with some rewriting) resides. You do know that Utobitha is the result of Tabitha inciting a revolt against Marcus after the mutant's first tried settling there, right? That's why Niel is watching them and warning people away; Marcus stationed him there.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:08
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I found the idiot super mutants in Jacobstown to be weirdly cute. They're like big dumb babies when they aren't trying to murder you.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:24
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ApeHawk posted:I would not trust Bethesda to remaster New Vegas. Skyrim Special Edition is literally just Skyrim, with no mechanical changes, ported to the newer engine with all its graphical and stability improvements. New Vegas Special Edition would probably be similarly fine.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:44
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Keeshhound posted:You do know that Utobitha is the result of Tabitha inciting a revolt against Marcus after the mutant's first tried settling there, right? That's why Niel is watching them and warning people away; Marcus stationed him there. I know. That's why I specified "with some rewriting".
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Mar 16, 2018 21:14
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Internet Kraken posted:I found the idiot super mutants in Jacobstown to be weirdly cute. They're like big dumb babies when they aren't trying to murder you. Keene was more interesting than I thought. He definitely needed more dialogue, because he has the usual nightkin voice but also has his human intelligence and charisma. It's a real shock when you think he's just another crazy nightkin who hates you and suddenly he's actually intimidating and well-spoken.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:44
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chitoryu12 posted:Keene was more interesting than I thought. He definitely needed more dialogue, because he has the usual nightkin voice but also has his human intelligence and charisma. It's a real shock when you think he's just another crazy nightkin who hates you and suddenly he's actually intimidating and well-spoken. That quest annoyed me because it's one of the few that can only get a good resolution via a high-level Speech check, whereas most of NV is good about either putting in more legwork or having a high Barter or Science or something to help resolve things instead. A rare miss.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:52
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Was there any way to get Cas as companion besides a one time attempt 75 speech check?
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Mar 16, 2018 22:24
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Katt posted:Was there any way to get Cas as companion besides a one time attempt 75 speech check? Several ways, actually. My favourite is that with a high endurance stat you can challenge her to a drinking match and beat her after downing five 40oz Whiskeys.
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Mar 16, 2018 22:35
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Katt posted:Was there any way to get Cas as companion besides a one time attempt 75 speech check? quote:* With a Barter skill of 50, you can choose to sweeten the deal by throwing in an extra 750 caps. I'm okay with not being able to access everything or the best endings without certain skill levels. Raising your Speech to 100 by the time you hit Jacobstown should be par for the course anyway.
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Mar 16, 2018 22:40
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair NV isn't immune to that phenomenom, Jacobstown and Marcus as a whole dont contribute much to the larger story at all, and in fact Marcus' story is just "good guy mutant! Wants to make a peaceful mutant town! Again!" I strongly disagree with this, mostly because I played New Vegas without having played Fallout 1 and 2. Jacobstown is the best kind of reference, the kind that seems perfectly natural in the world even if you don't know what it's referencing. If you go into the game not even knowing what a Super mutant is it's nice to find a place that explains "What are these terrifying blue things that keep trying to kill me and seem to have severe schizophrenia?" It fleshes out the world and gives a lot of backstory that not everyone needs, but is nice to be able to find in game without having to consult a wiki.
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Mar 17, 2018 00:13
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I strongly disagree with this, mostly because I played New Vegas without having played Fallout 1 and 2. Jacobstown is the best kind of reference, the kind that seems perfectly natural in the world even if you don't know what it's referencing. If you go into the game not even knowing what a Super mutant is it's nice to find a place that explains "What are these terrifying blue things that keep trying to kill me and seem to have severe schizophrenia?" It fleshes out the world and gives a lot of backstory that not everyone needs, but is nice to be able to find in game without having to consult a wiki. I do like that you can actually clue into the nightkin as early as Fallout 3 where it mentions that constant Stealth Boy use can result in mental degradation. If you remember that, you'll encounter invisible super mutants and could be able to put two and two together.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:00
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Lt. Danger posted:okay now someone defend the vampires They're not vampires, they're cannibals whose leader has latched onto vampire lore.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:03
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Even as a Fallout 3 fan I won't pretend the vampire quest isn't dumb as hell.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:04
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Byzantine posted:They're not vampires, they're cannibals whose leader has latched onto vampire lore. no one has an inherent irresistable urge to eat human flesh. that is not how it works! it is a nonsense
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Mar 17, 2018 01:20
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