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Grendels Dad posted:People want their characters to have some consistency between movies so gently caress off with statements like this. They do have consistency. Padme doesn't give a poo poo about the problems of the lower classes. Her desire in Episode 1 is to safeguard her people, not right the wrongs of the universe and/or do favours for her personal friends. Freeing Shmi wouldn't have solved or changed anything that happened. Giving her a life of privilege on another planet wouldn't have kept her from eventual death and Anakin from the pain of loss.
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Mar 18, 2018 05:37
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Nodosaur posted:I really don't want to fall back on the "George Lucas is stupid" argument, but it's more that he treats his in-universe justifications as absolute without always considering the wider implications. And so you get no standard of exchange for republic credits (if there was such a system, Qui Gon would have used it and not bothered with the pod race scheme), or Watto not even willing to deal even though it's very much in his best interest and profit. It's more important to the author that Shmi and Anakin be kept apart. tatooine works on barter the jedi have nothing valuable to barter exe not their ship they place their ship in a bet for the hyperdrive and anakin
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Mar 18, 2018 06:17
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sassassin posted:No one had to go buy Shmi's freedom because old man Lars did it. We have no proof Lars wasn't lying to Anakin about freeing Shimi.
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Mar 18, 2018 06:36
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sassassin posted:They do have consistency. Padme doesn't give a poo poo about the problems of the lower classes. Her desire in Episode 1 is to safeguard her people, not right the wrongs of the universe and/or do favours for her personal friends. Wanting to stop her planet from being murdered in concentration camps is "not caring about the lower classes" gotcha. Does it not occur to anyone that maybe she spent those ten years between episodes doing things like making the Gungans not second-class citizens? Or trying to find a peaceful solution to an imminent Civil War? It's hard to blame her for not being the one to free this one singular slave in a foreign polity when she's doing her best to achieve the most good possible.
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Mar 18, 2018 07:01
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galagazombie posted:Wanting to stop her planet from being murdered in concentration camps is "not caring about the lower classes" gotcha. Does it not occur to anyone that maybe she spent those ten years between episodes doing things like making the Gungans not second-class citizens? Or trying to find a peaceful solution to an imminent Civil War? It's hard to blame her for not being the one to free this one singular slave in a foreign polity when she's doing her best to achieve the most good possible. Her people aren't the lower classes of Naboo. They're living in posh villas while the Gungans are forced underground. It doesn't occur to anyone that she spent her term fighting for Gungan rights because the films make no suggestion that she has done this. Apart from Senator Jar Jar we don't see any Gungans again. I don't blame her for not freeing Shmi because Shmi was freed, and still suffered and died. Life's funny that way.
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Mar 18, 2018 07:33
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sassassin posted:Her people aren't the lower classes of Naboo. They're living in posh villas while the Gungans are forced underground. Did I miss the part where Nute Gunray fiendishly gloated how he was only putting the upper class in camps? Was there a scene where some Battle-Droids brought up some prisoners and he let them go because they were only Lower-Middle-Class? And the very fact that the Gungans are now represented in the Senate and can walk around in Theed shows that she has been making progress on that front.
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Mar 18, 2018 07:40
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Spacebump posted:We have no proof Lars wasn't lying to Anakin about freeing Shimi. Anakin is a telepath.
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Mar 18, 2018 09:39
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For what it’s worth, Padme’s political career in The Clone Wars has her particularly focused on humanitarian efforts, fighting corruption in various government and financial institutions, and representing the disadvantaged. There’s also a story arc that established the Jedi as having wiped out a slave trade empire belonging to a race called the Zyggerians in the past, which implies the Hutts and their influence on such matters are a concern to them and not a matter Qui Gon could have handled in isolation. That’s all offscreen stuff, so take it as you will and whatnot.
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Mar 18, 2018 10:04
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The two relevant things about Padme not saving Shmi are that Anakin is taken away by the Jedi, not Padme, so there's no particular reason for her to think it's her responsibility, and the scene where Padme thanks R2 for saving the ship and rewards him with being "cleaned up".
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Mar 18, 2018 11:02
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Why would Padme or the Jedi buy Shmi? She's past breeding age and doesn't even seem capable of heavy labor.
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Mar 18, 2018 11:29
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sassassin posted:Her people aren't the lower classes of Naboo. They're living in posh villas while the Gungans are forced underground. Clearly, re: Jar Jar, she at least instituted affirmative action.
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Mar 18, 2018 13:50
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:That's hardly a plot hole, Tatooine is such a remote backwater that, early in the very first film, Luke says it's the place farthest from the bright center to the universe. Not to mention Watto probably doesn't want the Hutts asking him where he suddenly got a bunch of Republic credits. They're hostile jurisdictions. Except that any reasonable person can see immediately that there are going to be a million ways to do business there regardless -- no one's complaining about not getting into the minutiae of intergalactic currency exchanges, just go buy some precious metals or spaceship fuel or gently caress, just send two spaceships there and trade Watto one of them. Sending a half-dozen guys with a cargo bay full of gold to go buy this old lady is so unremarkably obvious that they wouldn't even need to explain it, even with that dumb line about how they don't take Republic credits on Tatooine. I do think Lucas did just write that in and never thought about it again, because of course that just blocks off trading with Tatooine entirely.
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Mar 18, 2018 16:26
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Maybe it'll turn out in 9 that the First Order has been bankrolling their ships with NotBitCoin
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Mar 18, 2018 17:09
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Phenotype posted:Except that any reasonable person can see immediately that there are going to be a million ways to do business there regardless -- no one's complaining about not getting into the minutiae of intergalactic currency exchanges, just go buy some precious metals or spaceship fuel or gently caress, just send two spaceships there and trade Watto one of them. Sending a half-dozen guys with a cargo bay full of gold to go buy this old lady is so unremarkably obvious that they wouldn't even need to explain it, even with that dumb line about how they don't take Republic credits on Tatooine. I do think Lucas did just write that in and never thought about it again, because of course that just blocks off trading with Tatooine entirely. Who are you suggesting do this- the Jedi, or Padme?
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Mar 18, 2018 17:23
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galagazombie posted:Did I miss the part where Nute Gunray fiendishly gloated how he was only putting the upper class in camps? Was there a scene where some Battle-Droids brought up some prisoners and he let them go because they were only Lower-Middle-Class? And the very fact that the Gungans are now represented in the Senate and can walk around in Theed shows that she has been making progress on that front. There are no lower middle class in Theed.
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Mar 18, 2018 17:41
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Phenotype posted:Except that any reasonable person can see immediately that there are going to be a million ways to do business there regardless -- no one's complaining about not getting into the minutiae of intergalactic currency exchanges, just go buy some precious metals or spaceship fuel or gently caress, just send two spaceships there and trade Watto one of them. Sending a half-dozen guys with a cargo bay full of gold to go buy this old lady is so unremarkably obvious that they wouldn't even need to explain it, even with that dumb line about how they don't take Republic credits on Tatooine. I do think Lucas did just write that in and never thought about it again, because of course that just blocks off trading with Tatooine entirely. The post I was replying to was in context of their original visit to Tatooine in TPM.
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Mar 18, 2018 18:20
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Jewmanji posted:Who are you suggesting do this- the Jedi, or Padme? Either? Or even Anakin himself once he's old enough? I get that maybe the Jedi were supposed to be inept and out-of-touch, but they're still shown as well-meaning and compassionate, and I have a really hard time picturing the Jedi saying "lol no gently caress her" when Anakin asks them to go rescue his mother from slavery. All the more so when Yoda and Mace Windu have a vested interest in Anakin's training and keeping him from the dark side. And like, it's absolutely gonna come up. Kids the age of young Anakin get homesick when they go off to summer camp for a week, there's no way he isn't going to be concerned for his mother who's stuck on the other end of the galaxy enslaved to a dickhead alien on a desert shithole of a planet.
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Mar 18, 2018 19:56
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sassassin posted:There are no lower middle class in Theed. Then Theed is a good example of a successful Socialist Democracy where the largess of society is used to enrich all citizens. She has in-fact even began to expand it's good fortunes to polities such as the Gungan city-states. Making her a more successful proponent of Socialism than any real world example.
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Mar 18, 2018 20:31
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Phenotype posted:Either? Or even Anakin himself once he's old enough? I get that maybe the Jedi were supposed to be inept and out-of-touch, but they're still shown as well-meaning and compassionate, and I have a really hard time picturing the Jedi saying "lol no gently caress her" when Anakin asks them to go rescue his mother from slavery. All the more so when Yoda and Mace Windu have a vested interest in Anakin's training and keeping him from the dark side. And like, it's absolutely gonna come up. Kids the age of young Anakin get homesick when they go off to summer camp for a week, there's no way he isn't going to be concerned for his mother who's stuck on the other end of the galaxy enslaved to a dickhead alien on a desert shithole of a planet. The Jedi disapprove of attachments, and that includes to parents. The first time that Anakin is able to decide for himself what planet to go to, he goes to Tatooine to find his mother. This happened after he was a padawan for ten years. You may not like what that says about the Jedi, but you can't say that the movie is wrong for depicting them that way.
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Mar 18, 2018 20:54
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The Gungans are richer than the Naboo—they can construct enormous underwater cities and have better military technology. If they’d bothered to import a couple of blasters they would have annihilated the robot army.
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Mar 18, 2018 20:55
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Phenotype posted:Either? Or even Anakin himself once he's old enough? I get that maybe the Jedi were supposed to be inept and out-of-touch, but they're still shown as well-meaning and compassionate, and I have a really hard time picturing the Jedi saying "lol no gently caress her" when Anakin asks them to go rescue his mother from slavery. All the more so when Yoda and Mace Windu have a vested interest in Anakin's training and keeping him from the dark side. And like, it's absolutely gonna come up. Kids the age of young Anakin get homesick when they go off to summer camp for a week, there's no way he isn't going to be concerned for his mother who's stuck on the other end of the galaxy enslaved to a dickhead alien on a desert shithole of a planet. How do you have a hard time picturing it when Qui-Gon basically says that in the film itself? "Keeping Anakin from the Dark side" means severing him from his mother, not having her move in down the road and keep her safe from all harm indefinitely. That's the Jedi way.
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Mar 18, 2018 21:14
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porfiria posted:The Gungans are richer than the Naboo—they can construct enormous underwater cities and have better military technology. If they’d bothered to import a couple of blasters they would have annihilated the robot army. I'd rather have enormous above ground villas tbh. There's monsters down there.
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Mar 18, 2018 21:15
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sassassin posted:I'd rather have enormous above ground villas tbh. There's monsters down there. But living underwater nets you the ability to communicate with and potentially tame said monsters 
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Mar 18, 2018 21:35
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Why didn't Senator Jar-Jar, friend of Antikin Skywalker, and all around nice guy, not go to Tatooine and purchase Shmi?
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Mar 18, 2018 21:43
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UmOk posted:Why didn't Senator Jar-Jar, friend of Antikin Skywalker, and all around nice guy, not go to Tatooine and purchase Shmi? Slavery is a proud and storied tradition in Gungan culture.
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Mar 18, 2018 21:47
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Vinylshadow posted:But living underwater nets you the ability to communicate with and potentially tame said monsters Lol I think this dude had to special order his jedi potato sack.
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Mar 18, 2018 21:59
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Bongo Bill posted:The Jedi disapprove of attachments, and that includes to parents. I just literally cannot picture how that conversation would go without making everyone involved act like an idiot. "Obi Wan, I miss my mom. Can we please go rescue her from slavery?" "No, that's not the Jedi way. You need to detach from your parents instead." "But she's being held in terrible conditions on a brutal planet and I keep getting upset about it." "Nope, just stop thinking about her. All the high masters were concerned about your training and it's important that you don't fall to the dark side, and this is an obvious trigger for you, but its super important that she remains the prisoner of that rear end in a top hat Watto so no dice." "Okay, I'm going to accept that answer even though I'm only ten and good lord do ten-year-olds love throwing tantrums and fixating on even unimportant piddly poo poo." Like, it's just so comparatively simple for them to just go buy her and put her up somewhere safe that it's really hard to buy that they never did. Just say "Okay Anakin, we got her a nice apartment in Coruscant somewhere and a fussy little protocol droid to keep her company, now you can focus on your training without worrying that Watto's beating her because she spilled the blue milk."
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Mar 18, 2018 23:56
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Qui Gon would’ve been completely justified just killing Watto outright and freeing them both. He’s a loving slave owner. gently caress him.
sponges fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 00:15
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Phenotype posted:I just literally cannot picture how that conversation would go without making everyone involved act like an idiot. The conversation did happen. It was all the times they told Anakin to let go of his attachments. He tried, he really did. A similar one happened between him and Yoda about his premonition of Padme's death. They had a lot of high-minded words for it, but what it comes down to is that they were willing to ignore the plight of slaves, individually and collectively. The fact of the matter is that, at least from his point of view, the Jedi are evil.
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Mar 19, 2018 00:56
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euphronius posted:Luke flat out calls them hypocrites Rey's going to lead a new Jedi order offensive against the rich and exploitative ruling classes in the next trilogy.  She already seems geared to teach her new students do what's they can in the here and now versus whatever ambivalent dogmatic stricture the old Jedi clung to.
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Mar 19, 2018 00:57
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Except no, they literally couldn't because the Jedi are super rigid in their teachings.
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Mar 19, 2018 01:22
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Teek posted:Rey's going to lead a new Jedi order offensive against the rich and exploitative ruling classes in the next trilogy. If JJ doesn't gently caress it up yes
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Mar 19, 2018 01:30
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Bongo Bill posted:The conversation did happen. It was all the times they told Anakin to let go of his attachments. He tried, he really did. A similar one happened between him and Yoda about his premonition of Padme's death. They had a lot of high-minded words for it, but what it comes down to is that they were willing to ignore the plight of slaves, individually and collectively. Look, I'm not disagreeing that it's the Official Reason why no one saved Shmi, I'm just saying it's dumb. Any reasonable person (including my impressions of Obi Wan from the films) would have put the Chosen One's mother in a safe place, especially when they're already worried about his emotions and there's so much on the line. Plenty of Jedi padawan have a family that's off living safely somewhere that they then try to detach themselves from, there's no reason Anakin should have had the additional wrinkle of thinking "oh gently caress, she's being slowly worked to death" instead of "well, she's off living a happy life thanks to the Jedi."
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Mar 19, 2018 01:42
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Phenotype posted:Look, I'm not disagreeing that it's the Official Reason why no one saved Shmi, I'm just saying it's dumb. Any reasonable person (including my impressions of Obi Wan from the films) would have put the Chosen One's mother in a safe place, especially when they're already worried about his emotions and there's so much on the line. Plenty of Jedi padawan have a family that's off living safely somewhere that they then try to detach themselves from, there's no reason Anakin should have had the additional wrinkle of thinking "oh gently caress, she's being slowly worked to death" instead of "well, she's off living a happy life thanks to the Jedi." So what does it mean that they didn't?
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Mar 19, 2018 01:56
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They Jedi themselves were all indoctrinated as toddlers. They have no idea what family means or how "reasonable" it is for Anakin to not want his mom to be a slave. The Jedi's aloofness leading to the destruction of the Republic is a pretty important theme in the prequels!
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Mar 19, 2018 02:03
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sponges posted:Qui Gon would’ve been completely justified just killing Watto outright and freeing them both. He’s a loving slave owner. gently caress him. Actually yeah this probably would have solved everything. Kill Watto, free Ani and Shmi, steal the hyperdrive generator. The only issue I see is with the whole “chip implant that explodes” and whether it has a dead man’s switch (or whether you could find a way to deactivate it before leaving planet - might be bio linked to Watto to deactivate)
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Mar 19, 2018 02:18
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He could have just came back and paid Watto Instead he subjected schmi to a horrid sex slave end where her only release was the torture of sand people .
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Mar 19, 2018 02:20
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sponges posted:Qui Gon would’ve been completely justified just killing Watto outright and freeing them both. He’s a loving slave owner. gently caress him. He's an rear end in a top hat too, so it's not like there was something character-wise holding him back.
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Mar 19, 2018 02:38
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At the very least save her because you never know when you might need her to spit out another chosen one
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Mar 19, 2018 03:02
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Bongo Bill posted:So what does it mean that they didn't? It means that I think they were written poorly? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, here. What do you think it means?
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Mar 19, 2018 03:17
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