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System Metternich posted:Basically, throughout its history the Roman Catholic Church was for the longest time in a situation of conflict/competition with its Eastern (today's Orthodox) brethren. When the Great Schism happened and Rome decided that it alone truly represented the Church of Christ, this eventually meant that it needed to prosetylise in the East as well. Over the centuries, these missionary efforts as well as a bunch of political hijinks and other accidents of history led to the creation of 23 "sui iuris" (i.e. relatively autonomous within the ecclesiastical hierarchy) Churches that continued/adopted the various eastern liturgies as well as those theological traditions that weren't in conflict with Catholic doctrine while affirming papal supremacy, too. This is very clear and concise. Thank you, it gives me a template for when I get that question again.
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Mar 19, 2018 19:35
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HEY GUNS posted:??? unless the priest said ego te absolvo then it wasn't an actual sacramental absolution, I'm pretty sure form III of the rite of reconciliation is what I'm talking about
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Mar 19, 2018 19:52
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The Phlegmatist posted:unless the priest said ego te absolvo then it wasn't an actual sacramental absolution, I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure sacraments aren't magic spells that require exact words to have effect.
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Mar 19, 2018 19:56
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Cythereal posted:I'm pretty sure sacraments aren't magic spells that require exact words to have effect.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:00
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Cythereal posted:I'm pretty sure sacraments aren't magic spells that require exact words to have effect. It’s not magic, but yes there are certain phrases that if they are missing make the sacrament invalid.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:00
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Mr Enderby posted:The Anglican position is "all may, some should, none must." It's pretty common before confirmation, but otherwise rare except in high Anglo-Catholic parishes (some of which even have confessionals I’ve never been a fan of that phrase, since it implies only super serious sins like adultery and murder are worth confessing.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:07
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This is very clear and concise. Thank you, it gives me a template for when I get that question again. So they recognize the pope and the teachings of Catholic church, but do it in whatever way they like?
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Mar 19, 2018 20:13
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Thirteen Orphans posted:It’s not magic, but yes there are certain phrases that if they are missing make the sacrament invalid. Why? Overt legalism and saying that it requires very specific phrases and rules to be a Christian is something Jesus specifically warned against. HEY GUNS posted:bro have you met a catholic Many, and I've disagreed with all of them about certain things.  But I suppose this is me being a Protestant who doesn't understand this stuff and is horrified at the idea of it. Have a baby bunny. https://i.imgur.com/G4ZZsBp.mp4
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Mar 19, 2018 20:14
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Cythereal posted:Why? Overt legalism and saying that it requires very specific phrases and rules to be a Christian is something Jesus specifically warned against. If I was baptizing an adult and I said, “I baptize you in the name of the Big Man, the Earth Dweller, and the Remainer” would that person be a baptized Christian? You say he warned against specific phrases and rules, but he specifically called for baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The reason it’s not magic is because the phrases are linguistically relative to the persons using them and it isn’t the sounds that make it work, it’s acting on grace.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:21
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Sleepy creatures are rapidly becoming the best part of this thread. Not a dig on the other content, it would be hard for anything to compete.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:22
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Thirteen Orphans posted:If I was baptizing an adult and I said, “I baptize you in the name of the Big Man, the Earth Dweller, and the Remainer” would that person be a baptized Christian? If the intent of everyone involved was serious and respectful, then yes, IMO the baptism would count regardless of the exact words spoken. On the other hand, if they're deliberately parodying it and making fun, then no, it doesn't count.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:26
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Deteriorata posted:If the intent of everyone involved was serious and respectful, then yes, IMO the baptism would count regardless of the exact words spoken. I agree. God knows our hearts and intent, and judges us accordingly.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:29
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JcDent posted:So they recognize the pope and the teachings of Catholic church, but do it in whatever way they like? Not whatever way they like, it has to be approved by Rome when they are accepted. Also any Bishops raised have to be approved by the Pope.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:37
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been seeing a lot of pro-Russia fake news on Calvinist FB groups recently. dunno what this portends.Thirteen Orphans posted:Not whatever way they like, it has to be approved by Rome when they are accepted. Also any Bishops raised have to be approved by the Pope. In practice, the Vatican doesn't really exercise a lot of control over the Eastern Catholic churches. All of their bishops and Canon Law changes have to be approved but unless they started doing something really weird they're mostly left to their own devices.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:09
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Tias posted:Interestingly enough, I'm a alcoholic (no, you could tell pretty easily, but peep the following) and the 5th step of Alcoholics Anonymous is a confession: We admitted to God, ourselves and another person the exact nature of our wrongs. AA has high church Christianity as a big part of its DNA. Bill and those members who were part of predecessor groups (e.g. the Oxford Group) borrowed heavily from the spirituality they came from to develop the program. There's a really good book called "Slaying The Dragon" that talks about the American experience of alcohol treatment and some of the religious figures invovled in the birth of AA. I've often felt that the Twelve Steps are a great model of Christian faith in practice with some limitations.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:18
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A while back I watched a lecture on youtube on an Orthodox priest's perspective on AA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th8rXD3nHAU maybe of interest to some folks in this thread.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:41
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The Phlegmatist posted:been seeing a lot of pro-Russia fake news on Calvinist FB groups recently.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:44
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uh...they do know that russia belongs to my religion, not theirs, right
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Mar 19, 2018 23:15
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that’s perestroika baby
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Mar 19, 2018 23:34
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HEY GUNS posted:oh hey, putin's dudes have found calvinist facebook. god i'd like to ask one of them what they think of it all So if whatever manipulation they plan backfires and Russia sees a mass conversion to calvinism, is that the best or the worst timeline? I'm honestly not certain.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:46
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Numerical Anxiety posted:So if whatever manipulation they plan backfires and Russia sees a mass conversion to calvinism, is that the best or the worst timeline? I'm honestly not certain. They'd probably find it too optimistic.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:58
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Tias posted:On the subject of confessions: It seems a bit weird to keep short hours in the middle of the workday to take confession, even with a priest shortage. I can't speak to modern practice but I know that in Jean de Joinville's account of the Seventh Crusade he mentions soldiers confessing to each other while their siege tower was being moved into place, and there is an apocryphal story from Geoffrey Gaimar of William Rufus confessing to one of his hunting companions as he lay dying.
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Mar 20, 2018 02:56
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Not being present when most people are baptized, and not having access to baptismal records, I don't know if a given believer has been dunked or sprayed with water or what method was used or what words were said. But I am much more able to see the presence of holiness or the lack of holiness in the person as they are in the moment. That, more than records and hearsay, is the most salient evidence of the indelible mark of the Holy Spirit within a person's heart.
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Mar 20, 2018 03:12
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Deteriorata posted:If the intent of everyone involved was serious and respectful, then yes, IMO the baptism would count regardless of the exact words spoken. one of my favorite posts in these threads was about the UCC kids who created a soda and potato chips communion as part of a classroom exercise
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Mar 20, 2018 03:15
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Lutha Mahtin posted:one of my favorite posts in these threads was about the UCC kids who created a soda and potato chips communion as part of a classroom exercise Youth Sundays can be very interesting.
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Mar 20, 2018 03:26
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Can y'all please pray for me? Poor sleep all night long with fever dreams.
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Mar 20, 2018 05:45
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Pershing posted:Can y'all please pray for me? Poor sleep all night long with fever dreams.
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Mar 20, 2018 05:49
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if the Moscow Patriarchate cites a thinker who believes that God is doomed, Christ was futile, and the rule of law is alien to certain ethnicities, then we should probably stop listening to them, if we ever did in the first place
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Mar 20, 2018 06:38
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Is it time to revive the prayers for the conversion of Russia? 
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Mar 20, 2018 07:32
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Ceciltron posted:Is it time to revive the prayers for the conversion of Russia? Don't be vulgar. Even if they undertook tomorrow to scrape all the former KGB agents out of their church, it still wouldn't belong to you
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Mar 20, 2018 07:34
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HEY GUNS posted:Don't be vulgar. Even if they undertook tomorrow to scrape all the former KGB agents out of their church, it still wouldn't belong to you Trust me, I don't want it. I seek only the total consecration of Russia to the Blessed Virgin in order to circumvent nuclear war.
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Mar 20, 2018 07:37
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even if you got rid of all the ex-kgb in the orthodox church you'd still have a largely pro-putin hierarchy in place, and you'd be hard pressed to find bishop and monk candidates who aren't these days the day putin dies russia is going to get very dangerous, very fast, for everyone inside russia and probably outside of it as well, what with all the russian interference in western democracy that seems to be going around
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Mar 20, 2018 07:43
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I just spent most of a week with my students at a Native American higher education conference and, uh, the general feeling is y'all can get hosed. I mean that with no disrespect toward our Catholic posters, but many Native American groups have suffered tremendous oppression at the hands of Catholic missionaries who were granted jurisdiction by US/Canadian federal authorities. The current Jesuit missions are excellent about preserving Native culture and language while delivering a quality education, but that absolutely wasn't the case in the boarding school period through the 1960s or so.
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Mar 20, 2018 07:53
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Pellisworth posted:I just spent most of a week with my students at a Native American higher education conference and, uh, the general feeling is y'all can get hosed. what the gently caress does this have to do with the orthodox church
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Mar 20, 2018 07:56
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Pellisworth posted:I just spent most of a week with my students at a Native American higher education conference and, uh, the general feeling is y'all can get hosed. I don't feel disrespected. In the end, everything will be brought into the light. In the meantime, we must not get in the way of remembering past atrocities, which is done to ignore current catastrophes. I hope you'll have mercy on us who ask for it, including me.
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Mar 20, 2018 08:44
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HEY GUNS posted:what the gently caress does this have to do with the orthodox church not all liturgical christians tho no for real what’s the tea on russian missionaries up north i am not familiar with them at all EDIT; http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/russian/s1a.html preliminary research suggests positive results but this seems to be an overview and not from the indigenous perspective Senju Kannon fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Mar 20, 2018 |
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Mar 20, 2018 08:49
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Pershing posted:AA has high church Christianity as a big part of its DNA. Bill and those members who were part of predecessor groups (e.g. the Oxford Group) borrowed heavily from the spirituality they came from to develop the program. There's a really good book called "Slaying The Dragon" that talks about the American experience of alcohol treatment and some of the religious figures invovled in the birth of AA. Yeah, exactly. Thankfully, it has become succesfully incorporating of atheists, agnostics and other faiths (I made it through with my pagan animism intact, for example), but there are clear Oxford baggage still, even if it has been heavily modified through the years. AA is a great model of all faith, in my opinion. It recognizes first and foremost that the spiritual individual is suffering and imperfect, but still okay and deserving of boundless love and grace, maintains that building spiritual discipline and practice is important to becoming a better version of yourself, and stresses the benefits of joining communities of faith without forcing you into rigid organizations. Limitations, well, I wouldn't call them christian limitations as much as, um, natural limitations on what you can expect when you cram millions of alcoholic egos together and expect them cooperate 
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Mar 20, 2018 10:09
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Senju Kannon posted:not all liturgical christians By all accounts, though, the Orthodox missionaries were heavenly compared to the American Presbyterians. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Mar 20, 2018 |
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Mar 20, 2018 15:07
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HEY GUNS posted:uh...they do know that russia belongs to my religion, not theirs, right russia, who banned evangelization outside of church and keeps closing down non-orthodox churches specifically to keep protestants out of the country, will have a very special place prepared for protestants when they usher in the third rome. (it is in the gulag.)
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Mar 20, 2018 15:13
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Ceciltron posted:Is it time to revive the prayers for the conversion of Russia? We stopped? 
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Mar 20, 2018 16:11
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