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and before anyone says "that doesn't sound very buddhist of you" i should remind you my sect of buddhism had actual japanese fascists as members and at best failed to criticize japanese fascism and at worst collaborated with it, so honestly we're all fallen and have no hope but to accrue negative karma but at least my negative karma comes from a good place. perhaps that's amida's influence, perhaps not, but if we're all going to be sinners i'd rather not be on the side of fascists
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Mar 22, 2018 03:56
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StashAugustine posted:tbh i dont think the government should be entrapping sadbrains regardless of religion HEY GUNS posted:i don't think we should treat anybody badly i'm not entirely sure what these two posts mean but i really hope they don't mean that it isn't really messed up that (a) This guy is being labeled "a lonely nerd from a good family". Why is this really messed up? Well perhaps it's messed up because there was a teenager named Mike Brown who stole some Swishers and potentially got in a scuffle with a cop. Wait what does that have to do with this? Well after Mike Brown stole some Swishers and maybe possibly punched a cop, the cop iced him dead and newspapers around the country ran with the headline that Mike Brown was "no angel". (b) This guy was part of a "Christian" homeschool paramilitary group for teenagers. That's hosed. Consider for a moment this tweet https://twitter.com/kumailn/status/976495126871617536 but hmm oh yes let's dither on the very real subject of American media narratives when it comes to crime and how they give a pass to really wacky fringe people because they tick the checkboxes of "born here" "light skin" "says they're a Christian" ""conservative"". People die in this country EVERY DAY because of bullshit prejudice against dark skin, Islam, being queer, etc. And not just from wacky neo-Nazi bigots either, but from police, educators, doctors.
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Mar 22, 2018 04:35
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that wasn't quite what i meant, i'm also aware of and angry at media double standards on these sort of things. i'd just listened to the citations needed podcast going over cases of fbi entrapment of struggling muslims played up as isis attacks on america, which is where my statement came from.
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Mar 22, 2018 04:42
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yeah like there was the case of the muslim dudes who sat around playing fifa who got tangled up to poo poo by an fbi informant/employee. that was an awful thing but imo it's a bit different than a guy who murdered people on his own and terrorized the capital city of texas for weeks on end
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Mar 22, 2018 04:48
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i am kinda interested about what exactly this homeschool group was like on the spectrum of "bible camp" to psychopathic poo poo like ACE
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Mar 22, 2018 04:49
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StashAugustine posted:i am kinda interested about what exactly this homeschool group was like on the spectrum of "bible camp" to psychopathic poo poo like ACE quote:She mentioned that she and Conditt were a part of a social group for homeschooled kids called Righteous Invasion of Truth (RIOT). Sounds pretty nerdy to me, not particularly militaristic. Maybe he was involved in other groups, but this RIOT stuff seems pretty tame.
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Mar 22, 2018 04:53
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i don't know she descibed their social circle as "ran in the same conservative survivalist circles in high school as Conditt" "conservative survivalist" kinda describes folks like the bundy bunch and the unabomber, right? like that's a red flag Senju Kannon fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 04:56
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Senju Kannon posted:i don't know she descibed their social circle as "ran in the same [b[conservative survivalist[/b] circles in high school as Conditt" Agree, but that doesn't seem to be the RIOT stuff people are referencing. It seems more like an alternative to Scouts. He got radicalized somewhere, but I don't think that was it.
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Mar 22, 2018 05:00
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Deteriorata posted:He got radicalized somewhere
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Mar 22, 2018 05:03
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he was a disaffected 20 something white male, my guess would be the same place disaffected 20 something white males get radicalized and it's this thing called "the internet" this is kinda off topic to christianity i guess but i am really annoyed that the right in this country refuses to do anything about right wing extremism, i mean we have organizations that deradicalize white youths being defunded because it's an "attack on conservative values" or whatever. i guess it's related since the religious right has become so married to this rush to the bottom that they're practically advocating the same religiosity as klan members these days
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Mar 22, 2018 05:05
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Senju Kannon posted:he was a disaffected 20 something white male, my guess would be the same place disaffected 20 something white males get radicalized and it's this thing called "the internet" I think you'll find there are very fine people on all sides
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Mar 22, 2018 05:12
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The homeschoolers I know have a lot more in common with ISIL than the klan. Sexually oppressed young men with giant beards, white toyota tundras bristling with firepower, thirst for a holy war which cleanses this corrupt Earth with fire and coincidentally leaves them a priviliged position in the new heirarchy...
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Mar 22, 2018 05:28
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hey i drive a volvo tyvm
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Mar 22, 2018 05:29
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Deteriorata posted:Agree, but that doesn't seem to be the RIOT stuff people are referencing. It seems more like an alternative to Scouts. i have known people irl who were into the radical conservative homeschool apocalyptic scene. it isn't like scouts. sure maybe you learn how to handle a firearm and some outdoors skills, but it's for totally different reasons. scouting groups don't teach you that stuff because they subscribe to a worldview that says a New World Order is going to very soon crack down and start putting Christians into concentration camps i don't know what this guy believed but all I've heard of him sounds very similar to the kind of stuff some of my family was into for a while
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Mar 22, 2018 06:42
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I'm not super convinced the guy had racist motives. He apparently didn't mention any obvious motive in his 'confession' that was on his phone. Nothing about racial hatred or terror groups.
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Mar 22, 2018 08:55
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Yeah, his targets were all black people with activist backgrounds, and he learned making bombs in a right wing christian camp, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with his motives 
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Mar 22, 2018 09:15
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yall have got to see these photographs https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2018/mar/21/spot-the-halo-saintly-sightings-in-suburban-america-in-pictures
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Mar 22, 2018 09:26
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TOOT BOOT posted:I'm not super convinced the guy had racist motives. He apparently didn't mention any obvious motive in his 'confession' that was on his phone. Nothing about racial hatred or terror groups. eh we've only got the cops word for that right now, who knows what he said on that tape
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Mar 22, 2018 15:01
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Senju Kannon posted:and before anyone says "that doesn't sound very buddhist of you" i should remind you my sect of buddhism had actual japanese fascists as members and at best failed to criticize japanese fascism and at worst collaborated with it, so honestly we're all fallen and have no hope but to accrue negative karma but at least my negative karma comes from a good place. perhaps that's amida's influence, perhaps not, but if we're all going to be sinners i'd rather not be on the side of fascists How are we to know that certain negative actions come from "a good place" and others come from "a bad place." You seem to be dividing negative karma into negative karma that you have, and negative karma which other people have, which is like negative karma but worse. But if both strands of negative karma result in the same thing: a bad outcome, then to what degree are they ontologically different? Negative karma never comes from a good place. A good place internally is what outwardly manifests as dharma. I'd say that what I draw from Christianity is that it is both the outward and the inward that we should focus on at the same time in order to move more closely into our full humanity. So, I monitor my own thoughts so that they "do not imitate what is evil but what is good." And I endeavor to monitor my own behaviors in a like manner.
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Mar 22, 2018 15:55
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i kinda refuse to believe that being upset about social structures that oppress and murder people is the same as japanese war crimes that sort of moral relativism is what leads to refusing to condemn war crimes and allowing people to say things like “killing your enemies in war is good because they will be reborn in the pure land”
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Mar 22, 2018 16:18
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Senju Kannon posted:i kinda refuse to believe that being upset about social structures that oppress and murder people is the same as japanese war crimes
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Mar 22, 2018 17:04
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i never claimed to be a pacifist, nor against revolutionary violence to quote james hal cone, by any means black folks deem necessary
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Mar 22, 2018 17:10
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"war crimes are bad, also i deem this list of people 'fascist' please send them to the gulag tia" not the best look imo
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Mar 22, 2018 17:32
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i have never once seen any poster in this thread disagree with me when i call someone a fascist, and yet i am always accused of accusing whoever of being a fascist and like... there's a literal difference between saying "boy i wish these people faced consequences/ i wish there were some sort of revolutionary force that would wipe away this current society and create a better one" and "commit ethnic cleansing, amida nyorai is cool with it" revolutionary violence and reactionary violence are inherently different. quite frankly i'm a little disturbed y'all collapse the two into the category of "violence"
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Mar 22, 2018 17:54
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Well to be fair the difference can be subtle. Saying that, as long as we live in a world where violence solves problems it behoves us to actually examine violence and its uses without flinching.
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Mar 22, 2018 18:03
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HEY GUNS posted:yall have got to see these photographs I love this so much
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Mar 22, 2018 18:05
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"violence is bad but sometimes necessary to prevent other evils" is pretty standard doctrine
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Mar 22, 2018 18:08
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Josef bugman posted:Well to be fair the difference can be subtle. Both parties think their violence is the revolutionary one. One or the other is wrong (maybe both) and I'll hedge my moral bets with Senju Kannon. I do agree with many that violence is the least desirable way to solve a problem, and am likewise convinced that if violence is used then the problem hasn't been solved, merely replaced. My desire to commit violence is strong, though. 
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Mar 22, 2018 18:08
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What's interesting is that there is no real justification for or endorsement for violence, preventative or otherwise, in the gospels as far as I can tell. Unless you decide that Christ deciding to take a whip to some people on the steps of the Temple constitutes that endorsement. We have theology on when it's acceptable to use violence because, especially as it became a state religion, that's a question that needs answering, but it isn't one where you find an answer in the direct words of Christ as far as I know.
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Mar 22, 2018 18:12
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StashAugustine posted:"violence is bad but sometimes necessary to prevent other evils" is pretty standard doctrine I know that, but I suppose it depends on what those evils are and to what extent violence is needed. Saying that I am always more cautious of someone with power using violence, as opposed to people who do not possess as much of it. WerrWaaa posted:Both parties think their violence is the revolutionary one. One or the other is wrong (maybe both) and I'll hedge my moral bets with Senju Kannon. I do agree with many that violence is the least desirable way to solve a problem, and am likewise convinced that if violence is used then the problem hasn't been solved, merely replaced. My desire to commit violence is strong, though. I don't think it is always the least desirable, it is very easy for me to say stuff like this whilst in a reasonably well off state after all, but violence can be used to solve problems. The difficulty is 1) telling when and 2) When to stop. Night10194 posted:We have theology on when it's acceptable to use violence because, especially as it became a state religion, that's a question that needs answering, but it isn't one where you find an answer in the direct words of Christ as far as I know. I think it is at least in part becomes a question because otherwise Christianity would have ended up becoming as widespread a faith as Jainism.
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Mar 22, 2018 18:32
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At any rate, one ought to understand that violence is not for the good of the person you're doing violence to.
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Mar 22, 2018 18:35
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In fact I'll elaborate on that: to kill someone for a cause is to say that you've given up on them, that you believe no reconciliation is possible, or that the cost of reconciliation would be greater than the cost of their life. Sometimes, this is genuinely the case, but you really want to watch out if you're getting there by underestimating the value of their life rather than by appropriately valuing the cost and likelihood of reconciliation. This requires both a genuine understanding of your enemy and an honest assessment of relative power; for example, I don't believe a criminal justice system should ever kill its own citizens, because the state's power in that context is nearly absolute and the range of alternatives available to the state is huge. On the other side, revolutionary violence should be understood in the same framework as self-defense, because that's what justifies it. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 18:47
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yeah while here i'm arguing that antifascist activism can in some cases be justified i do admit there's a lot of problems with glorification of violence on the left (although i'm pretty sure a lot of those people aren't actually the ones getting violent)Tuxedo Catfish posted:On the other side, revolutionary violence should be understood in the same framework as self-defense, because that's what justifies it. agree with p much everything you said, just wanted to highlight this. there's a good bit in richard wolff's recent chapo interview where he talks about how some of the left idolizes the french revolution as an outpouring of revolutionary violence that wiped the slate clean (which is questionable history but let's roll with it), but this ignores the historical context- the peasants didn't just wake up one day and say "gently caress the king lets go storm the bastile", it was the culmination of centuries of political and economic shifts and the revolution was a reaction to the king attempting to cling to power that he'd lost control of. if you're just causing violence for the sake of violence, even from a practical perspective you're not gonna get far (cf weather underground)
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Mar 22, 2018 19:09
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The peasants weren't the ones in control of the French revolution. It was largely led by ideologues in Paris which spread outward, and was widely resisted by the actual bona-fide peasants. See the vendee uprising. It later became more of a mass movement, as the state gradually transformed into a militaristic state, as mass conscription bound the various French peoples together within the sphere of the national army. As the revolutionaries failed to provide the economic prosperity that they promised, the difference was made up for with looting from neighboring countries as they went outside of France in defense of the revolution. Try telling a French peasant in 1790 or whatever that the Revolutionaries represent him when those same Revolutionaries are replacing the church with the "Cult of the Supreme Being" or the "Cult of Reason." It's a cult of something, I'll tell you what, and it ain't reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution
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Mar 22, 2018 20:55
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Senju Kannon posted:i have never once seen any poster in this thread disagree with me when i call someone a fascist, and yet i am always accused of accusing whoever of being a fascist imo hiding behind liberal arts jargon doesn't the fact that you still think it's cool to anoint oneself arbiter of judgment, create an Other, and wish violence and death upon them
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Mar 22, 2018 21:10
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Senju Kannon posted:i have never once seen any poster in this thread disagree with me when i call someone a fascist, and yet i am always accused of accusing whoever of being a fascist Remember that time when you accused Fosco of being a fascist and earned a collective eye roll? It was only about a month ago.
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Mar 22, 2018 22:34
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Based on what I've read in this thread, I'm considerably more pacific than Senju both by natural inclination and by ideology, but I think that anyone who criticises political violence has to be careful to at least acknowledge that sometimes there is violence inherent in accepting the status quo. For example, a couple of years ago I visited Harpers Ferry (it's very pretty). A nice guide took us around the town, and narrated the events of the John Brown raid. The general thesis he presented was that Brown was honourable, but misguided, and all he brought to the town was an episode of tragic violence. What he never mentioned was the fact that over the days of the raid, when a dozen or so people were killed, unknown thousands of slaves were beaten to death, died early from overwork, were raped, killed themselves in despair, and otherwise fell victim to a vast machine of organised violence. I don't think that street violence is the best way to fight fascists, but it's becoming increasingly clear that there are fascists who need to be fought. I believe non-violence can work, but I'm certain that passivity won't. On an unrelated note, I thought this was interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/22/christianity-norm-underground-mystery
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Mar 22, 2018 22:40
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CountFosco posted:The peasants weren't the ones in control of the French revolution. It was largely led by ideologues in Paris which spread outward, and was widely resisted by the actual bona-fide peasants. See the vendee uprising. It later became more of a mass movement, as the state gradually transformed into a militaristic state, as mass conscription bound the various French peoples together within the sphere of the national army. As the revolutionaries failed to provide the economic prosperity that they promised, the difference was made up for with looting from neighboring countries as they went outside of France in defense of the revolution. Try telling a French peasant in 1790 or whatever that the Revolutionaries represent him when those same Revolutionaries are replacing the church with the "Cult of the Supreme Being" or the "Cult of Reason." It's a cult of something, I'll tell you what, and it ain't reason. I don't really agree with this version of French history. There were massive rural uprisings, particularly in the early stages of the revolution. Also the urban working classes, who definitely were involved with every step of the revolution up until Napoleon took power, didn't spring from the Paris cobblestones. They were peasants, and the children of peasants, and they retained their links with the rural poor.
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Mar 22, 2018 22:48
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To be fair, buddhist fascists are something else entirely. They argue that what was clearly an insanely brutal and murderous occupation of China and Korea were compassionate actions, and that the emperor, by dint of sanctioning their bloody imperialism, was a "wheel-turning king" who awakened all of humanity by his actions  If anyone's interested, I highly recommend "Zen at War" by Brian Daizen, it's an amazing work one how Japanese buddhism was perverted to support the actions of the state.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:04
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I don't know what that signifies, though. In every religion, you're going to find people who use their religion to support their ideology, whether it's Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Asatru, etc.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:32
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