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hegel you and i have far more in common with our ideologies (since i believe we both are coming from a place of compassion for the poor, just disagreement on what the best way to provide for them is) than either of us have in common with republicans so i don't take any of our disagreements personally. although sometimes i wonder if i'm not accurately describing my ideas (typing on a phone tends to make me avoid the thoughtfulness i try to put into my writing, instead trying to find the quickest way to say what i'm thinking without worrying about the actual words i'm using) or if you're reading my statements different to how i write them anyway we're cool
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Mar 24, 2018 21:31
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Senju Kannon posted:hegel you and i have far more in common with our ideologies (since i believe we both are coming from a place of compassion for the poor, just disagreement on what the best way to provide for them is) than either of us have in common with republicans so i don't take any of our disagreements personally. although sometimes i wonder if i'm not accurately describing my ideas (typing on a phone tends to make me avoid the thoughtfulness i try to put into my writing, instead trying to find the quickest way to say what i'm thinking without worrying about the actual words i'm using) or if you're reading my statements different to how i write them to be honest i am much cooler with you now that i know you don't actually want to hurt people, you are just blowing off steam. i am glad you clarified your position please do not die
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Mar 24, 2018 21:37
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What if you do want to hurt people but only if they consent? Does the Church have an official stance on BDSM?
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Mar 24, 2018 23:14
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please do not use the words "bdsm" and "christianity" in the same sentence it makes me remember that bdsm theology is a thing and if you google "bdsm christology" you will get multiple peer reveiwed articles by theologians who may or may not have teaching jobs and yet, if you google "transgender christology" you get no peer reviewed articles. i probably could have changed that if i did a master's thesis, but 仕方ないよ EDIT: having googled it for the first time in over a year i find out that there is a top result on google for an academia.edu paper that seems like a master's thesis or something of the kind, but no indication it was ever reviewed by peers per se so i'm calling this a moral victory. that's right, matthew praful you're on blast Senju Kannon fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 24, 2018 |
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Mar 24, 2018 23:27
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HEY GUNS posted:
Look, it's one thing to try to have an objective perspective on history, it's another thing entirely to say that there's no telos in this world. If there's no telos, than all eschatology ever is just so much bloviating. And the sentiment also casts the whole concept of theosis into doubt. And thanking the water isn't a bad idea, so long as it's not idolatrous but rather done in a sense of reverence for the creator which made water so lovely and glittery.
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Mar 25, 2018 04:43
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CountFosco posted:Look, it's one thing to try to have an objective perspective on history, it's another thing entirely to say that there's no telos in this world. If there's no telos, than all eschatology ever is just so much bloviating. And the sentiment also casts the whole concept of theosis into doubt. And thanking the water isn't a bad idea, so long as it's not idolatrous but rather done in a sense of reverence for the creator which made water so lovely and glittery. edit: BEsides, theosis is an individual goal, not a goal of history, HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 04:53
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you should read ignacio ellacuria, he was a historian as well as a philosopher and theologian and his theology was heavily influenced by his theory of history which he called realidad. i'd try to give a better summary but it's been a while since i've read ellacuria and i'd be worried about misremembering pertinent details. https://books.google.com/books?id=-...history&f=false this should (hopefully) link to what i THINK is the only english translation of his work? anyway the first chapter is what i'm referring to. i just think you might be interested since you're a historian and a christian. i'll probably try to reread this chapter since i remember liking it when i read it for class about... jesus probably five years ago. i have not done well post grad school
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Mar 25, 2018 05:09
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I was just thinking about something, man I put my pastor at the time through the ringer when I went through that transhumanism phase 10-15 years ago. I was always asking him bullshit questions like whether sentient but artificially created beings have original sin and nonsense like that like that almost certainly wasn't covered in any class he ever took. And because religious leaders are supposed to be nice he had to give me a thoughtful answer instead of just saying 'Who cares nerd?' which is probably the correct answer.
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Mar 25, 2018 06:00
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TOOT BOOT posted:I was just thinking about something, man I put my pastor at the time through the ringer when I went through that transhumanism phase 10-15 years ago. I was always asking him bullshit questions like whether sentient but artificially created beings have original sin and nonsense like that like that almost certainly wasn't covered in any class he ever took. And because religious leaders are supposed to be nice he had to give me a thoughtful answer instead of just saying 'Who cares nerd?' which is probably the correct answer. you're every kid in Sunday School and I am contractually obligated to not give them swirlies
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Mar 25, 2018 06:13
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TOOT BOOT posted:And because religious leaders are supposed to be nice he had to give me a thoughtful answer instead of just saying 'Who cares nerd?' Sometimes I would ask similarly nerdy questions to my theology professors and one in particular, especially because he was not a religious leader, did occasionally say just that.
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Mar 25, 2018 06:13
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A really fun non-hypothetical to ask about is human chimerism: Sometimes, in a sort of reverse of the process which leads to identical twins, the embryos of fraternal twins fuse and a single child is born containing dna and cell lines from two independent conception events in various regions of their body. How many souls are involved in this process and what happens to the extra or are both still walking around, or what?
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Mar 25, 2018 07:32
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'If you're born intersexed, who should you date' is another kinda hard to answer question. I used to think I was the smartest man alive if I could come up with a question that a priest had a hard time answering, now I realize I was just being a dick to someone trying to do their job.
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Mar 25, 2018 09:52
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TOOT BOOT posted:'If you're born intersexed, who should you date' is another kinda hard to answer question. I used to think I was the smartest man alive if I could come up with a question that a priest had a hard time answering, now I realize I was just being a dick to someone trying to do their job. that’s a question highly relevant to a fairly sizable portion of the population tho. the fact that intersex people are largely ignored by mainstream theology is a huge problem i can only think of one theologian who really focuses on intersex issues specifically and that’s susannah cornwall. i’ve actually had the opportunity to listen to her lecture, twice actually, and while i haven’t read sex and uncertainty in the body of christ i know that priests are often unable to give spiritual counseling to either parents of intersex children or intersex adults. while cornwall was trying to do research on the issue by interviewing priests, they’d often ask her for advice on how to counsel people. the biggest issue isn’t “who should they have sex with” but coercive surgery performed on infants, sometimes even done without parental permission or knowledge. the fact is churches are largely ignorant of these issues, which lead to one intersex priest in south africa who decided she was meant to be a woman and not the man she was surgically assigned as to be told by a former colleague that her baptism was invalid because only humans can be baptized. an extreme example, and one cornwall said was not the norm, but still an example of why official teachings and guidelines sensitive to the needs of intersex people are needed.
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Mar 25, 2018 16:00
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this is a bit of a derail but since i've already talked about potentially having a brain tumor i can only get so wet. in case anyone is concerned, doing some research indicates that the incidence rate is 1/1000 patients with my diagnosis, not the 1/100 the doctor told me. i feel it's equally possible that my research is wrong or my doctor did not recall the specific incidence rate when trying to inform me she was looking for a tumor but in a way that wouldn't cause me to freak out about having a tumor (her only mistake was that my favorite show for years was scrubs and so i know a bit of medical stuff, not a lot but enough to know a growth is a euphemism for tumor). while obviously this changes nothing about whether or not i have a tumor, i find a .1% chance to be more reassuring than a 1% chance and thought people in the thread might like to know that i tried to schedule the mri but turns out you can't schedule an appointment for non-emergency stuff on a sunday morning. who knew.
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Mar 25, 2018 16:54
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HEY GUNS posted:In this world, not the next. But this world and the next are connected in a very important way. One could say that the telos of this world is the next, no? And while theosis is an individual goal, that process of drawing into Christ has very distinct outward affects. See: the influence of Saints on their communities.
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Mar 25, 2018 17:18
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CountFosco posted:But this world and the next are connected in a very important way. One could say that the telos of this world is the next, no? And while theosis is an individual goal, that process of drawing into Christ has very distinct outward affects. See: the influence of Saints on their communities. Hegel is correct, the world to come is not the telos of this world. If it were, that would imply that there is a continuity between the logic and the categories of this world and that of the next; Paul's epistles are pretty insistent that this is not the case. The world to come interrupts this world and abolishes it, it does not complete it. You're confusing a temporal end with a telos.
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Mar 25, 2018 17:30
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liberation theology disagrees with that. i could go into more detail but no one cares, not even me
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Mar 25, 2018 17:36
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Senju Kannon posted:liberation theology disagrees with that. Yeah me too. Hard to believe in the redemption of creation and its destruction at the same time. Unless "creation" only means "human" and that's pretty drat petty. Apocalyptic theology (not the crazy people on the street corner) would also say this world participates in the telos; it has in fact already been redeemed and is in the phase of telos-coming-into-being.
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Mar 25, 2018 17:55
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Hegel is correct, the world to come is not the telos of this world. If it were, that would imply that there is a continuity between the logic and the categories of this world and that of the next; Paul's epistles are pretty insistent that this is not the case. The world to come interrupts this world and abolishes it, it does not complete it. You're confusing a temporal end with a telos. reported for gnosticism
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Mar 25, 2018 17:58
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Senju Kannon posted:liberation theology disagrees with that. i could go into more detail but no one cares, not even me no i'm pretty interested if you have the time The Phlegmatist posted:reported for gnosticism *scoots furtively out of thread*
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Mar 25, 2018 18:56
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Mar 25, 2018 19:34
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Hegel is correct, the world to come is not the telos of this world. If it were, that would imply that there is a continuity between the logic and the categories of this world and that of the next; Paul's epistles are pretty insistent that this is not the case. The world to come interrupts this world and abolishes it, it does not complete it. You're confusing a temporal end with a telos. What was seen at the moment of the transfiguration? It was a glimpse of the new man of God, the new Adam, the man of the world to come. If the distance between this world and the world to come were as lacking in continuity as you seem to indicate, how would the transfiguration be possible?
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Mar 25, 2018 19:50
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CountFosco posted:But this world and the next are connected in a very important way. One could say that the telos of this world is the next, no? And while theosis is an individual goal, that process of drawing into Christ has very distinct outward affects. See: the influence of Saints on their communities. i am weirded the hell out by the implication that theosis is a social goal. Because then it can be a cultural goal, which is, again, odd. And has some uncomfortable implications (which culture?). The Byzantine Empire was not there to make its citizens become one with God.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:53
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The Phlegmatist posted:reported for gnosticism I'd like to think that you can defend divine transcendence against historical schemata without falling into gnosticism, but all the same, point taken.
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Mar 25, 2018 21:21
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Numerical Anxiety posted:I'd like to think that you can defend divine transcendence against historical schemata without falling into gnosticism, but all the same, point taken. I'd rather see the mod reaction.
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Mar 25, 2018 21:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:no i'm pretty interested if you have the time this is going to be a bit barebones since i'm feeling a little under the weather at the moment, but essentially one of the main characteristics of liberation theology that exists from latin american liberation theologians to james hal cone and black liberation theologians (i mention these two specifically because they're different origin points for liberation theology which occurred at around the same time, from different church traditions, from different nations) which is that the crucifixion and resurrection are god irrupting into human history in a single historical point. the crucifixion is god's radial identification with the oppressed throughout history, and the resurrection is god's promise for liberation. liberation theology takes seriously marx's critique of religion as opiate of the masses, that religion often provides a sedative to the plight of workers by promising paradise after death so that they ignore the social reality around them. instead, they point to the cross and resurrection as god acting within history, and point to jesus' kingdom of god as a historical promise. liberation theologians often write about how the eschaton is not an otherworldly reality, but god's promise for this reality. it's why liberation theologians advocate for working for the poor and oppressed; by taking part in working for the poor, they are helping bring about the eschaton. aloysius pieris called base communities where people live in common with each other and share what they have with each other as another historical example of god working within history to show what will be.
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Mar 25, 2018 22:20
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I don't see it. It seems to me that, if there is a divine plan, it's fundamentally unknowable, and we have to act as if we're free. Because if there is a god and he has a divine plan, then we're just puppets, and what's the point of living? I can deal with the idea of a god who is indifferent or absent from the world, but a god who's active in the world is a terrifying prospect.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:09
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and if the poor are the vehicle of the eschaton, then what are we to make of the god who loves everyone equally?
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Mar 25, 2018 23:39
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I'm late to the conversation, but it's a pleasure to see spirited and often respectful debate on the revolution that's been going on since the beginning of everything. I just finished listening to the audio book of Lawrence Freedman's Strategy: A History. Of course it covered the big names of political, military, and business strategy like Pericles, Clausewitz, and Rockefeller. The most interesting and relevant section for me was on the history of the strategies of revolutionary movements, of groups without power who seek to gain power. It covers violent and pacifist theorists from communism, civil rights, and nationalist movements. As primarily a history book, Strategy: A History focuses less on analysis or application. Nevertheless, it identifies several enduring strategic considerations that apply broadly, including in the field of affecting grand change. So however open or closed you are to violence, it's been self-evident that sides with allies survive, and sides without allies decline. Build your bridges; peace time is infrastructure week. Strategy: A History also has a half-serious section on the strategies of God and the Adversary in the Hebrew Scriptures and in Paradise Lost. It's a bad bet to side against all-power, but we all like an underdog story, too. edit: I also celebrated my Catholic grandpa-in-law's 90th birthday yesterday. He was born in Weisbaden, Germany. Like Pope Benedict, my opa was conscripted into the youth anti-air corps and deserted. Post-war, he emigrated to the USA, became an English professor, and married an Irish-American Presbyterian. That caused a brief scandal in her family, but his good nature won them over, and times have changed since then. It was a joyous celebration. Opa was honored and happy. Caufman fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 26, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 23:53
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HEY GUNS posted:and if the poor are the vehicle of the eschaton, then what are we to make of the god who loves everyone equally? love doesn’t manifest itself the same way for every person you love. you can love your partner the same as your children but you don’t love them in the same way. god’s love for the poor is manifested by god’s promise of liberation from oppression, and god’s love of those who perpetuate oppression is manifested in god’s promise to liberate them from oppressing. i think it was james hal cone who said that racism makes racists into monsters, and that black liberation also liberates racists from themselves, though you have to pull them out kicking and screaming. the statistics show that the incredibly wealthy are paranoid and obsessed with accumulation, as well as alienated from the lives of the poor. psychologically they are cut off, unable to feel compassion for those with less. wouldn’t a god who loves all equally want them free from themselves? besides, a god who sees the poor and hears their cries of pain, who sees the enslaved crying out for liberation, and who does not intercede on their behalf out of love for the rich and slaver is a god who hates the poor and the slave, and is not the god revealed in scripture or in the person jesus
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Mar 25, 2018 23:59
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HEY GUNS posted:i am weirded the hell out by the implication that theosis is a social goal. Because then it can be a cultural goal, which is, again, odd. And has some uncomfortable implications (which culture?). The Byzantine Empire was not there to make its citizens become one with God. Uh, you quoted me as saying that theosis is an individual goal. To say that an individual's theosis has effects on the person outside of the pilgrim, doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that theosis is a social goal. When St. Mary was in the desert, her asceticism had a sanctifying effect on her, but I cannot but believe that it had a mystically significant effect on the world around her as well, bringing the world itself a little more in harmony with the divine plan. We can see this principle of piety effecting the world around us in ways which seem to defy everyday causality in the lives of the saints, for example when the otters warm St Cuthbert's feet as he prayed in the waters (https://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/st-cuthbert-and-the-otters/). What I'm trying to get at here is what St Seraphim of Sarov said: “Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls around you will be saved.” In an aside, today has been a very difficult day for me, as one of our hens is now at the point of receiving palliative care from us. We first saw that something might be up with her a couple of weeks ago, when she was acting a little unusually, hanging out on the stoop of the coop, neither going in or out. She was trying to go broody, and eventually we had to bring her inside to sequester her from the other chickens to make sure she was getting enough food and water. Often, when a hen will go broody, they neglect their own food and water needs. Sadly, I think we attended her too late, as the day after we brought her back to the coop because she was looking better, we discovered her still, aside from her breathing. It's difficult to say exactly what happened medically, but I hope that I did all that I could. I've been praying that she passes peacefully now, and I invite you all to share in that prayer, if you are moved to. I've been feeling the feels all day, and sharing it with this community helps. It really pains me to think that she had this desire to raise some of her own chicks, and never was able to fulfill that goal, but I try to trust that there was something worthwhile in her attempt regardless. Thankfully, she doesn't seem to be in much pain at the moment. I can't help but thinking that this is a manifestation of self-sacrifice, here in my life, and for what it is worth, I hope for her spirit.
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Mar 26, 2018 00:52
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Senju Kannon posted:besides, a god who sees the poor and hears their cries of pain, who sees the enslaved crying out for liberation, and who does not intercede on their behalf out of love for the rich and slaver is a god who hates the poor and the slave, and is not the god revealed in scripture or in the person jesus Anyway if yall want to see a cult develop in real time, check out belief in QAnon https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3852601 HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Mar 26, 2018 |
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Mar 26, 2018 01:13
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The Phlegmatist posted:reported for gnosticism Let he who never espoused a heresy in this thread cast the first stone.
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Mar 26, 2018 01:54
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Git 'em, Ceciltron.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:32
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HEY GUNS posted:At no time is this said to be a new political order which the poor will lead, or that the end of the world will be the establishment of such an order my friend have u tried the beatitudes??? you're getting hung up about a realizing eschatology (we need to lift up the poor to bring about the eschaton) versus a realized eschatology (Christ is already King, but we can reflect in our own world the nature of Heaven by lifting up the poor) I think
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Mar 26, 2018 02:33
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The Phlegmatist posted:my friend have u tried the beatitudes??? There are plenty of good things to do that aren't the point and end goal of the universe. The beatitudes say that you will be blessed if you do these things. The point of the world isn't visiting the sick, either.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:39
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CountFosco posted:In an aside, today has been a very difficult day for me, as one of our hens is now at the point of receiving palliative care from us. We first saw that something might be up with her a couple of weeks ago, when she was acting a little unusually, hanging out on the stoop of the coop, neither going in or out. She was trying to go broody, and eventually we had to bring her inside to sequester her from the other chickens to make sure she was getting enough food and water. Often, when a hen will go broody, they neglect their own food and water needs. Sadly, I think we attended her too late, as the day after we brought her back to the coop because she was looking better, we discovered her still, aside from her breathing. It's difficult to say exactly what happened medically, but I hope that I did all that I could. I've been praying that she passes peacefully now, and I invite you all to share in that prayer, if you are moved to. I've been feeling the feels all day, and sharing it with this community helps. It really pains me to think that she had this desire to raise some of her own chicks, and never was able to fulfill that goal, but I try to trust that there was something worthwhile in her attempt regardless. Thankfully, she doesn't seem to be in much pain at the moment. I can't help but thinking that this is a manifestation of self-sacrifice, here in my life, and for what it is worth, I hope for her spirit. This is outside my area of experience, though my sister has a small backyard coop with a few hens. Hopefully she passes peacefully.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:48
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TOOT BOOT posted:This is outside my area of experience, though my sister has a small backyard coop with a few hens. Hopefully she passes peacefully.
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Mar 26, 2018 03:05
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CountFosco posted:What was seen at the moment of the transfiguration? It was a glimpse of the new man of God, the new Adam, the man of the world to come. If the distance between this world and the world to come were as lacking in continuity as you seem to indicate, how would the transfiguration be possible? To be honest, I don't entirely understand what you are getting at. The order of this world is sin and death for everyone, without end. The incarnation interrupted that order and introduced categories that transgress the order of this world. According to the latter, the wisdom of the Greeks is wise, but the wisdom of God overturns that. We still live in this world, however, although there is a glimpse of that to come, which will do away with this world. The transfiguration would just be one of those moments of interruption.
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Mar 26, 2018 03:10
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i’m not really gonna argue for or against liberation theology because a i am not feeling great and b i am not a christian anymore so i don’t have a dog in that fight
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Mar 26, 2018 03:13
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