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lollontee posted:Well they're going to make you give a poo poo. So morality play, national sovereignty or not giving a poo poo, eventually you're going to have to face up to the fact that you have neighbours with national interest who intend to pursue them and they will make you take note, politely or not. If this basic principle of human interaction is intolerable to you, close your borders and shut your windows and go to a place where you don't have to submit yourself to any of these considerations: your dreams. Yes, the immovable Russian national interest of being a bully. gently caress off, nobody is forcing Russia to be hostile and expansionist, not any more than anybody forced Britain to colonize India or Americans to take all the native land. They are the only ones pushing for a war, and theirs is the only responsibility for whatever happens.
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Mar 28, 2018 09:15
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Also "this basic principle of human interactions" in your daily life is to let everybody beat you up, rape you, rob you, take your home while you make up excuses for them?
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Mar 28, 2018 09:16
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steinrokkan posted:Also "this basic principle of human interactions" in your daily life is to let everybody beat you up, rape you, rob you, take your home while you make up excuses for them? sure
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Mar 28, 2018 09:21
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lollontee posted:Yes. If two people throw hard balls at each other, what you have is indeed a war. 1. Russia plays hardball at a time the EU isn't. 2. Playing hardball is irresponsible warmongering. 3. War should be avoided, thus you advocate appeasement. So now let's put this in the same kinds of realpolitik terms you tend to hear coming from the US: It appears Russia is testing our resolve. By giving into their demands we would damage the trust of our allies, undermine our national interests and show Russia they can jerk us around and achieve their policy goals with brinkmanship. This will clearly incentivise them to go even further next time. Or is this hard-nosed great power politics game just a one way street for some reason?
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Mar 28, 2018 09:22
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lollontee posted:sure I thought so, don't try to sell others on your self-abusive Russophilia, though.
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Mar 28, 2018 09:23
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Orange Devil posted:1. Russia plays hardball at a time the EU isn't. yes, this street we're on does indeed have one and only one direction. steinrokkan posted:I thought so, don't try to sell others on your self-abusive Russophilia, though. nah, i will
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Mar 28, 2018 09:25
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lollontee posted:nah, i will another putin agent unmasked, our work here is done
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Mar 28, 2018 09:35
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another day at home for the retard masturbator
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Mar 28, 2018 09:36
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Oh dear, things really got serious now. https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/978898343924559873
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Mar 28, 2018 10:05
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Tax havens turning on Russia may well be the one thing to matter.
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Mar 28, 2018 10:39
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Oh dear, things really got serious now. 
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Mar 28, 2018 10:52
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The Luxembourg ambassador speaks in a squeaky cartoon voice
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Mar 28, 2018 10:54
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lollontee posted:Right. You know that big powerful neighbour you have? They don't like American tanks. Because they are american. So they're tank racists? lollontee posted:Yes. If two people throw hard balls at each other, what you have is indeed a war. But if there's one people throwing hard balls at another who passively endures, then it's better than a war?
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Mar 28, 2018 10:57
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Looking forward to the day when the Russians are begging for American tanks on the Amur to defend Outer Manchuria against Chinese revanchists.
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Mar 28, 2018 11:23
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Oh dear, things really got serious now. Sergei Lavrov briefly confused before going "oh right, that IS a country"
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Mar 28, 2018 11:30
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Tesseraction posted:Sergei Lavrov briefly confused before going "oh right, that IS a country" Might matter when it's where a ton of their money is.
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Mar 28, 2018 11:36
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Ardennes posted:Depends on what you mean by Europe, Western Europe would still take decades while Russia falls in more or less with the mid-lower end of Eastern Europe. Also, changes are occuring outside of just Moscow and to be honest, a lot of the larger cities have really come around. Siberia is usually lagging. Corruption perception did increase in Russia under Putin though, especially after he took a hard authoritarian turn in the late 00's.  Russia is now ranked 135th worst country out of 175 in the world on public corruption perception. I also wouldn't really equate their development with eastern Europe. Russia is a petro state, while the EE economies are real, diversified economies producing goods and services in a competitive world economy. The whole petro state business is not a long term solution and outside of arms manufacturing Russia hasn't build up any competitive economic sectors. The oil crash of 2014 was a good first taste of how Russian development will look like without all the hard currency that oil/gas exports bring. And I still think there was a decent chance for close EU - Russia integration, if Russia only had been willing. At least from the German side, I can say that most people here would have welcomed it(that was before the war in Georgia of course, things are very different now)From our perspective it was Russian's failing, not ours. Guess we really underestimated how hosed the Russian national psyche is.
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Mar 28, 2018 11:40
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Inescapable Duck posted:Might matter when it's where a ton of their money is. Maybe, but according to the watchdogs it's Bank of Cyprus and Deutsche Bank who are the big launderers for Russian crimerubles.
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Mar 28, 2018 11:41
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lollontee posted:Well they're going to make you give a poo poo. So morality play, national sovereignty or not giving a poo poo, eventually you're going to have to face up to the fact that you have neighbours with national interest who intend to pursue them and they will make you take note, politely or not. If this basic principle of human interaction is intolerable to you, close your borders and shut your windows and go to a place where you don't have to submit yourself to any of these considerations: your dreams. This goes both ways. I think its really silly to demand everyone just bend over backwards to respect Russia's "national interests" while they just go around invading their neighbors whenever they displease them. I intensely dislike the bargain-bin Realist international relations argument being made here. You want to dismiss Estonian (or whoever) concerns about Russia because of the harsh nature of reality or whatever, that's fine. But by the same token, if Russia feels threatened by tanks on their border they're just going to have to deal with it, because they aren't going away any time soon, especially not when Russia repeatedly demonstrates exactly what happens to its neighbors without Western backing. What is Russia going to do, go to war with NATO? In its current state? That sounds more like a dream to me.
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Mar 28, 2018 11:45
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https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/978950141662126080 sounds like kinda fun?
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Mar 28, 2018 12:32
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make it an experience, where the guide is accompanied by thugs who take all your cash and credit cards and you have to live with what the average greek has and it'd be pretty good fun, yeah
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Mar 28, 2018 12:41
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I imagine GuassianCopula visiting Greece would go as well as the last time a dumb as bricks ancap dweeb went to Greece and ended up getting his rear end kicked by anarchists.
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Mar 28, 2018 13:08
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That pricetag is exorbitant. Unless I misread it and you get 2500 to spend, but then it it doesnt really make sende that they are selling it and not awarding it or whatever.
Randarkman fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 13:15
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icantfindaname posted:Literal Nazi spinning in his grave is a good thing IMO mannerheim was a patriot and a good man  
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Mar 28, 2018 13:22
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Corruption perception did increase in Russia under Putin though, especially after he took a hard authoritarian turn in the late 00's. In reality, Russia just kept on being Russia, it was just corruption became more centralized in a hierarchical patronage system (but even then was already being formed in the early 2000s). quote:I also wouldn't really equate their development with eastern Europe. Russia is a petro state, while the EE economies are real, diversified economies producing goods and services in a competitive world economy. The whole petro state business is not a long term solution and outside of arms manufacturing Russia hasn't build up any competitive economic sectors. The oil crash of 2014 was a good first taste of how Russian development will look like without all the hard currency that oil/gas exports bring. If anything the counter-sanctions are being used as an attempt as import substitution investment and looking at Russia's balance of trade it is working. Really, the only realistic solution for Russians is probably protectionism. Furthermore, maybe the oil crash wasn't a bad thing, either. The Ruble was almost certainly overvalued and was pricing out exports while subsidizing imports to too heavy of a degree. Also, I got to say the doom and gloom I heard about the global oil market has been overblown to say the least. I was at talk at Georgetown and the speaker pretty much-promised oil would stay at $20-30 dollars a barrel for the next decade...I am sure he forgot he said that. In the very long-term oil will see less demand, but at the same time, cheaper oil is going to undercut the development of electric cars especially as car uses increases in the developing world especially Africa. Oh yeah, and Eastern European economies are more diversified in their trade but also very dependent on being a source of cheap labor for Western Europe and are also open to bubble economies and competitive pressure (look at the mid-2000s). quote:And I still think there was a decent chance for close EU - Russia integration, if Russia only had been willing. At least from the German side, I can say that most people here would have welcomed it(that was before the war in Georgia of course, things are very different now)From our perspective it was Russian's failing, not ours. Guess we really underestimated how hosed the Russian national psyche is. I think when you get to the point of saying entire groups of tens millions of people are just "hosed," you have completely lost the plot and really there is nothing more to say.
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Mar 28, 2018 13:43
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Ardennes posted:I think when you get to the point of saying entire groups of tens millions of people are just "hosed," you have completely lost the plot and really there is nothing more to say. How can you even say that with a straight face after Trump and Brexit. Societies can and have collectively grown stupid, pessimistic, stubborn or even crazy at times given the right circumstances. Talking to Russians or former Sovjet states about politics is something I always find fascinating because they plain just do not perceive societal institutions and politics in the way we do.
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Mar 28, 2018 13:58
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tbh i get the impression that we're locked in to separate modes of communication here, with ardennes and co saying so long as russia is more less justifiably paranoid they're going to keep acting out and the others saying that this is not an ok way to behave all comes down to how justified one finds Russian anxiety i guess
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Mar 28, 2018 14:05
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If Russia wanted to avoid anxiety they really should just have joined NATO. It wouldn't even necessarily have been a contradiction to the empire-building ambitions as we can see today with Turkey ( ).
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Mar 28, 2018 14:13
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh i get the impression that we're locked in to separate modes of communication here, with ardennes and co saying so long as russia is more less justifiably paranoid they're going to keep acting out and the others saying that this is not an ok way to behave "Russian" anxiety is the anxiety of a ruling clique that it may lose its grip on power and access to easilly extorted targets. People who glorify it and hail it as national interest, national psyche, etc., are merely taking Putin's narrative hook, line and sinker.
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Mar 28, 2018 14:17
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MiddleOne posted:If Russia wanted to avoid anxiety they really should just have joined NATO. It wouldn't even necessarily have been a contradiction to the empire-building ambitions as we can see today with Turkey ( The Soviet Union actually did suggest that they should join NATO in the early 50s. It was rejected because NATO members thought they were mostly out to weaken and disrupt the alliance and on the whole it wasn't really taken seriously.
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Mar 28, 2018 14:18
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MiddleOne posted:How can you even say that with a straight face after Trump and Brexit. Societies can and have collectively grown stupid, pessimistic, stubborn or even crazy at times given the right circumstances. Talking to Russians or former Sovjet states about politics is something I always find fascinating because they plain just do not perceive societal institutions and politics in the way we do. The issue is it usually explainable with enough knowledge of history and economics, you can say a society is facing pressures and is going into a more authoritarian direction...but they are in the end you know, people. If anything a competent understanding of history will show you that people placed in similar circumstances will often act in the same way including on a societal level. Russians perceive politics in a different manner because well their history has been quite different, and their perspective comes from that. V. Illych L. posted:tbh i get the impression that we're locked in to separate modes of communication here, with ardennes and co saying so long as russia is more less justifiably paranoid they're going to keep acting out and the others saying that this is not an ok way to behave My perception of Russia is obviously influenced by both living here, for me, Russians are not an "unknowable other." This wasn't always the case, even perhaps 4-5 years ago. However, experience does change on outlook and it did mine as well. To me Russians aren't some "ant-like robots" or "loons who only live to draw blood." Granted, to be honest, I am also a Soviet historian and the sources I work on often really don't match typical popular narratives of Soviet history, especially in the US. steinrokkan posted:"Russian" anxiety is the anxiety of a ruling clique that it may lose its grip on power and access to easilly extorted targets. People who glorify it and hail it as national interest, national psyche, etc., are merely taking Putin's narrative hook, line and sinker. That just isn't true. MiddleOne posted:If Russia wanted to avoid anxiety they really should just have joined NATO. It wouldn't even necessarily have been a contradiction to the empire-building ambitions as we can see today with Turkey ( Yeah, Russia is never going to ever going to be given a serious chance of joining NATO or the EU. It really isn't something that is even close to the realm of possibility. If anything part of it simply geopolitical momentum since those structures were designed to counter the Soviets, and honestly make not work or make sense if out an eastern threat of their borders to play against. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 14:23
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:And I still think there was a decent chance for close EU - Russia integration, if Russia only had been willing. At least from the German side, I can say that most people here would have welcomed it(that was before the war in Georgia of course, things are very different now)From our perspective it was Russian's failing, not ours. Guess we really underestimated how hosed the Russian national psyche is.
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Mar 28, 2018 14:27
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Randarkman posted:The Soviet Union actually did suggest that they should join NATO in the early 50s. It was rejected because NATO members thought they were mostly out to weaken and disrupt the alliance and on the whole it wasn't really taken seriously. Have you read Molotov's memorandum to the Presidium? He wrote openly that it was a propaganda effort to complement their proposal to offer the US a seat in the Soviet initiated European defense institutions, which in itself was designed to lower the apparent credibility of NATO as a defense pact. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 14:27
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Ardennes posted:That just isn't true. In that case I guess their national psyche really is hosed!
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Mar 28, 2018 14:29
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steinrokkan posted:In that case I guess their national psyche really is hosed! "No, it is the children who are wrong." Yeah, the Russians as a whole to have something to lose from Ukraine specifically being part of NATO + losing Sevastopol. Moreover, the responses of Russia would be traditionally limited by the relatively small size of their economy versus the West (which was basically always the case.) At a certain point you can say the population of any empire is "hosed" because of the actions of that empire, but also I think it pretty stupid to be honest (and that includes the United States/UK etc etc). Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 14:32
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Ardennes posted:"No, it is the children who are wrong." Yeah, if you buy into the false state narrative and "losing Sevastopol" ever were an option, it would truly seem to be a disaster! Also don't forget to pivot to posting about Banderists murdering peaceful Russians in Odessa. IMHO the Americans should take over Cuba because it is a strategic hub in an American sphere of influence, and truly the American people are suffering from not having a control of Cuban ports. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 14:37
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Empires consider their citizens expendable, news at 11.
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Mar 28, 2018 14:40
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i mean the russians i've dealt with seem to feel that the west legitimately is out to wipe our their more-or-less functioning state and bring back the nineties. how much credence one lends this seems to be to depend a lot on one's analysis of the nineties situation, but it's not a totally out there mentality not that this justifies grotesque breaches of international law, of course
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Mar 28, 2018 14:46
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steinrokkan posted:Yeah, if you buy into the false state narrative and "losing Sevastopol" ever were an option, it would truly seem to be a disaster! Losing Sevastopol (the naval base btw not the city) isn't some conspiracy, before 2010, the previous Ukrainian government under Yushchenko had axed the base. It is a logical assumption the post-Madian government would as well. Likewise, it is logical they would push for NATO since it was an open issue in Ukrainian politics before Euromaidan (Yushchenko had tried in vain to get a MAP). steinrokkan posted:
The US tried and failed. 
Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 14:46
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Ardennes posted:The US tried and failed. A sad day for the freedom of poor, oppressed imperialists everywhere.
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Mar 28, 2018 14:48
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