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Senor Dog posted:IMHO Rights of Man was the best expansion/patch in EU4. You should give that patch (1.19 I think) a shot. can confirm that i froze eu4 at 1.19 and it's very good once i hear they've fixed ming maybe i'll jump to the current version
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Mar 28, 2018 19:30
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Jazerus posted:can confirm that i froze eu4 at 1.19 and it's very good Other than the times that they get Transoxiana or Uzbeks as a tributary in like 1500 they're not that bad now, though they did successfully manage to make me never play in India (previously one of my favourite parts of the map) since that patch.
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Mar 28, 2018 20:00
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Doesn't quite fit CK2. That came out before they went on the manic mana mission. Uh the last two expansions introduced new kinds of mana that you can spend on powers
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Mar 28, 2018 20:29
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RabidWeasel posted:Other than the times that they get Transoxiana or Uzbeks as a tributary in like 1500 they're not that bad now, though they did successfully manage to make me never play in India (previously one of my favourite parts of the map) since that patch. i almost always play nations that end up in india or southeast asia, whether starting there or naturally expanding there like oman or ethiopia so i guess i'll stick with 1.19
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Mar 28, 2018 20:34
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Jazerus posted:i almost always play nations that end up in india or southeast asia, whether starting there or naturally expanding there like oman or ethiopia Makes sense, shame that they had to completely gently caress over like 20% of the map for a flavour mechanic nobody actually likes but there you go.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:41
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RabidWeasel posted:Makes sense, shame that they had to completely gently caress over like 20% of the map for a flavour mechanic nobody actually likes but there you go. I haven't played EU4 in over a year, what did they do? I read some poo poo about golden ages and stuff and none of it sounded like additions I was excited about.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:47
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China has a tributary system and will be called into any wars you declare against its tributaries. If you're inside the tributary zone, it works reasonably well. If you're on its borders, not so much.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:55
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Baronjutter posted:I haven't played EU4 in over a year, what did they do? I read some poo poo about golden ages and stuff and none of it sounded like additions I was excited about. China became the fun police of east asia.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:55
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The size of their tributary zone used to be ginormous which turned a lot of people off since they took (a lot) longer than most people thought reasonable to change it. Lots of people still think they’re too big, me included, but it’s nowhere as bad now.
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Mar 28, 2018 23:06
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Baronjutter posted:I haven't played EU4 in over a year, what did they do? I read some poo poo about golden ages and stuff and none of it sounded like additions I was excited about. China has a free defensive alliance with all of their tributaries. They tributary everything from the Malay Peninsula to the Indus and sometimes further. This includes big states with 400+ dev.
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Mar 28, 2018 23:11
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RabidWeasel posted:China has a free defensive alliance with all of their tributaries. They tributary everything from the Malay Peninsula to the Indus and sometimes further. This includes big states with 400+ dev. More like free guarantees. Tributaries don't get called in if China is attacked.
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Mar 28, 2018 23:16
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:More like free guarantees. Tributaries don't get called in if China is attacked. Yeah I kind of just forgot what the right word was, my bad  The way I usually think of it is "Ming has a magical force field which makes everything east of the Indus stop existing because it's too much loving effort to invade China every time"
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Mar 29, 2018 00:48
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Baronjutter posted:I haven't played EU4 in over a year, what did they do? I read some poo poo about golden ages and stuff and none of it sounded like additions I was excited about. It’s funny because the Ages system is like the only thing they’ve added since like Mare Nostrum that actually interested me to play the game. It’s a shame because I loved EU3 and there’s no going back to it since EU4 does everything better, but EU4 these days is just so bloated and disconnected. I really hope they’ve at least got an idea of what EU5 is going to look like, if it’s not planned any time soon.
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Mar 29, 2018 01:39
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It's also not really fun inside the tributary bubble either since you are effectively paying a tax for playing in east Asia. And also it's kind of broken that no one outside the bubble is really going to be a threat to you since you have big daddy Ming protecting you which isn't as interesting imo. It's especially frustrating since historically the EU4 time period was pretty much "Everything Is On Fire Oh God: The Ming Story," which just makes you glare at them and think "shouldn't you really be dying now?"
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Mar 29, 2018 02:10
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Soup du Jour posted:It’s funny because the Ages system is like the only thing they’ve added since like Mare Nostrum that actually interested me to play the game. It’s a shame because I loved EU3 and there’s no going back to it since EU4 does everything better, but EU4 these days is just so bloated and disconnected. I really hope they’ve at least got an idea of what EU5 is going to look like, if it’s not planned any time soon. Yeah, honestly, the ages system is really good. Yes, it's yet another mana system, but it's probably their best designed one.
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Mar 29, 2018 02:19
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AnoHito posted:It's also not really fun inside the tributary bubble either since you are effectively paying a tax for playing in east Asia. You're paying a tax to make sure the Ming doesn't swallow you whole, which was a perpetual threat before the tributary system was added and one there wasn't really a way to work around without cheesing things or relying on luck. A country as big as Ming needs some check to keep it from eating everything and the tributary system works pretty well for that. I agree it kills diplomacy for all the border states though, even if you're within Ming's sphere. It'd probably be better without any of the alliance stuff; just have it as a "protection money" thing. Ming having to actually deal with internal poo poo would be great, but then that goes for every large state in EU4.
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Mar 29, 2018 02:32
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Has there ever been a Paradox game including China in which China isn't incredibly broken in some way, either far too strong or far too weak?
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Mar 29, 2018 02:39
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Koramei posted:It'd probably be better without any of the alliance stuff; just have it as a "protection money" thing. I might be getting this confused with the Romans, but wasn't the balance of payments in the other direction, historically? The Chinese were basically paying people to tell them how great they were. A cash-for-mandate sort of deal, I guess.
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Mar 29, 2018 03:06
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Koramei posted:You're paying a tax to make sure the Ming doesn't swallow you whole, which was a perpetual threat before the tributary system was added and one there wasn't really a way to work around without cheesing things or relying on luck. A country as big as Ming needs some check to keep it from eating everything and the tributary system works pretty well for that. I agree it kills diplomacy for all the border states though, even if you're within Ming's sphere. It'd probably be better without any of the alliance stuff; just have it as a "protection money" thing. Before Mandate of Heaven, Ming was pretty trivial to deal with though. Aside from them being a paper tiger rather than some kind of invincible god empire, you could just placate/ally them instead of having to kneel before them and give them your lunch money. I mean, you don't exactly need the tributary system to avoid dying when playing near the Ottomans, for example.
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Mar 29, 2018 03:14
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them being a paper tiger was dumb as hell, and while you could ally them, it railroads you a bit and was also unreliable. not to mention doesn't make sense. Ming basically never did conventional alliances. I play Korea semi regularly and they are a poo poo load more fun since MoH. there's a lot to hate about it, especially around India and so on, but I pretty wholly disagree that the sinosphere itself isn't way better to play in, unless you particularly liked fighting the generic blob of tags that was exploded China. Autonomous Monster posted:I might be getting this confused with the Romans, but wasn't the balance of payments in the other direction, historically? The Chinese were basically paying people to tell them how great they were. A cash-for-mandate sort of deal, I guess. it varied with the period and who it was with. for nomadic societies (sometimes) China was in a sense paying them off, although usually it was more complex than that; for settled societies, when there was an imbalance that benefited one party, it was usually favoring China. it's complicated though. by Ming times the tributary missions were one of the only ways states could trade (officially) with China, so that could be quite lucrative, but at least in the case of korea (which is what i've done most of my reading on this about), normally for the state itself rather than the individual officials, the missions were a net negative for both parties. it was all about legitimacy and stability. really though it's a complicated enough thing that paradox can fudge it in any number of ways and it'll be at least sort of historical. what makes less sense than the tribute stuff is Ming fighting a hell war over tidore or manipur.
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Mar 29, 2018 04:15
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Maybe if they added a Mana bar for Ming where they have to spend mana to keep tributaries happy. Is there a betting pool on what the next expansion's mana bar will be?
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Mar 29, 2018 07:47
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maybe the tributary status could come without a guarantee and it's just "gently caress you, pay us"
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Mar 29, 2018 08:32
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Have Ming provide a free condottieri army to tributaries instead of a full on guarantee.
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Mar 29, 2018 10:07
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That's a good idea, except condottieri are from another DLC so they won't do that.
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Mar 29, 2018 11:08
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Prav posted:maybe the tributary status could come without a guarantee and it's just "gently caress you, pay us" I'm still baffled that they haven't just done this. It's an easy fix to one of the most widespread and persistent complaints about EU4 and it's still not even a bad deal for the tributaries. Paying a pittance so that the world's biggest power will ignore you is a pretty sweet deal.
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Mar 29, 2018 11:39
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Prav posted:maybe the tributary status could come without a guarantee and it's just "gently caress you, pay us" Gobblecoque posted:I'm still baffled that they haven't just done this. It's an easy fix to one of the most widespread and persistent complaints about EU4 and it's still not even a bad deal for the tributaries. Paying a pittance so that the world's biggest power will ignore you is a pretty sweet deal.
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Mar 29, 2018 12:04
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Koramei posted:it varied with the period and who it was with. for nomadic societies (sometimes) China was in a sense paying them off, although usually it was more complex than that; for settled societies, when there was an imbalance that benefited one party, it was usually favoring China. it's complicated though. by Ming times the tributary missions were one of the only ways states could trade (officially) with China, so that could be quite lucrative, but at least in the case of korea (which is what i've done most of my reading on this about), normally for the state itself rather than the individual officials, the missions were a net negative for both parties. it was all about legitimacy and stability.
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Mar 29, 2018 13:44
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I think it's worth noting that the tributary system adds an interesting additional gameplay goal for nations within the Chinese sphere of influence in that you have to enter the tributary system to expand, but once you expand enough it starts to become inconvenient and then you have the challenge of having to fight China to stop paying tribute. I think it's a good aspect of the whole tributary mechanic, giving the players a later game challenge that isn't just more territory they want to expand into.
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Mar 29, 2018 13:54
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Red Bones posted:I think it's worth noting that the tributary system adds an interesting additional gameplay goal for nations within the Chinese sphere of influence in that you have to enter the tributary system to expand, but once you expand enough it starts to become inconvenient and then you have the challenge of having to fight China to stop paying tribute. I think it's a good aspect of the whole tributary mechanic, giving the players a later game challenge that isn't just more territory they want to expand into.
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Mar 29, 2018 13:59
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Except China is insanely powerful and, most damning, way too stable. Historically, the Ming dynasty falls less 100 years after the game starts. In at least two dozen games that I have played past 1600 since Mandate of Heaven, I have not seen the Ming dynasty fall ever. Many posters in the EU4 thread report the exact same statistics. This is bad. Uh, 200 actually. Ming fell in the mid 1600s. Not saying they don’t need some checks to break them, but then having a major center in power in East Asia in most games is imo preferable to it exploding into nothing every game. Chinese historical unity does get way overstated, but by Ming times was a genuine thing. Historical Qing and poo poo that can actually form though would of course be way better. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:A big thing, especially in the EU4 time period, was Ming trading things like Silk to the nomads to their north in exchange for horses... China is large but its arable land was used to feed its large population; they had very little pastureland compared to, say, Mongolia. This is the whole premise of the Silk Road. Trade spats were the most common reason the Chinese and the steppe nomads would have a go at it. Like I said their relations with the nomads were a bit more complicated, although it was still (as with everything by the Ming period) ostensibly with China in the superior position in the relationship even though the trade wasn’t always conducted through formal tribute missions as they were with the settled neighbors. Also the silk road was a bit more complicated than just horses—and Ming traded for horses with many of its neighbors, including Korea (who acted as a middleman and imported them from the Jurchens). Koramei fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Mar 29, 2018 |
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Mar 29, 2018 14:27
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Koramei posted:Uh, 200 actually. Ming fell in the mid 1600s. Not saying they don’t need some checks to break them, but then having a major center in power in East Asia in most games is imo preferable to it exploding into nothing every game. Chinese historical unity does get way overstated, but by Ming times was a genuine thing. Historical Qing and poo poo that can actually form though would of course be way better. Eh. If it's exploding it's at least doing something, rather than sitting around being a big blob of loving nothing. That the thunderdome just sorts of ossifies and no new dynasty ever emerges is the bigger problem, I think. This may be the only time I wish for EU to be blobbier.
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Mar 29, 2018 16:48
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Pakled posted:Has there ever been a Paradox game including China in which China isn't incredibly broken in some way, either far too strong or far too weak? HOI4 gets it about right. Yeah, if you manage to win the Chinese Civil War before WW2 gets going you're going to be a powerhouse but that absolutely makes sense since PRC became a powerhouse pretty much immediately after winning the civil war in OTL. It's also hard as hell to advance quickly in China and conquer all the warlords so you typically see China vs. Japan as a stalemate like it was for us. axeil fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 29, 2018 |
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Mar 29, 2018 16:59
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Pakled posted:Has there ever been a Paradox game including China in which China isn't incredibly broken in some way, either far too strong or far too weak? China in HOI4 is rocky as gently caress to start but rewards victory handsomely. It's been a lot of fun to play.
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Mar 29, 2018 20:02
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Have the Jurchen tribes received any special missions with Rule Britannia? Maybe the AI will actually do some work towards forming Qing if they can get a bunch of bonuses propelling them towards doing so.
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Mar 29, 2018 20:06
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I did the thing, you guys. I applied to Paradox. I have to assume I'm a shoe-in since i've never made a Victoria 3 joke. Need to confirm with a PDX goon that this is the only requirement for employment.
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Mar 29, 2018 23:58
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Good luck! If only I could bring myself to up sticks and move to another country!
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Mar 30, 2018 00:14
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Autonomous Monster posted:Eh. If it's exploding it's at least doing something, rather than sitting around being a big blob of loving nothing. That the thunderdome just sorts of ossifies and no new dynasty ever emerges is the bigger problem, I think. Yeah, China needs mechanics to consolidate beyond just a strong CB and permanent claims. There's just too much development (while simultaneously being way, way, lower than it actually should be) for conventional mechanics to suffice for it. There needs to be something that just swings whole chunks of it under your control rapidly. Russia gets area claims, maybe the China regions should get area coring. I still think the thunderdome is just really boring though. It's just what the entire rest of the game is but with generic tags; having a strong China makes the region much more unique in the game world. What I'd really like to see in terms of variety, rather than China exploding (more than once in a blue moon anyway) is just different dynasties. Qing, Yuan, Tibet, Vietnam, Korea. Or hell, "oh poo poo, Sarig Yogir conquered China, how'd that happen?" You get that with every other region in the game, and while having Ming-eternal precludes that, nobody's ever going to give a poo poo about Wu or Yan getting swoll.
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Mar 30, 2018 00:21
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ExtraNoise posted:i've never made a Victoria 3 joke Going to wage a twitter campaign against your hiring
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Mar 30, 2018 00:34
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ExtraNoise posted:I did the thing, you guys. I applied to Paradox. Good luck, keep us updated  I've been considering doing likewise recently, except that there don't seem to be any programming roles available currently and I'm not sure my CV would survive the move to design.
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Mar 30, 2018 00:43
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Guys I accidentally got someone to buy Victoria 2. What is my punishment for this horrible crime?
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Mar 30, 2018 01:05
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