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Phil Moscowitz posted:On a whim, I started reading the Fifth Season by NK Jemisin. It's a good premise, and interesting, but...it's all in present tense. And one of the viewpoint characters is written in loving second person. There's a point and it's really good, IMO. I think present tense is fine, and having read a lot of short scifi, i see no reason to adhere to that guy's list religiously. Some of it is good to keep in mind, though.
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Mar 29, 2018 20:06
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present tense is fine and younger and younger audiences are trending towards it because of ya. strap in, motherfuckers
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Mar 29, 2018 20:28
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MockingQuantum posted:This reminds me, I really need to up my grammar game. I don't think I make any really egregious mistakes, but I occasionally agonize over verb tenses when I write in past tense. (drat "had", what the hell are you doing in like every fourth sentence for some reason) Tenses in English aren't too complicated once you break them down. Or maybe that's just how I feel having learned foreign languages with more complicated tenses. You've got three simple tenses: present, past, and future. (I surf, I surfed, I will surf.) Then you have two kinds of modifiers you can add to your tense: perfect (has surfed) and progressive (is surfing). Verbs in a perfect tense talk about completed actions. Present perfect says that the action is currently complete. "I have surfed before." Past perfect says that at a point in the past, the action was already complete. "I had surfed four competitions by the time I was eighteen." Future perfect says that by a future time, the action will be complete. "I will have surfed in every state once I find where Idaho hides its beaches." If you notice, perfect tenses are like an extra level of past tense. If you have surfed (present perfect), then it's also true that you surfed (simple past). This is handy if you're already writing in the past tense and need a way to refer to actions further in past. Verbs in a progressive tense talk about ongoing or continuous actions. Present progressive says that the action is currently ongoing. "I am surfing, can I call you back?" Past progressive says that in the past, the action was ongoing. "I was surfing, minding my own business, when the lion attacked." Future progressive says that at a future time, the action will be ongoing. "By the time you read this letter, I will be surfing somewhere you will never find me." Progressive tenses turn an action into a state that you can either have going on in the background, or interrupt with something more immediate. Verbs can also be in a perfect progressive tense, which is just the two put together. "I have been surfing," "I had been surfing," and "I will have been surfing." They refer to continuous actions begun at an earlier point, like "I finished the conference call; no one knew I had been surfing the whole time." or "I have been waiting here for two hours, where were you?" Perfect progressive emphasizes the ongoing nature of the action. Compare past "I surfed for four hours" with past perfect progressive "I had been surfing for four hours."
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Mar 29, 2018 20:54
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but can I write my novel in future tense!?
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Mar 29, 2018 21:16
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readingatwork posted:but can I write my novel in future tense!? yeah why not
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Mar 29, 2018 21:20
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readingatwork posted:but can I write my novel in future tense!? I read an entire biography that was basically written in conditional tense because the author wanted to make it clear when she was speculating versus providing actual fact
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Mar 29, 2018 21:33
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Sitting Here posted:There's a point and it's really good, IMO. Is the point something that is revealed later in the book, or is it just “you are part of the action, this is so immersive“ I’m going to stick with it, because like I said I like the premise and the writing otherwise. So far just seems gimmicky and distracting.
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Mar 29, 2018 22:09
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Is the point something that is revealed later in the book, or is it just “you are part of the action, this is so immersive“ There is an actual point and it's kinda neat.
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Mar 29, 2018 22:33
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passive voice is used to write most of my stories
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Mar 30, 2018 03:29
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use the passive voice to get a cool rhythm going. active voice is good. do both, sometimes, if you gotta make your words sound good in the noggin. words are music and they are a feeling. time matters. intensity matters. do what you gotta do.
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Mar 30, 2018 03:36
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i cant tell if that post was good or terrible. and you know what? i dont care. i like writing. i hope everyone writes cool things. i hope everyones happy with some words they put into a processor or on a page. lets all be beautiful garbage and say things for the sake of making the world a little more exciting to live in.
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Mar 30, 2018 03:41
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Hello pals, I just submitted a story to a publication for the first time and I am jazzed, and even if they never respond this is still a personal milestone, so yay.
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Apr 7, 2018 18:36
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Hey, what was that link to the Query Tracker style website, but specifically for publishers and not Agents? Also I've started work on my second novel! Chose the western fantasy story to focus on, Bullets and Bones. Having a lot of fun planning stuff around swarms of chupacabras and the Ghost Ship Mary Celeste
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Apr 7, 2018 18:50
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Congratulations, both of you!Burkion posted:Hey, what was that link to the Query Tracker style website, but specifically for publishers and not Agents? Are you thinking of one of these? http://thegrinder.diabolicalplots.com https://duotrope.com They are both more focused on publishing short stories, but they do list publishers who accept direct submissions of novels from authors. Most of the big publishing houses and their subsidiaries only accept manuscripts from agents. Be careful and do your research before going with a small press. For example, searching for places that accept fantasy novels, there are 109 results, but only 5 that are recognized by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America as "professional markets." That doesn't mean those are the only "good" publishers, but they ARE the publishers you'll see in stores like Barnes & Nobles (lol who goes to actual stores anymore). You might find some small press books in independent bookstores, especially if they have a local or specialty focus. That doesn't mean small presses are bad! I've written a bit more about publishing, and the different kinds of publishers, in the OPs, too. The 5 pro fantasy markets that are open for novel submissions are: Baen Books DAW Books Flame Tree Publishing Tor Books Tor Books UK Irrelevant: I am very proud that I picked 4/5 of those out of the big list on my own :P Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 23:48
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:For example, searching for places that accept fantasy novels, there are 109 results, but only 5 that are recognized by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association as "professional markets." That doesn't mean those are the only "good" publishers, but they ARE the publishers you'll see in stores like Barnes & Nobles (lol who goes to actual stores anymore). You might find some small press books in independent bookstores, especially if they have a local or specialty focus. That doesn't mean small presses are bad! I've written a bit more about publishing, and the different kinds of publishers, in the OPs, too. SFWA qualifying markets aren't the only good publishers around but it's got nothing to to with whether or not you see their books in shops. The information is on this page; scroll down past the long lists of qualifying markets and you'll see that the requirements are paying a decent rate, having been open longer than a year, printing at least 1000 copies of a book/magazine, and not being a scam. There are small presses on the list. SFWA is an authors' association, it's there to protect writers, not decide who's a "good" or "bad" publisher. tl;dr Be careful submitting something to a non-SFWA approved market. They have a lot of useful information about not getting scammed here. It's Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, btw.
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Apr 8, 2018 05:52
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Safety Biscuits posted:It's Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, btw. Doh. Fixed that in original post. That's what I get for being lazy. And I second looking at their Writer Beware information. I should maybe bold that part of the OPs. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 06:55
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So it's looking like I'll get published this year no matter what. Thanks to some long time giant monster fandom connections, I got hit up to write a short story for the Kaiju Against Cancer anthology book due out later this year https://www.facebook.com/KaijuVsCancer/ It's not much but it all goes to St. Jude and it's a start!
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Apr 9, 2018 05:03
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Oh hey speaking of tenses, I just finished a book that alternated POV with tense and perspective(?) Like - first person past tense, third person present tense, so you always know which person is represented in the story, and also the third-person present tense actually reads like the first-person past tense is recounting what the other person did, "Jane goes up to the door and says 'hey prick open up'". It struck me as really odd for about two chapters and then it really fell into place. Can I remember the title of the book? No. I want to say "The Silence" maybe? But I could be wrong.
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Apr 9, 2018 18:10
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Doing weird stuff with tenses seems like jerking off to me. "Oh look at me and my unique voice, I'm so clever." Anything that's outside of the norms of fiction is that way, really. You have to have a drat good reason to do something odd, or you're just making it tedious for the reader. Of course, I haven't read that book, either. Maybe there's a good story reason for it and I'm being an old grump again.
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Apr 9, 2018 18:56
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Yeah alternating tense and POV without a very good story-centric reason always feels very pretentious to me. Even on pretty good books, it always seems to be heavily offputting to people. I know tons of people who read The Fifth Season and had to be told "believe me it's worth it" when complaining about the pseudo-second-person. I haven't been able to get very far into the book myself because the POV feels kind of forced, and I'm even excited, at least as a writer, to see what she does with it. I know I've read a book that was more egregious with pov/tense changes and it was infuriating. I think like so many other writing devices that verge on gimmicks, you need to be very certain that what you gain from breaking with convention is worth what you might lose in readability/relatability/immersion. That said I'm sure there's some PoMo novel out there I haven't run into that does it to stunning effect or something. Hell even when I finish one book in past tense and pick up one in present tense, it feels unnatural for a while. I don't know how I'd do with a book that switches every chapter or whatever.
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Apr 9, 2018 19:10
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writers should try all the things always, but they should be prepared to suck at it most of the time
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Apr 9, 2018 19:11
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all writing should be 3rd/past, all pizza should be cheese, all chicken should be nuggets if you try to get fancy with it you might upset the grognard hegemony of genrefic fandom
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Apr 9, 2018 19:14
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Sitting Here posted:writers should try all the things always, but they should be prepared to suck at it most of the time I totally agree, I just feel like (at least among my writer friends) doing things like the tense stuff discussed above usually comes from a place of "I want my book/story/bathroom stall scrawls to be unique and memorable" rather than "I want to experiment with a different approach and see where it leads me." Like, there's nothing wrong with the first motivation, if you want to make a living as a writer it's something you have to consider, but it's not a great justification for really experimental approaches because you're not necessarily going to be thinking about what that approach contributes to the writing.
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Apr 9, 2018 19:14
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we live in the time of endless reboots, honestly i would chew all my limbs off if it meant unconventional and outsider art had its day in the mainstream like, i'm not even a cultured or well-read person, but right now the pendulum of taste is swung all the way in the direction of what is familiar and effortlessly palatable and it's, imo, dumb af
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Apr 9, 2018 19:20
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Sitting Here posted:like, i'm not even a cultured or well-read person, but right now the pendulum of taste is swung all the way in the direction of what is familiar and effortlessly palatable and it's, imo, dumb af Hey if you can do it and it doesn't suck, go nuts. Heck, do it even if it does suck. Just be aware that most of the time you're huffing your own farts and putting a lot of effort into it.
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Apr 9, 2018 20:03
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There's nothing wrong with palatable. You can be palatable and challenging at the same time.
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Apr 9, 2018 20:14
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feedmyleg posted:There's nothing wrong with palatable. You can be palatable and challenging at the same time. Yeah like I get wanting to see more variety and experimentation, but that's different from "I'm not enjoying the experience of reading this so it MUST be good!"
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Apr 9, 2018 20:25
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Oh speaking of (sorta) - I just read About Writing by Samuel Delany, which I enjoyed and identified with a lot more than the last book I read on writing (Bird By Bird). However, along with a lot of really solid advice and interesting perspectives on fiction writing, it also had a lot more emphasis on ~magnificent craftsmanship~ than I personally care about. I think if I had read it a few years ago, I would have found it more discouraging than inspiring, because it sort of dismisses 'merely good' writing as being fundamentally less valuable than 'great' writing, a stance I can't really agree with.
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Apr 9, 2018 20:33
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Mirage posted:...huffing your own farts and putting a lot of effort into it. this is literally my definition of all writing, so
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Apr 9, 2018 20:37
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I will say this about that -- the writer in me protested much longer than the reader, as is the case with a lot of books. It's really hard to shut up your writer-brain. The book I'm reading right now* shifts POV so often within chapters it's mind boggling, at least until I stopped screaming like a baby about the rule-breaker and his lovely writing, and then oh poo poo, I actually like the story. *Swan Song by Robert McCammon. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Apr 9, 2018 |
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Apr 9, 2018 20:44
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Burkion posted:So it's looking like I'll get published this year no matter what. Congraulations dood!
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Apr 9, 2018 23:28
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A ways back I wrote a whole first draft in third person present tense because I wanted the story to have 'immediacy', and it was unspeakably bad, but also a learning experience which showed me why that story needed to be in first person past tense, and that I needed to take a step back and learn how to write first person.
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Apr 9, 2018 23:41
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Sitting Here posted:all writing should be 3rd/past, all pizza should be cheese, all chicken should be nuggets gently caress Sitting Here posted:we live in the time of endless reboots, honestly i would chew all my limbs off if it meant unconventional and outsider art had its day in the mainstream yes Everything I've loved reading these days has broken every drat genre workshop writing rule that exists. I can't even get my writer-peen up these days unless I'm doing something I know is wrong wrong so very wrong I should be shot for even trying to write this Most of what I write is bad as gently caress Idc Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 00:13
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Stuporstar posted:
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Apr 10, 2018 00:34
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I've read a story told in non-linear epistolary format with paragraphs from two sources interleaved so it alternated between an article about the protagonist's birth and the protagonist's death. And that was in a sci-fi book, which everyone knows means it was genre garbage for babies.
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Apr 10, 2018 01:03
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Djeser posted:I've read a story told in non-linear epistolary format with paragraphs from two sources interleaved so it alternated between an article about the protagonist's birth and the protagonist's death. And that was in a sci-fi book, which everyone knows means it was genre garbage for babies. House of Leaves or S?
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Apr 10, 2018 01:43
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magnificent7 posted:House of Leaves or S? Radiance by Catherynne M. Valente. (That's just the first chapter.)
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Apr 10, 2018 01:56
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I've read two really good books in the past month that used unusual structure and narrative voice, Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders and Multiple Choice by Alejandro Zambra. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks described these books as fart-huffing or whatever, but the non-traditional choices were central to the whole point of the books. Once I accepted the non-traditional elements, they made the books absolutely delightful to read. It wasn't a matter of me feeling super-smart for "figuring it out" or whatever, the effect and the way it contributed to/interacted with the content was enjoyable and satisfying to read. It made the books more than what they would have been if they had been written in third-person past. Actually, it would be impossible to write them in third-person past. Also, I don't see any problem with an author liking their own work or feeling smart and clever. If authors are just supposed to write things that they feel badly about, what's the point. Or if they are just supposed to write things that are what most people find easiest or most fun to read. Not every book needs to be enjoyable to me personally. Just because I don't like a book or something an author did in a book doesn't make it wrong, doesn't mean the author should have done something different, and doesn't mean the author is feeling good about themselves when they shouldn't be (which is I think the meaning of huffing your own farts). When it comes to newer writers, I think most, especially around here, do want to write things where broadly palatable is more important than messing around with form, and so giving them advice on how to do so is helpful. I don't think that egos need to be stroked or hugs need to be given all around. But I also don't see much value in broadly discouraging experimentation or accusing people who do of personal flaws like arrogance (unless it's funny). Says person who wrote 30k+ words telling people how they should write lol ... I have transcended through writing advice, and henceforth will only give meta-advice on how to give advice Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 03:16
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showbiz_liz posted:Oh speaking of (sorta) - I just read About Writing by Samuel Delany, which I enjoyed and identified with a lot more than the last book I read on writing (Bird By Bird). However, along with a lot of really solid advice and interesting perspectives on fiction writing, it also had a lot more emphasis on ~magnificent craftsmanship~ than I personally care about. I think if I had read it a few years ago, I would have found it more discouraging than inspiring, because it sort of dismisses 'merely good' writing as being fundamentally less valuable than 'great' writing, a stance I can't really agree with. Hey, I've got that sitting on my dresser right now! With that book, bear in mind that Delaney is basing it around lectures and essays for people already in writing programs, so there's an expectation that they're comfortable enough with their work to share it. And having taken those classes, I know how important it is try and get a little more "oomph" out of participants. There's also the aspect where he's trying to get genre writers to move outside their comfort zone and explore fiction as an art form. I've been trying a similar push at my con, and it can definitely be an uphill battle. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Says person who wrote 30k+ words telling people how they should write lol ... I have transcended through writing advice, and henceforth will only give meta-advice on how to give advice We should talk.
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Apr 10, 2018 13:40
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After The War posted:Hey, I've got that sitting on my dresser right now! With that book, bear in mind that Delaney is basing it around lectures and essays for people already in writing programs, so there's an expectation that they're comfortable enough with their work to share it. And having taken those classes, I know how important it is try and get a little more "oomph" out of participants. This is all totally fair! And I'd still definitely recommend it. (It also made me want to check out his book Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, which as I understand it is about 50% intricate meditations on the nature of urban space and 50% memoirs of gay orgies in '70s porn theaters.)
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Apr 10, 2018 16:25
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