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Pablo Bluth posted:Iran also has a higher rating than Saudi Arabia. We're buying oil from the wrong side... Well, we tried to buy* oil from Iran but they turned down our very generous** deal.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:02
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Angepain posted:Happy International Transgender Day of Visibility everyone. The thread is sadly not 100% trans people yet but as far as I can tell we are making progress so well done, and everyone else please keep taking deep breaths when you see the chemtrails, nothing to be afraid of we promise. Today is a day intended to bring focus on transgender people and the issues they still face in life. What an important-sounding day, I'm sure our incredibly woke friends at the Guardian will be very respectful on this particular day and not- You laugh but their forums are busy with a letter writing campaign to the girl guides to stop them being inclusive to trans girls and they are an easy story for the rags to pick up on.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:03
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I mean, we shouldn't forget that the Graun is a rightwing rag, it's just a liberal rightwing rag as opposed to a fascist one.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:05
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I support my trans friends in their egg cracking endeavours.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:07
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Rarity posted:How the hell do half the Labour membership justify this country as a force of good? We do some horrible poo poo here. Because to be fair a lot of the world is worse. Some of this we’re responsible for through destabilising acts. See most of Africa. Some of it isn’t really our fault at all. I think it all depends on how much you care about historical incidents. Ignoring all our past crimes we’re a relatively benign country compared to the US or Russia. China basically has no human rights and murders prisoners for organs. Even Australia has a concentration camp where it disappears refugees. Lot of bad poo poo out there.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:08
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Total Meatlove posted:You laugh but their forums are busy with a letter writing campaign to the girl guides to stop them being inclusive to trans girls and they are an easy story for the rags to pick up on. "Only lived experience as a woman matters, and it is unfeminist to tell people to ignore the needs of the wider group. That's why we're going to gently caress up kids and tell them not to live as women from a young age while ignoring their needs to do so" - apparently feminists? I didn't exactly need to be dragged left by this forum, I've always been happy to charge down this road. But here we are and "loving bourgeois feminists" is now a thing that enters my head on a regular basis.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:10
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Regarde Aduck posted:Even Australia has a concentration camp where it disappears refugees. Lot of bad poo poo out there. Yeah we have one of these too, but it's actually on British soil
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Mar 31, 2018 11:11
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Regarde Aduck posted:Because to be fair a lot of the world is worse. Some of this we’re responsible for through destabilising acts. See most of Africa. Some of it isn’t really our fault at all. I think it all depends on how much you care about historical incidents. Ignoring all our past crimes we’re a relatively benign country compared to the US or Russia. China basically has no human rights and murders prisoners for organs. Even Australia has a concentration camp where it disappears refugees. Lot of bad poo poo out there. I think just by virtue of being one of the world's biggest weapons exporters we have to go down as a force for bad. A lot of pain and suffering and conflict can be traced back to us. And this is before you think about rape-approving immigration centres, deporting homeless people, deporting people who come to hospital, deporting people reporting crimes, internal racism and hate crimes, denying disabled people benefits and all the other various poo poo that this government and the right-wing in this country gets up to. Or One Direction. Rarity fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 11:19
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Rarity posted:I think just by virtue of being one of the world's biggest weapons exporters we have to go down as a force for bad. A lot of pain and suffering and conflict can be traced back to us.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:25
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Tsaedje posted:Yeah we have one of these too, but it's actually on British soil Those are explicitly not for boat people, but rather tunnel people, lorry people and motorboat people. Not that there are many (origin-outside-EU) boat people coming into the UK the first place of course.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:25
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if you want to rank the crimes of the western world, all the arms exporting and imperialism is dwarfed by 'sitting on a dragon's hoard while millions die of infectious diseases' that said, the practical alternative to the current western hyperpower is a set of squabbling regional hegemonies which involve much more suffering under much more burdensome yokes. so from that perspective, yeah we're a force for good. coffeetable fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 11:26
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coffeetable posted:imperialism is dwarfed by 'sitting on a dragon's hoard while millions die of infectious diseases' Where do you think that dragons hoard came from?
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Mar 31, 2018 11:31
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Tsaedje posted:Yeah we have one of these too, but it's actually on British soil Reminder: Home Office refuses to reveal whether women in Yarl's Wood have been raped in case it 'damages the commercial interests' of companies
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Mar 31, 2018 11:33
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Cerebral Bore posted:I mean, we shouldn't forget that the Graun is a rightwing rag, it's just a liberal rightwing rag as opposed to a fascist one. I stopped reading the Graun thanks to its Corbyn coverage, and actively removed it from my Google and Facebook feeds when they called Black Panther "mediocre".
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Mar 31, 2018 11:33
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Total Meatlove posted:You laugh but their forums are busy with a letter writing campaign to the girl guides to stop them being inclusive to trans girls and they are an easy story for the rags to pick up on. Hadley Freeman has form as a TERF, this isn't a one off. Note the dogwhistle when she said how happy she was mumsnet has a lot of 'radical feminists' these days. They also tend very much to 'all sex workers are trafficked' and also 'all porn is morally wrong' iirc.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:33
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domestic capital accumulation, not Wallersteinian primitive accumulation, by and large
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Mar 31, 2018 11:35
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coffeetable posted:keep in mind the counterfactual is not that the people we sell weapons to don't have weapons, it's that they have someone else's weapons. just at a slightly lower quality, or a slightly higher price This is the argument used to justify the entire arms industry and it completely misses the point. The buyers don't have somebody else's weapons, they have ours and they use them to bomb people and shoot people. We have direct responsibility for that. If we don't sell them then that's not going to change everything overnight but it's a start and the next time a school in Yemen gets blown to pieces we'll at least know it wasn't because of anything we did. feedmegin posted:Hadley Freeman has form as a TERF, this isn't a one off. I used to like her column back in the days when I was young and innocent 
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Mar 31, 2018 11:43
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Rarity posted:This is the argument used to justify the entire arms industry and it completely misses the point. The buyers don't have somebody else's weapons, they have ours and they use them to bomb people and shoot people. We have direct responsibility for that. If we don't sell them then that's not going to change everything overnight but it's a start and the next time a school in Yemen gets blown to pieces we'll at least know it wasn't because of anything we did. Also arms manufacturing isn't some kind of infinite supply situation. If you want something else than Soviet-era surplus AK:s (or variants thereof) you can't just immediately switch over to somebody else. That poo poo takes a while, and in the meantime the saudis can't massacre quite as many Yemeni children.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:55
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Cerebral Bore posted:Also arms manufacturing isn't some kind of infinite supply situation. If you want something else than Soviet-era surplus AK:s (or variants thereof) you can't just immediately switch over to somebody else. That poo poo takes a while, and in the meantime the saudis can't massacre quite as many Yemeni children. https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312
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Mar 31, 2018 11:55
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coffeetable posted:if you want to rank the crimes of the western world, all the arms exporting and imperialism is dwarfed by 'sitting on a dragon's hoard while millions die of infectious diseases' If you are counting utility then the work George Bush did to reduce AIDS in Africa makes him one of the greatest forces for good ever.
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Mar 31, 2018 11:58
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I know its a contentious issue but I want to understand. What are 'the rules' for self identifying as your not original gender. In all the debates and arguments it seems like anyone can just decide to self-identify as whatever and it is because a person decides makes it so. Dont have a problem with that personally but is it a real commitment, does it even matter if it isn't? I get the feeling that the main problem the feminist group has is that the situation is that any man can wake up one morning and decide to identify themselves as a women and expect to be treated as a women with all everything that goes along with it. Just so my personal stance is clear im aware that gender identity disorder is a thing that is real and i could give a toss if people want to identify as anything and think the feminist group is being a bit over the top in its reaction. There is stuff I dont understand about all this, help pls!
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Mar 31, 2018 12:05
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Alchenar posted:If you are counting utility then the work George Bush did to reduce AIDS in Africa makes him one of the greatest forces for good ever. I know you often just pop into this thread to post inflammatory stuff to get people to react, but instead I am going to gesture at the Middle East meaningfully and question how you judge "utility".
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Mar 31, 2018 12:06
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Alchenar posted:If you are counting utility then the work George Bush did to reduce AIDS in Africa makes him one of the greatest forces for good ever. there's a difference between 'being a great force for good' and ' being good' though - the second is relative to the opportunities available to you to do good. the woman who starves herself to feed a child is 'more good', even though she has a far smaller impact. im still uncertain about how i should combine the two ideas when deciding how much i admire people. best example is bill gates. he's likely intentionally saved more people through generosity than anyone else who's ever lived, but none of his charity has required him to sacrifice anything in terms of quality of life.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:07
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Here’s a question that came up in a wide-ranging convo last night (and which I genuinely have no position on so I’m interested in UKMTthink on the matter): How is drag acceptable but blackface not?
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Mar 31, 2018 12:07
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Can someone run the numbers on deaths from AIDS in Africa vs wars in the middle east?
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Mar 31, 2018 12:08
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Josef bugman posted:I know you often just pop into this thread to post inflammatory stuff to get people to react, but instead I am going to gesture at the Middle East meaningfully and question how you judge "utility". (though i suspect the knock-on effects of destroying several country's sanitary and medical infrastructures might come close)
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Mar 31, 2018 12:10
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Alan Sugar deleted his tweet, so I went to see if he was whining about doing it. He was but forget that because I just saw he's too precious to swear on twitter and laughing at that takes priority. https://twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/979917124662648832
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Mar 31, 2018 12:11
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Seaside Loafer posted:I know its a contentious issue but I want to understand. What are 'the rules' for self identifying as your not original gender. In all the debates and arguments it seems like anyone can just decide to self-identify as whatever and it is because a person decides makes it so. Dont have a problem with that personally but is it a real commitment, does it even matter if it isn't? This doesn't happen (or at least not in good faith), because "everything that goes with it" generally includes being absolutely poo poo on by society at large. superLINUS posted:Here’s a question that came up in a wide-ranging convo last night (and which I genuinely have no position on so I’m interested in UKMTthink on the matter): One kinda big difference I can think of is that the way people dress is a social costruct while the color of your skin isn't. E: Alchenar posted:If you are counting utility then the work George Bush did to reduce AIDS in Africa makes him one of the greatest forces for good ever. Would you also argue that Stalin was one of the greatest forces for good ever? Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 12:11
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the United States will probably become a net energy exporter in our time, meaning that suddenly nobody with the means will have an interest in maintaining the stability of the Gulf region. Well, besides the Chinese and the Indians. I wonder how they will handle things? China already has a naval base in Djibouti.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:16
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ronya posted:the United States will probably become a net energy exporter in our time, meaning that suddenly nobody with the means will have an interest in maintaining the stability of the Gulf region. Funny how you think the US' need for oil is a drive to stabilise the middle-east.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:18
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China is one of the few countries that isn't shy about building hella nuke plants, so I think they'll manage somehow.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:20
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superLINUS posted:Here’s a question that came up in a wide-ranging convo last night (and which I genuinely have no position on so I’m interested in UKMTthink on the matter): Blackface and minstrelsy began as forms of derision and hate speech towards enslaved people while they were enslaved and gradually cloaked itself in various different prerformance mediums in order to justify its continued existence. Drag, on the other hand, began in the performing arts and has a long, long tradition and since it often actively subverts gender expectations rather than reinforcing existing power structures like a blackface performance would, I don't reckon the two are directly comparable. It also cuts both ways along gender lines with cis female drag performers performing male roles, which I don't think anybody could argue to be punching down. That's not to say some drag performances aren't problematic, just that drag doesn't necessarily have to be and these days it usually isn't. That's my take anyway.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:21
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e: ^^^^ yeah, the radical difference in the history of blackface and drag make it hard to really compare the two. Cerebral Bore posted:One kinda big difference I can think of is that the way people dress is a social costruct while the color of your skin isn't. It’s also important to note that, even in the queer community, there’s a back and forth on the acceptability of drag. Being involved in and part of the local queer community, I’ve definitely seen a shift towards increased discussion of the potentially problematic facets of drag. Mechanical mandible fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 12:25
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Mechanical mandible posted:It’s also important to note that, even in the queer community, there’s a back and forth on the acceptability of drag. Being involved in and part of the local queer community, I’ve definitely seen a shift towards increased discussion of the potentially problematic facets of drag. I mean, it's absolutely a discussion for the queer community to have, and the rest of us should accept whatever consensus that eventually emerges. Much like we should accept that blackface is unacceptable, because the black community has made their opinion on the matter quite clear.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:29
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Not Operator posted:What are the chances Israel's recent whoopsie (murdering and wounding protesters) will prevent some hack journo from purposely conflating that "Israel bad" part of the opinion poll into something to keep the antisemitism story on life support? Journalists just ignore any news from Israel, they'll get incredibly pissed off if you bring up the fact Israel can't stop torturing children or shooting them in the face for no loving reason because to them Israel is unimpeachable and it's all just mistakes made in doing a perfectly legitimate peace action. Everything Israel does is "Lone Wolf Gunman" even when it's so blatantly tied to their weirdly right wing government and trying to get them to actually report on some of the horrific poo poo going on there is just going to bounce off a "No I don't want to talk about that, I will not talk about that" It's a lot like trying to bring up Iraq to a Tony Blair fan, they'll get incredibly pissed you even dare talk about it as if it's somehow unfair to mention the one thing they find really hard to defend. Fans fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 12:35
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Seaside Loafer posted:I get the feeling that the main problem the feminist group has is that the situation is that any man can wake up one morning and decide to identify themselves as a women and expect to be treated as a women with all everything that goes along with it. a) As Cerebral Bore this doesn't really happen. The only time people facetiously decide to do this is when they're specifically trying to mock transgendered people or engage in identity politics (see those two posters from Mumsnet who decided to join an all-mens swim club) b) Even if it was something that happened often, why would that be a bad thing and why shouldn't they be treated like women? There is nothing inherent about the male or female experience that means it should be guarded from those with the opposite chromosomes.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:35
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Seaside Loafer posted:I know its a contentious issue but I want to understand. What are 'the rules' for self identifying as your not original gender. In all the debates and arguments it seems like anyone can just decide to self-identify as whatever and it is because a person decides makes it so. Dont have a problem with that personally but is it a real commitment, does it even matter if it isn't? I helped some trans friends with the legal/paperwork load, so I'll have a crack until the threads transitioned posters want to write something better at the moment you have to get a gender recognition certificate, and there are two routes for this Medical - you convince your Dr to refer you to a shrink, sit on a waiting list for however long that takes, the psych identifies the probably cause as gender identity disorder (which they have no formal training in that I'm aware of and even the smoothest cases I've seen with friends haven't been easy), you get referred to a gender identity clinic (I think 3 serving all UK), wait for an appointment, have the diagnosis of gender identity disorder confirmed after a few appts (2 was quickest I've seen friends get but I've heard rubber-stamping at this stage can happen to try and deal with the backlog, and I think that's not really a bad thing). Once you've done that and can demonstrate that you've lived in your acquired identity for a minimum of two years, you testify this along with your intent to live as you currently present forever, and bam. Easy. Two years lived experience + medical treatment where 2 years isn't far off as an estimate of wait times. If you begin a complete transition as you start the medical process you can start treatment at the same time as the GRC which is nice Experiential - The same as above, but only if you've been married or in a recognised civil partnership, 6 years transition before 2014 not 2 until the present, but you can substitute a diagnosis for major physical surgery. I've never, ever seen the alternate/experiential route and I assume it's the grandfathered option for people who were trans before the government recognised gender dysphoria (and who will understandably not like psychiatrists) I vaguely remember some attacks against trans representation when I started getting involved in the quiltbag community a few years back, that were pretty easy to demolish by pointing out that someone without a serious need to stop being forced to present a gender they simply can't tolerate will never, ever do this. The reason it has more steam now is because Labour have rightly argued that this process is not a good way to treat people, and they aren't going to require it for inclusion in women's categories. It would be very convenient for some dull fucker to actually try and decide they're a women just for the women's groups, so the party can stamp on them a lot, chuck them out in disgrace, and make clear that bad-faith is always bad faith and can't be tolerated. The reasons it won't though are the same reasons that the medical community finally made up its mind - your identity is a fragile psychological construct and not something very easy to lie about consistently. It wants to be seen and you can't make it go away. Cerebral Bore posted:I mean, it's absolutely a discussion for the queer community to have, and the rest of us should accept whatever consensus that eventually emerges. Much like we should accept that blackface is unacceptable, because the black community has made their opinion on the matter quite clear. I'm fascinated when people in the local gay bars bring up this conversation and the only consensus I've seen consistently is that drag is really popular with straight guys and has had a diluting effect on gay bars as majority-queer places e; Rarity posted:b) Even if it was something that happened often, why would that be a bad thing and why shouldn't they be treated like women? There is nothing inherent about the male or female experience that means it should be guarded from those with the opposite chromosomes. nothing would please me more than to find out a leading TERF is XY with androgen insensitivity syndrome and to see how far they're willing to take a comitment modern feminists may not even have been aware was ever an argument made in good faith Spangly A fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 12:49
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Drag is often a part of someone's sexual identity in a way that blackface is not.
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Mar 31, 2018 12:54
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Fans posted:Journalists just ignore any news from Israel, they'll get incredibly pissed off if you bring up the fact Israel can't stop torturing children or shooting them in the face for no loving reason because to them Israel is unimpeachable and it's all just mistakes made in doing a perfectly legitimate peace action. Nah they're just blaming HAMAS https://twitter.com/BoardofDeputies/status/979727351511769088 Damned HAMAS, using the protesting civilians to force the IDF into shooting children in the back as they flee in terror.
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Mar 31, 2018 13:01
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The proposals aren't final yet (I'm mostly basing this off of the Scottish consultation as this is what I'm most familiar with and the UK Tories got scared by the sunday times or whatever) but the proposed self-declaration reforms to legal gender recognition are based on making a legal statutory declaration that they "are applying of their own free will; understand the consequences of obtaining legal gender recognition; and intend to live in their acquired gender until death." Someone declaring this falsely or making a frivolous declaration would be committing an actual offence. So if Barry M. Dudeman wants to legally pretend to be a woman to own the fems, he either needs to a) open himself up to being done for what I believe is actual perjury (i am not a lawyer) or b) spend the rest of his life living as an actual woman, in which case he's basically transitioned for all intents and purposes so uh have fun with that barry. (For that matter, if he wants to skip the legal route and just get on an all-woman shortlist, then it's basically the same situation except replace a) with "make the people voting for you aware that you think gender identity if a funny joke and you're okay with openly lying to them", good luck with that one mate) Not to mention that self-id laws have existed in other countries without this becoming a problem, and also that the gender recognition act doesn't actually affect that much - without legal gender recognition people in the UK can already change their name, alter their bank details, use their choice of bathroom, and i believe even change the gender on their passport (although I think that might still need a doctor to vouch for you afaik). In fact, in order to legally change your gender now you actually have to have already lived in that gender for two years and all that stuff is usually taken as evidence. Note I haven't actually gone through this process yet so this is all second-hand but many of the scary supposed consequences of the proposed GRA changes spoken about are by and large already happening without the sky falling in on anyone.
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