|
This is great because that's exactly the tonnage that I like to be at. Followup question then -- what is the concern about why RACs don't play well with other weapons? Is it the spin-up time or heat management or something? It seems like it wouldn't be much more difficult to manage than say, Gauss Vomit. Just wondering if it would be more managable with something heavier (for more armor to protect you when hosing down enemies) and then pairing with LRMs so you're never trying to juggle both weapon types at the same time? I'm still really bad at this game, but I feel like I'm slowly learning.
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 20:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 07:21 |
|
|
Leif. posted:This is great because that's exactly the tonnage that I like to be at. Followup question then -- what is the concern about why RACs don't play well with other weapons? Is it the spin-up time or heat management or something? It seems like it wouldn't be much more difficult to manage than say, Gauss Vomit. Just wondering if it would be more managable with something heavier (for more armor to protect you when hosing down enemies) and then pairing with LRMs so you're never trying to juggle both weapon types at the same time? The problem with weapons that force you to 'hold on target' is that you're shooting at someone who is evading and twisting and spreading your damage while you're being shot by his buddy that has a perfect, easy and repeatable shot at all your squishy bits. This, sadly, is part of why this game is much more about high damage alphas than it is about sustained damage over time and why further idiot design is layered on top of that in an attempt to mitigate it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 20:34
|
|
|
Leif. posted:what is the concern about why RACs don't play well with other weapons? For one, they are a projectile weapon, so they take time to travel to their target, meaning unless you only shoot stationary targets, hitscan weapons (lasers, machineguns) will not share the same aiming profile. So if you want other projectile weapons, you could pick PPCs, but they are too hot to pair with an already hot weapon, and PPCs shine in their peek-and-poke role, which is opposite to the RAC role of "stare them in the face". So let's say you pick missile weapons. LRMs are just bad, same with streaks. MRM would maybe be the most effective, but they are better at closer ranges, so that minimizes the mid-range benefit of the RAC/5. SRMs are 'alpha' weapons, meaning you fire them all at once (usually) and twist away to spread damage before firing again - also completely contrary to the RAC/5. You could pick other autocannons, but if you're doing that already, why not use the slots for more of the same, and save the jamming, winding up, and face-staring requirements. All that means is that RACs are very niche weapons, that can be as effective as other weapons in a fire support role, in a mech that is designed or quirked to use them at mid-range, like a micro-direwolf, the 'mobile' turret gameplay style.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 20:35
|
|
|
Leif. posted:This is great because that's exactly the tonnage that I like to be at. Followup question then -- what is the concern about why RACs don't play well with other weapons? Is it the spin-up time or heat management or something? It seems like it wouldn't be much more difficult to manage than say, Gauss Vomit. Just wondering if it would be more managable with something heavier (for more armor to protect you when hosing down enemies) and then pairing with LRMs so you're never trying to juggle both weapon types at the same time? It's down to two things: firing pattern, and heat management. Firing pattern means how well the weapons synchronize, mostly based on projectile speed and cooldown. Autocannons are a poor compliment to lasers or other weapon systems because of their lower velocity. Leading is required to hit anything distant or fast-moving, which means you can't simultaneously fire other weapons with faster—or no—projectiles. This is especially the case for RACs due to their exceptionally long firing time compared to everything else in the game. This limitation doesn't apply as much to gauss rifles, both due to their high velocity and because their charge-up single projectiles allow for quick firing, minimizing things like lost laser duration due to aim adjustment. Heat management, on the other hand, is a simple concept but one that's oft underestimated, especially by newer players. The example you give of RACs and LRMs makes some sense for the perspective of their firing patterns, LRMs don't care where you're looking so long as you've got a lock, but it is wildly heat-inefficient. RACs on their own are already pretty warm, and LRMs have some of the lowest heat-to-damage ratios in the game. Mixing them drastically lowers a mech's sustained DPS, without any appreciable gain in burst damage. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 20:50
|
|
|
That all makes sense, I guess the idea I was considering would be to be back in the second line, hose down some dudes with RAC fire, then duck back behind cover and volley off a couple of LRM salvos while I'm waiting for people to forget about me -- not for any real intention of getting better burst damage, but more like sustaining some DPS while I'm back in cover; I'm fully aware of how lovely LRMs are. Sounds though like the goon consensus is that isn't really worth it and I'd be better off not even worrying about the LRMs at all due to the heat issue, if nothing else.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 21:56
|
|
|
LRMs are only worth boating and never worth playing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:02
|
|
|
The thing is, the 'hosing down' thing sounds a lot better in theory than it is. Unless you're playing against brand new players, everyone out there will either be next to cover 100% of the time, or pushing you. If They're by cover, the second they realize they're taking RAC fire they will alpha you and then slip into cover, and now they've done more damage to you than you did to them, and even worse they're getting ready to pop out and punish you but your RACs are on spindown and will have to spin up again. By the time they do that, it will be too late and you won't get to fire at the dude using cover. On the other hand, a guy pushing you is going to be doing that if he has a mech that is meant to push, probably with SRMs. Your guns are going to hit their jam bar long before he hits his heat cap and has to slow down his firing. Even worse, he's going to be twisting the whole time so you won't be able to put your damage in one place, while you have to stare him in the face. You will die much faster than him. As the others say, RACs are just not very good. Another thing making them bad is that they have severe ghost heat for more than two, i.e. you will instantly blow up and die, don't even bother. Because of the slow cycle for RACs you can't really volley fire them, so having more than two on something like a King Crab is just a waste. For the BSW the double RACs sorta work but that has more to do with the BSW being excellent than RACs. Even for things only marginally heavier you're way better off with something else; the Jagermech, for example can fit quad UAC2s which realistically does about the same damage per second, but with zero spread, no jam bar bullshit meaning there's never a time when you just can't fire, and it does it at better range. You can engage people who are popping in and out of cover even if it's not your ideal engagement, and if you're not just mashing the mouse like a lunatic, being able to aim eight damage twice a second can give you surprisingly precise damage.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:09
|
|
|
Leif. posted:That all makes sense, I guess the idea I was considering would be to be back in the second line, hose down some dudes with RAC fire, then duck back behind cover and volley off a couple of LRM salvos while I'm waiting for people to forget about me -- not for any real intention of getting better burst damage, but more like sustaining some DPS while I'm back in cover; I'm fully aware of how lovely LRMs are. The important thing to grasp here is that time spent in cover does not equal lost DPS, provided your heat is above zero. Baring a few exceptions, sustained DPS is a function of heat and little else. Firing the RACs creates heat, firing the LRMs creates heat. Why use both when you can drop one, add more heatsinks, and increase the uptime on the other? So long as your heat gauge never bottoms out, it has no impact on your damage over the full duration of a match.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
The talk about ACs reminds me. Is there any tip I can get on running the triple UAC2 Dragon build? I feel like I'm just throwing stones at people. Do I just suck?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:26
|
|
|
TheKingslayer posted:The talk about ACs reminds me. Dragon fast, UAC2s long range. You're the dickhead flank sniper that everyone hates. Your job isn't to do damage as much as to make people poo poo themselves in frustration and get murdered trying to kill you. EDIT: I should note though that I haven't played this kind of mech since before the Clans dropped. Fast clan mediums with decent firepower might have put a dent in how effective this playstyle can be.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:31
|
|
|
TheKingslayer posted:The talk about ACs reminds me. Aim gud. Glib, I know, but that build is one of the hardest in the game to play well. UAC/2 slugs are pretty fast, but the steady stream and the mech's preferred range bracket (600m+) requires very solid tracking to reach its peak performance.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:33
|
|
|
Thanks for the tips, y'all. I'm still gonna try the gimmick RAC build once I get a BSW but I'm suitably less excited for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:39
|
|
|
To raise your spirits a bit, here's what RACs are capable of in the hands of a talented pilot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBXf4DZrAtQ&t=248s Consider muting, though, Juju is pretty insufferable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:50
|
|
|
Besides hardpoint loadout, are there any particular factors I should look at that make a mech good for pushing, peeking, or whatever other roles there are? I've mostly picked by consensus up to now. Example, I've heard all variants of the Bushwacker are great, but why is that? Just all the flat armor? What is it specifically good at because of that armor? (Ditto the Urbie I guess but I kind of already know that the role of that is "be an irritating oval office, spam siren all day"  )I don't have a lot of Battletech experience so kind of just knowing that mech X is traditionally good at Y doesn't work for me Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 22:56
|
|
|
Short version? Lots of stuff. Hardpoints, mounts, hitboxes, geometry, quirks, mobility, tech base, and so on. Maybe I'll do an effort post about it. In the specific cast of the Bushwacker: Quirks and geometry. It has some of the biggest armor quirks in the game, and it's long, slender body makes targeting specific torsos difficult, in addition to giving it an almost unassailable deadside. Deadsiding being when you twist to expose one side of your mech to shield the other. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Mar 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:00
|
|
|
Nickiepoo posted:The problem with weapons that force you to 'hold on target' is that you're shooting at someone who is evading and twisting and spreading your damage while you're being shot by his buddy that has a perfect, easy and repeatable shot at all your squishy bits. Idly, its a lot harder to twist your legs. How successfull would a rotary midrange build be that just goes for the feet and ignore the torsos?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:05
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Short version: lots of stuff. Hardpoints, mounts, hitboxes, geometry, quirks, mobility, and so on. Maybe I'll do an effort post about it. Speaking of deadsiding, I get the idea of that, but when do you stop exposing your deadside? As I understand the mechanics, 40% of damage dealt to an already-dead arm is dealt to the corresponding torso instead (or 20% to the CT instead if that torso is dead), and 40% of damage dealt to an already-dead torso is dealt to the center instead. So I'd imagine you'd want to deadside until you're just about to lose the deadside torso, and then just start eating hits on the live side if you have to, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:10
|
|
|
TjyvTompa posted:You can put dual LBX20's on that thing for even more boom boom. The slot requirement made things slow and weird. I'm going to try this setup tonight. More armor. Same 70kph. More brawling.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:18
|
|
|
Ciaphas posted:So I'd imagine you'd want to deadside until you're just about to lose the deadside torso, and then just start eating hits on the live side if you have to, right? Usually long after, depending on the mech and situation. 10 points of damage into a destroyed side torso is only 4 points carried over into the CT. That's much better than taking the full 10 to the 'live' torso. You want to milk that 60% damage reduction for all its worth. A good rule of thumb is to continue abusing your deadside until all the armor is stripped off the CT and you're into structure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:19
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Usually long after, depending on the mech and situation. 10 points of damage into a destroyed side torso is only 4 points carried over into the CT. That's much better than taking the full 10 to the 'live' torso. You want to milk that 60% damage reduction for all its worth. A good rule of thumb is to continue abusing your deadside until all the armor is stripped off the CT and you're into structure. Ah, I guess it's not truly deadsiding, then, if you have any equipment whatsoever in the "dead" torso (including a nonstandard engine)? Maybe that's what's wrong with my BSW-P1, I think I have the SRM6As in my LT and RT when it should be LT and LA. I'll have to check when I get back from work. Might be running a light engine too. I suck at stompytanks 
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:22
|
|
|
Yeah, deadsiding usually refers to the specific practice of putting all your weapons on one side and using the empty side to tank damage. The principle of "shielding" still applies to every mech, though. Even if your weapons are symmetrical, it's a good idea to turn a destroyed torso toward enemy fire to exploit the free damage reduction and protect any remaining weapons. To give a quick overview: Spreading (or twisting) Damage: Moving your mech's torso and sometimes legs erratically while under fire to evenly distribute damage. Shielding: Turning one side of your mech towards enemy fire to protect the other. Deadsiding: Putting all of your weapons on one side the mech and shielding with the empty side. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 29, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
Come do scouting! Loot bag! flamer! SRM gogogo EDIT: Good games, people! Herb Dington fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Mar 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
TheParadigm posted:Idly, its a lot harder to twist your legs. How successfull would a rotary midrange build be that just goes for the feet and ignore the torsos? You'd have to try it because I never have but I've only rarely found targeting legs to be worthwhile in general (on anything bigger than a light).
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 06:17
|
|
|
TheParadigm posted:Idly, its a lot harder to twist your legs. How successfull would a rotary midrange build be that just goes for the feet and ignore the torsos? Not very. The legs on most mechs are narrower than the quite wide cone of fire that the RACs have, so even if your aim is absolutely perfect, a lot of your damage will go into the ground. That's why RACs tend to just go for the biggest, bulkiest part of the torso, so at least the wasted shots hit something. Ciaphas posted:Ah, I guess it's not truly deadsiding, then, if you have any equipment whatsoever in the "dead" torso (including a nonstandard engine)? Maybe that's what's wrong with my BSW-P1, I think I have the SRM6As in my LT and RT when it should be LT and LA. I'll have to check when I get back from work. Losing some heatsinks in a deadside build is usually not a big deal, or a medium laser or two, but deadsiding with a light engine or clan XL is usually not so great, the penalties you take for losing a side with those are huge.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 06:18
|
|
|
Nickiepoo posted:You'd have to try it because I never have but I've only rarely found targeting legs to be worthwhile in general (on anything bigger than a light). idiots that boat huge ballistic builds on assaults will always cut some armor on the legs, it gets funny when its down to 20 or so and they stored the ammo down there. also, back armor damage is an alarm bell. A leg getting hit is less so
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 06:19
|
|
|
aniviron posted:Losing some heatsinks in a deadside build is usually not a big deal, or a medium laser or two, but deadsiding with a light engine or clan XL is usually not so great, the penalties you take for losing a side with those are huge. Yeah, I keep trying to run an MPL Urbie but the heat requirements make me run a light, and trying to deadside on the right takes me down to 70kph in short order  (ed) Someone convince me not to spend like $36 on the Mad Cat civil war pack
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 06:24
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Short version? Lots of stuff. Hardpoints, mounts, hitboxes, geometry, quirks, mobility, tech base, and so on. Maybe I'll do an effort post about it. The geometry is specifically why it has all those quirks. It's not good. It has a bunch of random poo poo hanging off of it that means you can knock off the side torsos from any angle no matter how it is twisting, and even when it twists the damage won't be splashing to the other torsos. Bushwackers with deadsides will have their deadsides targeted no matter how you twist IF the other person knows what they're doing. That's why they're strong. The people who don't know what the gently caress they're doing won't try to target it on those places that it can't twist damage away from, and will just randomly spam damage at it without a second thought of what they're actually doing. Those people get to chew through the pile of armor quirks that it has because of that decision. The quirks and hardpoints are what makes the bushwacker good. All the other IS 55 tonners have poo poo hard points (with a few exceptions for very specific builds like griffin SRM bombers) because they're all located in absolutely horrible places or are on absolutely horrible chassis. The only functional wolverine has all its lasers in its hulk hand that can get shot off, the kintaro is a huge turd, and the griffin struggles to do anything except lobotomize people with SRMs. Commoners fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 22:25
|
|
|
You're right about it having good hardpoints, but I disagree heavily on the geometry. Yes, they'll try to shoot your weapon torso, but when turned 90° the target profile on it and the CT is razor thin. If play and position well, you force the enemy team to either fire into 60% damage reduction or not fire at all. Both are good for you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 22:39
|
|
|
Commoners posted:and the griffin struggles to do anything except lobotomize people with SRMs. You say this like it's not the most fun way to play any mech. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
Ask me about my stealth griffin
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 00:47
|
|
|
Third World Reggin posted:Ask me about my stealth griffin Tell me about your stealth griffing because i have no idea wtf to do with the sparky i foolishly bought a while back
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
It doesn't work well but it is really fun to sneak up on people and go bang bang from behind since quick play has a lot of people who don't understand how you just disappear from targeting. I ending putting on two large pulse lasers and my damage is poo poo but it is really fun. My gimmick is every suit is IS ECM with stealth. I am gonna have so much fun in the cyclops when I finally stop wasting money on other things. Third World Reagan fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 31, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 02:18
|
|
|
Leif. posted:If I want to make a gimmick build with Rotary ACs what is my best bet? Quad RAC2 KGC with 2100 rounds of ammo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 02:35
|
|
|
Leif. posted:If I want to make a gimmick build with Rotary ACs what is my best bet? UM-R60L with an RAC5 and two ML
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 02:45
|
|
|
BattleTech posted:Quad RAC2 KGC with 2100 rounds of ammo. That will ghost heat itself to death quickly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 06:12
|
|
|
Can someone swap us back to non-clan?
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 10:42
|
|
|
Best gimmick RAC build:
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 10:53
|
|
|
Why is it always King Crabs? I swear, every time I see a horrendously under-gunned assault mech, it's a KGC.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 11:17
|
|
|
Put uac 20s on them
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 13:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 07:21 |
|
|
Figured I'd see what's up with this game after a few years away - cripes the UI is overwhelming. Still can't equip cockpit items on multiple mechs. How lame.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2018 16:05
|
|
