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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Good odds he's never returning to this thread. If I'd been owned so hard by reality I'd have to abandon my account and create a new one to ever post again. He disappeared and then for nine months people were claiming that half a dozen posters with no discernable relation to his writing style were him in disguise.
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Apr 2, 2018 06:08
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Kim Jong Il posted:Good to see we're back to arguing in favor of the two state solution is bloodthirsty and racist. You are arguing for whatever keeps the boot on the Palestinians throat as your sociopathic rear end has always done. You’ll always be a scumbag.
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Apr 2, 2018 07:47
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Sometimes people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that they're on the wrong side of history, they're not always bad people even if they argue for horrible things. If you get one of them to see they erred, even on one tiny little thing from their perspective, it's probably better to encourage them to rethink about the rest of their pre-conceptions rather than to mock them mercilessly. counterpoint: if you argue for horrible things, you are in fact a horrible person. there is no other road to a full throated defense of war crimes
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Apr 2, 2018 09:10
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I hate that I can't say how and why it actually is illegal by the IDF's own standards but shooting tire guy in the back is totally illegal.
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Apr 2, 2018 11:52
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The most charitable take on kji's argument is that the idea is quiet will somehow bring things closer to a 2 state solution but in fact quiet is basically a carte blanche for Israel to keep doing more settlement activity, pushing things further and further from a 2-state solution, and israel's offers to this point have been laughable. A 2-state solution where the second state has its borders and airspace completely controlled by another with huge chunks taken out of it is not really a 2-state solution.
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Apr 2, 2018 11:55
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Why would Israel go for a two state solution when they can slowly eradicate Palestine and be seen by the majority of westerners as wholesome, good, and not at all evil people?
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Apr 2, 2018 12:43
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Sometimes people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that they're on the wrong side of history, they're not always bad people even if they argue for horrible things. If you get one of them to see they erred, even on one tiny little thing from their perspective, it's probably better to encourage them to rethink about the rest of their pre-conceptions rather than to mock them mercilessly. What if the shame induced by merciless mocking is the best method to get them to rethink their pre-conceptions?
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Apr 2, 2018 13:00
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Orange Devil posted:What if the shame induced by merciless mocking is the best method to get them to rethink their pre-conceptions? Tends to make people double down, not change their minds.
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Apr 2, 2018 13:11
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please knock Mom! posted:Why would Israel go for a two state solution when they can slowly eradicate Palestine and be seen by the majority of westerners as wholesome, good, and not at all evil people?
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Apr 2, 2018 14:08
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One state is the only plausible way forward at this point.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:35
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OctaMurk posted:Tends to make people double down, not change their minds. No that's actual facts contrary to their position, research shows.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:47
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OctaMurk posted:Tends to make people double down, not change their minds. You need a conscience for that.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:54
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Orange Devil posted:No that's actual facts contrary to their position, research shows. lol
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Apr 2, 2018 15:25
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kidkissinger posted:One state is the only plausible way forward at this point. The only way forward is for Israel to resolve itself to treat the Palestinians with dignity and equality. As long as that isn't the case, it doesn't really matter whether you talk about "one-state" or "two-state": there will be no solution, because the Israeli government can't be trusted to deal fairly with the Palestinians. It's like asking black South Africans whether they preferred the one-state solution or the multi-state solution - in the end, they were a forced underclass with diminished legal rights under white rule, and that remained the case regardless of how South Africa rearranged the structures of legal oppression.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:22
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They can just complete the land grab and genocide instead of admitting fault, especially since they're still getting billions of dollars a year while doing the former.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:26
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One amusing fact I keep coming back to is that a lot of right wing American Christians would be totally fine with expelling the Christians from Bethlehem.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:58
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Meant to post this here The Palestinian territory's population is set to increase to over 9 million by 2050, which is closer to us than the beginning of the occupation. I am really fearful the ethnic cleansing will become more overt and brazen as the occupation struggles against the logistical obstacles of such a huge population growth in declining humanitarian conditions. How less conspicuous will Israel's actions have have to become before American opinion changes? How did American opinion change over the course of South Africa's revolution?
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Apr 3, 2018 00:19
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The sustained protest and boycott movement in the US and Europe certainly helped delegitimize the South African regime, so it could work against Israel. This is why we must repeal the 1st amendment and outlaw such behavior!
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Apr 3, 2018 00:50
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Why is one state even entertained at all. It would require Israel to grant full citizenship and voting rights to Palestinians. They won't do this as it gives Palestinians actual power over their own lives. It's a bad faith proposal they just float to avoid admitting their actual monstrous position.
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Apr 3, 2018 02:11
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Spoke Lee posted:Why is one state even entertained at all. It would require Israel to grant full citizenship and voting rights to Palestinians. They won't do this as it gives Palestinians actual power over their own lives. Nobody with any power in Israel talks about a one state solution specifically because of this. The current state of affairs is their preferred solution. By supporting the two state solution and then refusing the Palestinians the ability to function as a state through the guise of a never-ending war on terrorism, they get to have their cake and eat it too. A two state solution, but only theirs gets international legitimacy and its sovereignty recognized.
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Apr 3, 2018 02:28
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Supporting a one state solution or the right of return is an explicitly anti-peace position. The only workable choice is a laser focus on humanitarian relief, de-escalating Gaza, and withdrawing from most of the West Bank. Both the one state and return are poison pills that directly contradict those goals.Ze Pollack posted:real shame hamas forced the IDF to shoot a kid in the back as he was running away from them, huh It's a horrible situation in every possible way, to deny that they intentionally escalated the situation is insanity. Panzeh posted:The most charitable take on kji's argument is that the idea is quiet will somehow bring things closer to a 2 state solution but in fact quiet is basically a carte blanche for Israel to keep doing more settlement activity, pushing things further and further from a 2-state solution, and israel's offers to this point have been laughable. I'm not advocating for Netanyahu's "economic peace", I am arguing in favor of Labor's policies in the mid to late-90s coupled with Kadima's policies of unilateral withdrawals. Israel's offers have not been uniformly "laughable" - look up what Barak offered in 2001 or Olmert in 2009. Those were legitimate, good faith offers. quote:A 2-state solution where the second state has its borders and airspace completely controlled by another with huge chunks taken out of it is not really a 2-state solution. I haven't argued for this and don't support it. I am not a supporter of Likud or Netanyahu, and in fact have never supported Netanyahu here or anywhere. I don't think there should be any restrictions or conditions on either state.
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Apr 3, 2018 03:26
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's a horrible situation in every possible way, to deny that they intentionally escalated the situation is insanity. aside from it being clear there were very fine people on both side of the sniper scope, when the IDF shot a child, in the back, as he was fleeing from them
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Apr 3, 2018 03:59
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Kim Jong Il posted:Supporting a one state solution or the right of return is an explicitly anti-peace position. Ah yes, the ol' "if we stop the genocide halfway through, they'll retaliate" defense. Truly Gazans are the real monsters.
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Apr 3, 2018 08:03
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How much escalation is needed to justify shooting someone who is retreating and unarmed in the back?
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Apr 3, 2018 08:33
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Spoke Lee posted:Why is one state even entertained at all. It would require Israel to grant full citizenship and voting rights to Palestinians. They won't do this as it gives Palestinians actual power over their own lives. It's not like Israel makes good faith two-state proposals.
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Apr 3, 2018 10:46
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Sometimes people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that they're on the wrong side of history, they're not always bad people even if they argue for horrible things. If you get one of them to see they erred, even on one tiny little thing from their perspective, it's probably better to encourage them to rethink about the rest of their pre-conceptions rather than to mock them mercilessly. To be fair, the same person talked about how Palestinians should self-immolate in order to prove their commitment to peace, so I can't blame people too much for taking such an attitude.
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Apr 3, 2018 20:04
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Nameless_Steve posted:There are fair questions about shooting non-lethally at retreating civilian combatants. It's a huge gray area of international law. As these actions are known in the non-cartoon world, attempted murder.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:01
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Ytlaya posted:To be fair, the same person talked about how Palestinians should self-immolate in order to prove their commitment to peace, so I can't blame people too much for taking such an attitude. "I apologize, I will make sure to treat the Palestinian people with respect to their humanity in the future." "This whole brouhaha is just like cartoons and movies." "Okay next time I'll remember not to dehumanize the situation."
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Apr 3, 2018 21:07
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israel sucks.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:38
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Apr 3, 2018 21:58
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VitalSigns posted:As these actions are known in the non-cartoon world, attempted murder. When I was on the jury for an attempted murder trial, I should have argued with my fellow jurors that the defendant was only guilty of Yosemite Sam dickery rather than attempted 2nd degree murder.
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Apr 4, 2018 01:23
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https://twitter.com/pragmactivist/status/981141830464081920
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Apr 4, 2018 05:56
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I feel like explaining how the IDF are just like the Galactic Empire's Stormtroopers engaging in a little harmless fun taking potshots at fleeing civilians is either Poe's Law or ought to be a "are we the baddies" moment.
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Apr 4, 2018 15:36
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VitalSigns posted:I feel like explaining how the IDF are just like the Galactic Empire's Stormtroopers engaging in a little harmless fun taking potshots at fleeing civilians is either Poe's Law or ought to be a "are we the baddies" moment. This confuses me a little bit because all of Nameless_Steve's arguments centered around the Palestinians being unlawful combatants for whatever reason. He tried arguing that the IDF were being great guys because hey these are unlawful combatants and they are free to use lethal force. The whole "but he didn't actually die" seemed to be the cherry on top. But then it is definitively proven that the person died, and now he does the apologize thing? Doesn't walk back any of the actual arguments or do a "whoa am I the baddy?" revelation; just an ice cold apology that no one believes. Kind of like when he said that he wouldn't take the Palestinians seriously if they didn't self-immolate and rather than admitting how hosed up that is basically said "sorry you guys are so touchy". I feel like this is textbook otherization though and is pretty genuine. Humans are very adept at being able to create in and out-groups and to dehumanize people in those out-groups. Probably even easier when one is kept so distant from the actual realities of the conflict.
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Apr 5, 2018 02:43
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Nameless_Steve posted:Thank you for engaging in actual discussion like an adult. There is nothing unique about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. It's a bog standard ethnic land struggle, just like Cyprus, Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Nagorno right next door. And plenty of places farther afield. Ascribing some unique uber racism as the sole motive to one side's violence is beyond laughable, in fact it stinks of being downright disingenous. Unless of course your passionate interest in Israel is accompanied by being completely bugfuck clueless about the rest of the world. I guess it's up to you whether you want people to think you're incredibly naive and ignorant, or arguing in extreme bad faith. But it's one of the two.
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Apr 5, 2018 23:04
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things i did not expect to wake up and readquote:Geraldo Rivera regrets not backing Palestinians in Second Intifada http://mondoweiss.net/2018/04/geraldo-palestinians-intifada/ looks like fox removed the video?? lol
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Apr 6, 2018 17:52
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Had a conversation about the protests where this guy basically said all the shootings were justified because Israel has a right to protect it's borders and those killed were all Hamas members. Argued with him for a bit before he straight up said that there's nothing that would stop him from supporting Israel. 
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Apr 6, 2018 18:02
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guidoanselmi posted:things i did not expect to wake up and read not to trip up geraldo when he's finally have a decent moral impulse, but i'm pretty sure america's original sin is all that slavery and genocide we did
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Apr 6, 2018 18:18
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So I didn't see it posted earlier, but apparently hundreds of settlers occupied Al-Aqsa earlier in the week with the support of israeli special forces, who shot live rounds at palestinian teenagers who tried to stop them. They're still there now. That's a pretty big provocation right? Here's a link to the story: Hundreds of Jewish settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound
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Apr 6, 2018 22:11
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At least 300 people were shot at today's border protest in Gaza, nine have died. 
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Apr 6, 2018 22:38
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