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Hey I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but, do any of you know good books on the atrocities the USSR committed that weren't written by capitalist propagandists seeking to discredit left wing thought? I was having a conversation with some friends of mine, one of whom said that the USSR was more evil than the US during the cold war and more harmful to its client states than the US was. He also said left wing authoritarians were just as awful as right wing authoritarians, whereas I said that both are pretty awful, but right wing authoritarians (ie fascists) are worse, because they purposefully immiserate everyone. He also said left wing authoritarian governments are just as or more likely to commit ethnic cleansing and genocide as right wing governments, but I don't actually know if that's the case, I just know that fascists love ethnic cleansing and genocide. He's a classical liberal, but probably one of the most intelligent people I know, and his positions are all very well thought out as far as I can tell (which probably isn't very well tbh). He says the holodomor was genocide and that the USSR was responsible for 10s of millions of deaths, but he also says the bengal famine was genocide and that churchill was a war criminal so he's consistent with his moral standards at least. Though he did sort of demur when I said by that measure the US was also responsible for 10s of millions of deaths, since he thinks that the fact that the USSR (and china also) had a centrally planned economy makes them more morally culpable for deaths due to famine, which I think is a bit of a reach. I sort of think the US and USSR were sort of equally bad, though at least the USSR had maternal leave and universal health care, and as far as I know didn't overthrow governments regularly to exploit their resources and maintain sources of cheap labour and protect corporate interests(though I may be wrong about this, like I said it's kind of difficult to find sources on the geopolitical activities of the USSR that weren't written by people explicitly trying to make them look as awful as possible for ideological reasons). Anyway if anyone can help me be less ignorant on these matters or point me in some sort of direction so I might be able to do so, I would appreciate it very much.
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Apr 5, 2018 04:31
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wrong thread
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Apr 5, 2018 04:39
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your friend sounds sufficiently educated to understand the flaws in his reasoning, that he continues with the "classic liberal" equivocating bullshit indicates that he is one or more of stupid, actively deceitful, or ideologically blinded in any case, there isn't really a whole lot for you to gain from further interactions with buddy but for your own good the recent biography Stalin: Paradoxes of Power by Stephen Kotkin has been very well-reviewed by people across the ideological spectrum. i haven't read it yet, but my copy is waiting for when i'm finished some other books
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Apr 5, 2018 04:43
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it’s good
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Apr 5, 2018 04:44
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A Spherical Sponge posted:Hey I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but, do any of you know good books on the atrocities the USSR committed that weren't written by capitalist propagandists seeking to discredit left wing thought? I was having a conversation with some friends of mine, one of whom said that the USSR was more evil than the US during the cold war and more harmful to its client states than the US was. He also said left wing authoritarians were just as awful as right wing authoritarians, whereas I said that both are pretty awful, but right wing authoritarians (ie fascists) are worse, because they purposefully immiserate everyone. He also said left wing authoritarian governments are just as or more likely to commit ethnic cleansing and genocide as right wing governments, but I don't actually know if that's the case, I just know that fascists love ethnic cleansing and genocide. He's a classical liberal, but probably one of the most intelligent people I know, and his positions are all very well thought out as far as I can tell (which probably isn't very well tbh). He says the holodomor was genocide and that the USSR was responsible for 10s of millions of deaths, but he also says the bengal famine was genocide and that churchill was a war criminal so he's consistent with his moral standards at least. Though he did sort of demur when I said by that measure the US was also responsible for 10s of millions of deaths, since he thinks that the fact that the USSR (and china also) had a centrally planned economy makes them more morally culpable for deaths due to famine, which I think is a bit of a reach. professor grover furr will set you straight
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Apr 5, 2018 05:08
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Wheeee posted:your friend sounds sufficiently educated to understand the flaws in his reasoning, that he continues with the "classic liberal" equivocating bullshit indicates that he is one or more of stupid, actively deceitful, or ideologically blinded Yeah that's fair. It's probably ideological blindness and smart person stupidity bourne from intellectual arrogance. It's kind of weird though because he grew up in poverty on an immiserated Glaswegian council estate, and his boyfriend also grew up in poverty in post soviet rural poland, so you'd think he'd be more left wing than me, a guy who grew up in relative comfort in the suburbs of Surrey. I guess I'll just avoid talking to him about politics from now on since those sorts of discussions never change anyone's minds anyway. Thanks for the book recommendation btw. It looks like a good read.
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Apr 5, 2018 05:12
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idk what you're talking about bro. stalin did nothing wrong
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Apr 5, 2018 06:34
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Larry Parrish posted:idk what you're talking about bro. stalin did nothing wrong he died for one
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Apr 5, 2018 07:08
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Speaking of that, has anyone here heard anything about Stalinist entryism into the Green Party? Or tankies in groups like PSL or WWP drifting toward Alexander Dugin's orbit and using the (((echoes)))? My mother has been involved with the NC greens for over a decade now, and apparently there are some new comers pushing "socialism". I seriously doubt they're tankies though  . There's also an influx of anti-fa I think?
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Apr 5, 2018 07:24
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A Spherical Sponge posted:. I guess I'll just avoid talking to him about politics from now on since those sorts of discussions never change anyone's minds anyway.
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Apr 5, 2018 08:38
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morally adept posted:My mother has been involved with the NC greens for over a decade now, and apparently there are some new comers pushing "socialism". I seriously doubt they're tankies though The greens added socialism to their platform in 2016. I'm pretty sure they did this because of Bernie Sanders making them all look like a bunch of clowns.
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Apr 5, 2018 08:46
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platzapS posted:This isn’t true! People do change their minds when exposed to new ideas, it just doesn’t happen immediately. Plant seeds of doubt without being an rear end in a top hat or expecting overnight conversion. Yeah I have to agree with this. When people aren't as far gone as "communists are the same as ISIS and feminazis" or other such nonsense, it's possible to find common ground and have a conversation. You already said that your friend has a somewhat consistent moral standard, so I think that, if you want to continue having a discussion in this space, you can do things like unpacking why left-wing governments still end up in totalitarian straits, or examine why they think that central planning equates to more culpability for deaths than pursuing market-based solutions (especially when the latter is also done deliberately anyway).
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Apr 5, 2018 08:57
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if not, there would have been no point in LF megathreads. hidingfromgoro and henrykrinkle had a big impact on me like eleven years ago
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Apr 5, 2018 09:20
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Aliquid posted:if not, there would have been no point in LF megathreads. hidingfromgoro and henrykrinkle had a big impact on me like eleven years ago
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Apr 5, 2018 09:54
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platzapS posted:“Find a corporation more evil than DeBeers” thread was a huge part of turning me against capitalism as a system and not just individual bad actors. my ex-FIL was a chemist for a company on the gulf and was really worried about the Angry Mermaid Awards 2009
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Apr 5, 2018 10:01
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ah yeah those are all pretty good points. Whenever we hang out we spend hours and hours talking about philosophy and stuff which then tends to veer into politics via ethics or moral philosophy, so not talking about politics probably wouldn't be realistic anyway. Thanks for the advice 
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Apr 5, 2018 11:50
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no one has an irish literature style epiphany when it comes to politics. i went from an al franken liberal to a democratic socialist to a non-specific marxist to the immortal science of marxism-leninism over a period of a few years editor's note: "al franken liberal" refers to the period where he was just a funny snl man and author, pre-sex pestery R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 12:36
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i was kind of hoping you meant incoherent yelling at the tv
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Apr 5, 2018 12:49
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Larry Parrish posted:i was kind of hoping you meant incoherent yelling at the tv I'm sure homex does that irrespective of his politics
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Apr 5, 2018 13:25
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Dreddout posted:I'm sure homex does that irrespective of his politics Wait, do you not?
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Apr 5, 2018 13:33
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lol if you watch tv, i incoherently yell at my tweetdeck 
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Apr 5, 2018 13:37
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R. Guyovich posted:no one has an irish literature style epiphany when it comes to politics. i went from an al franken liberal to a democratic socialist to a non-specific marxist to the immortal science of marxism-leninism over a period of a few years center leftist -> chavista -> ML -> National-Bolshevist here
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Apr 5, 2018 13:51
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Speaking of that, has anyone here heard anything about Stalinist entryism into the Green Party? Or tankies in groups like PSL or WWP drifting toward Alexander Dugin's orbit and using the (((echoes)))? What the gently caress bro
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Apr 5, 2018 16:08
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Plutonis posted:center leftist -> chavista -> ML -> National-Bolshevist here how god intended
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Apr 5, 2018 16:44
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actually it's syndicalism -> syndicalism -> syndicalism -> syndicalism
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Apr 5, 2018 16:45
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I went fromgradenko_2000 posted:
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Apr 5, 2018 16:49
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the most important task facing the contemporary leftist is stopping the nato nazi capitalist smears against slobadon milosevic. here read this umfuld tweet
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Apr 5, 2018 16:52
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lf thread: okay the nazi adjacency is bad, disregard
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Apr 5, 2018 16:53
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Karl Barks posted:the most important task facing the contemporary leftist is stopping the nato nazi capitalist smears against slobadon milosevic. here read this umfuld tweet This. But without the dipshit attempt at irony.
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Apr 5, 2018 16:54
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Plutonis posted:This. But without the dipshit attempt at irony. et tu plutonis??
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Apr 5, 2018 16:59
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actually the most important task facing the modern leftist is to engage with people within and expand their sphere of influence to develop both education and direct action in their community so as to lead by positive example and give people who are failed by the current system an alternative to the fascists who are already working to recruit them lol jk it is to post sick burns on twitter and engage in masturbatory debates about the minutiae of irrelevant old bullshit
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Apr 5, 2018 17:01
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platzapS posted:“Find a corporation more evil than DeBeers” thread was a huge part of turning me against capitalism as a system and not just individual bad actors. Any other great from the good old days? I missed LF entirely.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:43
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ya socialists need to organize politically an actually act like political actors e.g. create and distribute propaganda, engage in electoral campaigns, ballot initiatives, petition drives, and generally try to win people over to their ideas. a lot of "socialists" are more interested in arguing with each other about what tendency they and poo poo and that's worthless compared to going out and moving workers and radical movements into mass militant action. like some socialists complain that trade unions are conservative and reactionary, but they only are if they're not filled with socialists so join them and turn all the members into socialists trough the strength of your ideas and political program.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:49
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mm no actually you'll find that socialism will come from voting in Democratic primaries for liberals on this list provided by Cenk from the young turks
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Apr 5, 2018 20:50
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I've been hearing something about the Parkland kids planning to take over America
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Apr 5, 2018 21:08
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platzapS posted:“Find a corporation more evil than DeBeers” thread was a huge part of turning me against capitalism as a system and not just individual bad actors. Yeah that one was loving nuts. Reading that thread and watching Century of the Self pilled me
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Apr 5, 2018 21:37
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GalacticAcid posted:mm no actually you'll find that socialism will come from voting in Democratic primaries for liberals on this list provided by Cenk from the young turks The problem with politics is that there's money in it.
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Apr 5, 2018 22:13
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https://twitter.com/interneteh/status/981725602636967937?s=21
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Apr 6, 2018 00:36
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hell yes
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Apr 6, 2018 00:39
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I fuckin love teamsters
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Apr 6, 2018 00:41
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