NAS/Storage Megathread: What is this "File Deletion" You Speak of

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > NAS/Storage Megathread: What is this "File Deletion" You Speak of

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HalloKitty: Sep 30, 2005; Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast

Richard M Nixon posted:

I'm sorry in advance for being lovely with research, but I'm having a hard time sorting through very out-of-date info.

I'm rebuilding my 2009-era home NAS after getting lovely after a very bad 2x simultaneous device failure in my raid5 array. I'm looking for alternatives to RAID but a lot of the info I'm reading is from the first half of this decade or I'll find conflicting posts on reddit or other tech sites.

My requirements are:
Linux based
Allow me to pool an arbitrary number of disks together
Simple to add new disks to the pool
Better fault tolerance than 1x disk failure
I don't care much about performance - I'll be streaming media from the disks but only to a single device at a time

From what I was reading, SnapRAID was the leading contender, but its weird scheduled parity building throws me, and my understanding is that the number of failures it can withstand is == the number of parity drives.

I'm also seeing UnRAID (same limitation of parity) and FlexRaid (apparently a lovely dev?). Are there other contenders?

Unraid with two parity disks seems like it would answer your needs...

# ? Mar 26, 2018 06:41

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# ? May 11, 2024 13:18

Nulldevice: Jun 17, 2006; Toilet Rascal

Richard M Nixon posted:

I'm sorry in advance for being lovely with research, but I'm having a hard time sorting through very out-of-date info.

I'm rebuilding my 2009-era home NAS after getting lovely after a very bad 2x simultaneous device failure in my raid5 array. I'm looking for alternatives to RAID but a lot of the info I'm reading is from the first half of this decade or I'll find conflicting posts on reddit or other tech sites.

My requirements are:
Linux based
Allow me to pool an arbitrary number of disks together
Simple to add new disks to the pool
Better fault tolerance than 1x disk failure
I don't care much about performance - I'll be streaming media from the disks but only to a single device at a time

From what I was reading, SnapRAID was the leading contender, but its weird scheduled parity building throws me, and my understanding is that the number of failures it can withstand is == the number of parity drives.

I'm also seeing UnRAID (same limitation of parity) and FlexRaid (apparently a lovely dev?). Are there other contenders?

Snapraid is pretty easy to set up and get going honestly. The configuration file is very well explained. You can sync up the parity as many times a day as you want to. When I used it I did a sync nightly. The advantages of this are if you were to delete a file by accident, as long as you didn't sync right afterward, you could undelete the file. Snapraid supports up to six parity disks (maybe more now, I haven't checked), so it could conceivably withstand a six disk failure. The only restriction is that the parity disks must be as big as, or larger than your data disks. I created a prototype server using Snapraid and MergerFS to create a disk pool with parity. To make the pool consistent I used the same directory structure on every data disk that was going into the Merger pool. Once combined all the data appears in one location. You can set Merger to only fill a disk to a certain percentage before moving to the next disk in the pool. Performance seemed pretty decent even if it was a VM (I think bare metal would do even better), and functionality was good. I created a samba share pointing to the merged directories as needed and had no trouble. I did this using Debian 8. I believe all of the packages are in apt or can be added pretty easily. As far as setup difficulty, I'd rate it as relatively easy to do if you're patient and pay attention to detail. Also it is very easy to add disks to the system. Just make sure they're smaller or equal size to the parity disks and add them to the snapraid.conf and the mergerfs mount command. Here's some output from the system:

Disk space (small VM so disks are small, but it gets the point across) You'll notice that parity is as large as the largest disk space consumed by data.:

code:

/dev/sdd1        99G   81G   14G  86% /storage0/parity
/dev/sdc1        99G   81G  9.9G  90% /storage0/disk3
/dev/sdb1        99G   52G   40G  57% /storage0/disk2
/dev/sda1        99G   80G   12G  88% /storage0/disk1
1:2:3           295G  211G   61G  78% /storage0/main

Parity disk (this is a small system, so single parity disk is all that's needed right now)

code:

/dev/sdd1 on /storage0/parity type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered)

These are the data disks.

code:

/dev/sdc1 on /storage0/disk3 type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered)
/dev/sdb1 on /storage0/disk2 type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered)
/dev/sda1 on /storage0/disk1 type ext4 (rw,relatime,data=ordered)

This is the MergerFS Pool

code:

1:2:3 on /storage0/main type fuse.mergerfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=0,group_id=0,default_permissions,allow_other)

Mount command for merger:

code:

mergerfs -o defaults,allow_other,direct_io,use_ino,category.create=eplfs,moveonenospc=true,minfreespace=10G /storage0/disk1:/st
orage0/disk2:/storage0/disk3 /storage0/main

The snapraid config (look at the uncommented portions):

code:

# Example configuration for snapraid

# Defines the file to use as parity storage
# It must NOT be in a data disk
# Format: "parity FILE [,FILE] ..."
#parity /mnt/diskp/snapraid.parity
parity /storage0/parity/snapraid.parity

# Defines the files to use as additional parity storage.
# If specified, they enable the multiple failures protection
# from two to six level of parity.
# To enable, uncomment one parity file for each level of extra
# protection required. Start from 2-parity, and follow in order.
# It must NOT be in a data disk
# Format: "X-parity FILE [,FILE] ..."
#2-parity /mnt/diskq/snapraid.2-parity
#3-parity /mnt/diskr/snapraid.3-parity
#4-parity /mnt/disks/snapraid.4-parity
#5-parity /mnt/diskt/snapraid.5-parity
#6-parity /mnt/disku/snapraid.6-parity

# Defines the files to use as content list
# You can use multiple specification to store more copies
# You must have least one copy for each parity file plus one. Some more don't hurt
# They can be in the disks used for data, parity or boot,
# but each file must be in a different disk
# Format: "content FILE"
content /var/snapraid.content
content /storage0/disk1/snapraid.content


# Defines the data disks to use
# The name and mount point association is relevant for parity, do not change it
# WARNING: Adding here your /home, /var or /tmp disks is NOT a good idea!
# SnapRAID is better suited for files that rarely changes!
# Format: "data DISK_NAME DISK_MOUNT_POINT"
data d1 /storage0/disk1/
data d2 /storage0/disk2/
data d3 /storage0/disk3/

# Excludes hidden files and directories (uncomment to enable).
#nohidden

# Defines files and directories to exclude
# Remember that all the paths are relative at the mount points
# Format: "exclude FILE"
# Format: "exclude DIR/"
# Format: "exclude /PATH/FILE"
# Format: "exclude /PATH/DIR/"
exclude *.unrecoverable
exclude /tmp/
exclude /lost+found/

# Defines the block size in kibi bytes (1024 bytes) (uncomment to enable).
# WARNING: Changing this value is for experts only!
# Default value is 256 -> 256 kibi bytes -> 262144 bytes
# Format: "blocksize SIZE_IN_KiB"
#blocksize 256

# Defines the hash size in bytes (uncomment to enable).
# WARNING: Changing this value is for experts only!
# Default value is 16 -> 128 bits
# Format: "hashsize SIZE_IN_BYTES"
#hashsize 16

# Automatically save the state when syncing after the specified amount
# of GB processed (uncomment to enable).
# This option is useful to avoid to restart from scratch long 'sync'
# commands interrupted by a machine crash.
# It also improves the recovering if a disk break during a 'sync'.
# Default value is 0, meaning disabled.
# Format: "autosave SIZE_IN_GB"
#autosave 500
autosave 50
# Defines the pooling directory where the virtual view of the disk
# array is created using the "pool" command (uncomment to enable).
# The files are not really copied here, but just linked using
# symbolic links.
# This directory must be outside the array.
# Format: "pool DIR"
#pool /pool

# Defines a custom smartctl command to obtain the SMART attributes
# for each disk. This may be required for RAID controllers and for
# some USB disk that cannot be autodetected.
# In the specified options, the "%s" string is replaced by the device name.
# Refers at the smartmontools documentation about the possible options:
# RAID -> [url]https://www.smartmontools.org/wiki/Supported_RAID-Controllers[/url]
# USB -> [url]https://www.smartmontools.org/wiki/Supported_USB-Devices[/url]
#smartctl d1 -d sat %s
#smartctl d2 -d usbjmicron %s
#smartctl parity -d areca,1/1 /dev/sg0
#smartctl 2-parity -d areca,2/1 /dev/sg0

Really all of this is done in two places to get it up and running. Snapraid.conf and your mergerfs mount command. I keep the mergerfs mount in rc.local. Just decide what sized disks you want to max out at and buy as many of those as you want as parity and some as data. You can also use smaller disks as well. Once you dump all of your data on the system you'll need to do the first sync which will take a while.

I found this build on the internet somewhere in a couple of places and decided to try it out. It's pretty solid.

# ? Mar 26, 2018 12:26

Odette: Mar 19, 2011

Swapped the KVM USB cable for a PS/2 one and all is well.

Just need a couple of H200 cards, then I can start the migration.

# ? Mar 26, 2018 22:56

Devian666: Aug 20, 2008; Take some advice Chris.; Fun Shoe

I've completely changed my approach to NAS since I first looked at this thread. All I'm running is a QNAP 231P with 2 x 2TB WD reds. I just don't store much data at home these days. I'm also blown away by how much I can do with an off the shelf NAS box without putting in too much effort.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:56

IOwnCalculus: Apr 2, 2003

IOwnCalculus posted:

I also forgot to mention that, like the Ironwolf drives, these do not have the middle set of drive holes, at least on the bottom. Didn't check the sides but I can't imagine they'd be there but not underneath. They're also on the thick side, they only want to fit in the top row of drive slots on my Norco case.

I forgot to update. Turns out these drives do have the side middle holes, which is great for the Supermicro chassis I have at work that uses the side holes (and is set up for all six holes anyway).

RMA process was good. RMA requested and issued on Tuesday the 20th, shipped the drives back with the prepaid Priority label and they were delivered to GHD on Friday the 23rd. I pinged them on Monday the 26th for an update, they replied late that evening to inform me they'd been shipped but didn't give me a tracking number. Turns out they shipped them back Priority with signature required so they attempted delivery yesterday, but I was able to pick up from the post office today.

Just now plugged them in and neither are DOA. Already started nwipe on them to stress test. SMART data:

code:

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     HGST HUH728080ALE604
Serial Number:    PISSTAPE
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000cca PISSTAPE
Add. Product Id:  DELL(tm)
Firmware Version: A4DEGP04
User Capacity:    8,001,563,222,016 bytes [8.00 TB]
Sector Sizes:     512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Form Factor:      3.5 inches
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is:   ACS-2, ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 3.0 Gb/s)
Local Time is:    Thu Mar 29 18:27:42 2018 MST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000b   100   100   016    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  2 Throughput_Performance  0x0004   134   134   000    Old_age   Offline      -       105
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0007   153   153   024    Pre-fail  Always       -       434 (Average 426)
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       26
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   005    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  8 Seek_Time_Performance   0x0004   128   128   000    Old_age   Offline      -       18
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   098   098   000    Old_age   Always       -       18499
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       26
 22 Unknown_Attribute       0x0023   100   100   025    Pre-fail  Always       -       100
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       795
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       795
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       30 (Min/Max 21/38)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0022   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0008   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x000a   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       1
223 Load_Retry_Count        0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
241 Total_LBAs_Written      0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       154725728471
242 Total_LBAs_Read         0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       294587272271

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     HGST HUH728080ALE604
Serial Number:    PISSTAPE
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000cca PISSTAPE
Add. Product Id:  DELL(tm)
Firmware Version: A4DEGP04
User Capacity:    8,001,563,222,016 bytes [8.00 TB]
Sector Sizes:     512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Form Factor:      3.5 inches
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is:   ACS-2, ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 3.0 Gb/s)
Local Time is:    Thu Mar 29 18:27:45 2018 MST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000b   100   100   016    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  2 Throughput_Performance  0x0004   133   133   000    Old_age   Offline      -       108
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0007   154   154   024    Pre-fail  Always       -       419 (Average 435)
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       34
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   005    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  8 Seek_Time_Performance   0x0004   128   128   000    Old_age   Offline      -       18
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   098   098   000    Old_age   Always       -       17217
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       34
 22 Unknown_Attribute       0x0023   100   100   025    Pre-fail  Always       -       100
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       750
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       750
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   206   206   000    Old_age   Always       -       29 (Min/Max 21/42)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0022   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0008   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x000a   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
223 Load_Retry_Count        0x000a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
241 Total_LBAs_Written      0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       15887300623
242 Total_LBAs_Read         0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       68433

All six drives (the two original good, two original bad, and two replacement) have June 2015 manufacture dates. Again no SMART data wiped here at 18K hours on each.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 02:39

bobfather: Sep 20, 2001; I will analyze your nervous system for beer money

Is there a preferred method nowadays to stress-test check a new disk for reliability on Windows?

I found this write up on the [H]ardforums, post number 21 that seems fine, if a couple years old.

More or less, I bought a Seagate Pro (LOL number 1) 8tb spinner off of Amazon Warehouse (LOL number 2) for a great price and need to be sure it isn�t a dud before I copy data to it.

It will store only video surveillance footage, but it replaces a 2TB Seagate Barracuda with 29000 power on hours that is reporting to SMART "everything is fine" but causes Blue Iris to crash repeatedly if used as a storage drive (LOL number 3).

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:00

IOwnCalculus: Apr 2, 2003

I just use a boot disk with DBAN if I don't have a Linux system with nwipe installed handy.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:12

bobfather: Sep 20, 2001; I will analyze your nervous system for beer money

IOwnCalculus posted:

I just use a boot disk with DBAN if I don't have a Linux system with nwipe installed handy.

Will nwipe / dban error out if it can�t complete the wipe, or are you checking SMART info before and after the wipes?

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:50

IOwnCalculus: Apr 2, 2003

If it's failing on write it will probably pop an error in the kernel log. It does attempt to verify that the last pass of zeros was written correctly as well. SMART data afterwards will also show if it has to reallocate any sectors.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:59

IOwnCalculus: Apr 2, 2003

Looks like these other two drives are good, or at least good enough to start swapping in.

They're back on sale for $170 at Newegg.

# ? Mar 31, 2018 18:45

IOwnCalculus: Apr 2, 2003

G-Prime posted:

I'm assuming you're on Linux, not FreeBSD, but additional tuning parameters you could use are:

vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable=1
vfs.zfs.resliver_delay=0
vfs.zfs.resilver_min_time=5000
vfs.zfs.scrub_delay=0
vfs.zfs.top_maxinflight=512

At least on FreeBSD, those are phenomenal, and I'd assume that the Linux implementation has similar tunables. They're pretty aggressive, and will kill your ability to use the NAS reasonably during a resilver, unless you've got some serious caching on the remote device, but the performance boost they give to resilvers and scrubs is huge. My 8x8TB array at ~40% capacity in use was taking over 36 hours to do a scrub, tuned that stuff and it's down to 12 hours. I had previously used these when I grew the array from 8x4TB, and that made it ~20 hours a drive instead of ~50. Again, though, this is super aggressive. I couldn't play 1080p videos in realtime with these set, during a resilver or scrub, until I increased the cache on the remote box and let it buffer a reasonable amount so it could get bursts to make it through the whole file.

Triple posting because I rebooted the server between resilvers so everything reset. To max out the drives you need to do these plus the async write min active setting, not just one or the other.

# ? Apr 3, 2018 00:42

Paul MaudDib: May 3, 2006; TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

Gigabyte has a C3958-based NAS board out as well.

Oddly, the C3958 is actually slower than the C3955 because it's clocked 20% lower. Weird, not sure what the differentiator between them is then. More NIC channels unlocked or something?

# ? Apr 3, 2018 20:25

Devian666: Aug 20, 2008; Take some advice Chris.; Fun Shoe

The main difference is that it's available as an embedded option (I assume they mean system on a chip), and it has intel assist which is some sort of encryption and compression hardware acceleration. Everything else other than clock speed is the same. You may get a performance boost if you have encrypted drives.

On a separate issue that's a hell of a lot of atom processors. My VM server has 8 atom cpus, I'm not sure what I'd do with 16 in a NAS.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 03:52

Paul MaudDib: May 3, 2006; TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

Devian666 posted:

The main difference is that it's available as an embedded option (I assume they mean system on a chip), and it has intel assist which is some sort of encryption and compression hardware acceleration. Everything else other than clock speed is the same. You may get a performance boost if you have encrypted drives.

On a separate issue that's a hell of a lot of atom processors. My VM server has 8 atom cpus, I'm not sure what I'd do with 16 in a NAS.

Both of these are embedded chips, and I assume both of them have AES-NI or whatever.

Denverton is pretty loving cool. Not only does it have a shitload of lanes available for SATA channels and ethernet, it also has AVX and a bunch of other stuff you wouldn't think would be in an Atom.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Apr 4, 2018

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:07

sharkytm: Oct 9, 2003; Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo; Fallen Rib

Devian666 posted:

On a separate issue that's a hell of a lot of atom processors. My VM server has 8 atom cpus, I'm not sure what I'd do with 16 in a NAS.

Twice as much, duh. :v:

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:07

Devian666: Aug 20, 2008; Take some advice Chris.; Fun Shoe

Paul MaudDib posted:

Both of these are embedded chips, and I assume both of them have AES-NI or whatever.

Denverton is pretty loving cool. Not only does it have a shitload of lanes available for SATA channels and ethernet, it also has AVX and a bunch of other stuff you wouldn't think would be in an Atom.

What I posted are the differences listed on ark. I'm assuming SoC allows for some other variations for manufacturers.

12 x sata channels is pretty serious and all in a cpu package rated at 33W. Serious business.

sharkytm posted:

Twice as much, duh.

What would you do with unlimited power?

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:18

Paul MaudDib: May 3, 2006; TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

Devian666 posted:

What I posted are the differences listed on ark. I'm assuming SoC allows for some other variations for manufacturers.

12 x sata channels is pretty serious and all in a cpu package rated at 33W. Serious business.

What would you do with unlimited power?

To be clear, that's 12x SATA channels plus quad 10 GbE ethernet, at least on the flagship SuperMicro board. And AVX, so it is OK at encoding video and other poo poo. In a linux compile, 16 Denvertons are equivalent to about 6 Kaby i5 cores, so pretty decent even without AVX.

Luxury PLEX/Emby server is the obvious application. Or business poo poo where you want to run a bunch of services off a single box.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:26

Devian666: Aug 20, 2008; Take some advice Chris.; Fun Shoe

It's definitely comparable to what's inside high end off the shelf solutions.

I'd expect it to be able to transcode at least 7 or 8 streams. Or fill it up with VMs or docker containers. It'd still have room to spare as a file server with all that going on.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:38

Paul MaudDib: May 3, 2006; TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

It smacks the poo poo out of high-end off-the-shelf solutions unless they're something absurd like X99/X299 platforms, which you will pay dearly for in an off-the-shelf product. If you are willing to splash out $800 for a mobo+CPU, it's arguably a better buy than anything you can do on the LGA1151 platform, and it's way more power efficient than an X99/X299 platform.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 04:48

Twerk from Home: Jan 17, 2009; This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.

Paul MaudDib posted:

It smacks the poo poo out of high-end off-the-shelf solutions unless they're something absurd like X99/X299 platforms, which you will pay dearly for in an off-the-shelf product. If you are willing to splash out $800 for a mobo+CPU, it's arguably a better buy than anything you can do on the LGA1151 platform, and it's way more power efficient than an X99/X299 platform.

I hear this, but I can't help but feel that a $180 6-core i5, reasonable motherboard, and simple HBA in IT mode is still far better bang for the buck. Just like the Xeon-D platforms I think that for home enthusiast usage, Denverton is really cool, but is a splurge for someone who just wants an excuse to tinker with less-mainstream products.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 06:12

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Paul MaudDib posted:

Both of these are embedded chips, and I assume both of them have AES-NI or whatever.

Denverton is pretty loving cool. Not only does it have a shitload of lanes available for SATA channels and ethernet, it also has AVX and a bunch of other stuff you wouldn't think would be in an Atom.

The difference lies in the fact that the C3958 provides QuickAssist which, in the spec that is used for that processor (but can range up to 100Gbps for add-in cards), can deliver up to 20Gbps SHA-1/-2 hashing, upwards of 20Gbps accelerated encryption (outside of what AES-NI can do, which only accelerates a few AES ciphers), and even compression (though I don't know any numbers). Both Linux and FreeBSD have drivers for it, and Illumos (I believe) is getting a driver for it.
At least two of these are rather useful for OpenZFS, since it means you can use other encryptions through native or GELI encryption, and you can switch from flecher2 or flecher4 checksums to SHA-256 checksumming without suffering preformance losses. Unfortunately, I think the compression algorithm supported is only gzip (at least, the only known use of QAT compression acceleration I know of is work done with nginx, which uses gzip - although some of Intels documentation also hints at zlib support).

# ? Apr 4, 2018 15:36

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Paul MaudDib posted:

Gigabyte has a C3958-based NAS board out as well.

Oddly, the C3958 is actually slower than the C3955 because it's clocked 20% lower. Weird, not sure what the differentiator between them is then. More NIC channels unlocked or something?

I've never messed with SFF-8087 stuff before - can I just buy the cheapest SFF-8087 port to SATA hydra adapter off Amazon and expect it to work and perform well or is there some controller in there I'd have to worry about being flaky garbage?

# ? Apr 4, 2018 15:55

Thermopyle: Jul 1, 2003; ...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. �Bertrand Russell

Twerk from Home posted:

I hear this, but I can't help but feel that a $180 6-core i5, reasonable motherboard, and simple HBA in IT mode is still far better bang for the buck. Just like the Xeon-D platforms I think that for home enthusiast usage, Denverton is really cool, but is a splurge for someone who just wants an excuse to tinker with less-mainstream products.

I agree with this. The power savings are miniscule if you're not running a data center.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 16:46

unknown: Nov 16, 2002; Ain't got no stinking title yet!

Munkeymon posted:

I've never messed with SFF-8087 stuff before - can I just buy the cheapest SFF-8087 port to SATA hydra adapter off Amazon and expect it to work and perform well or is there some controller in there I'd have to worry about being flaky garbage?

Basically yes. It's just a 4-in-1 cable/connector - it was mainly used for enterprise where drives plugged into a hard backplane board, so this way there was less cabling in the machine.

# ? Apr 4, 2018 19:39

Methylethylaldehyde: Oct 23, 2004; BAKA BAKA

unknown posted:

Basically yes. It's just a 4-in-1 cable/connector - it was mainly used for enterprise where drives plugged into a hard backplane board, so this way there was less cabling in the machine.

Do keep in mind, there are breakout and reverse breakout versions of the SAS->SATA cable hydra, one of which works great, the other....doesn't.

# ? Apr 5, 2018 00:48

Paul MaudDib: May 3, 2006; TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

D. Ebdrup posted:

The difference lies in the fact that the C3958 provides QuickAssist which, in the spec that is used for that processor (but can range up to 100Gbps for add-in cards), can deliver up to 20Gbps SHA-1/-2 hashing, upwards of 20Gbps accelerated encryption (outside of what AES-NI can do, which only accelerates a few AES ciphers), and even compression (though I don't know any numbers). Both Linux and FreeBSD have drivers for it, and Illumos (I believe) is getting a driver for it.
At least two of these are rather useful for OpenZFS, since it means you can use other encryptions through native or GELI encryption, and you can switch from flecher2 or flecher4 checksums to SHA-256 checksumming without suffering preformance losses. Unfortunately, I think the compression algorithm supported is only gzip (at least, the only known use of QAT compression acceleration I know of is work done with nginx, which uses gzip - although some of Intels documentation also hints at zlib support).

Oh, so the distinction is the C3958 has a SIP core for other bullshit? I get it, thanks for explaining :downs:

Disappointing there's no option for "C3955 speeds, but also with a SIP core" though, even if it blew up the TDP by another 5 watts or whatever.

Twerk from Home posted:

I hear this, but I can't help but feel that a $180 6-core i5, reasonable motherboard, and simple HBA in IT mode is still far better bang for the buck. Just like the Xeon-D platforms I think that for home enthusiast usage, Denverton is really cool, but is a splurge for someone who just wants an excuse to tinker with less-mainstream products.

Yeah absolutely, even a 7100 is more powerful than most NAS servers on the market (most people live with Atoms or ARM), and that's plenty to meet most people's needs. I think the 7100 is actually the inflection point here, since at the i5 you lose the ECC support, which I consider valuable in this niche.

Still though, my point is that if you need more power than an i3, the C3958 is not actually a bad deal. It's at least 3x as fast, at 2.5x the price for a mobo+CPU. That's the same price-to-performance, if not an improvement, which is fantastic given the normal price escalation of ECC server products. The i5 is a little better price-to-performance when considering only compute performance, but you give up ECC.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Apr 5, 2018

# ? Apr 5, 2018 01:52

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Methylethylaldehyde posted:

Do keep in mind, there are breakout and reverse breakout versions of the SAS->SATA cable hydra, one of which works great, the other....doesn't.

What's a reverse breakout? Plugging an SF-8087 storage device into four host SATA ports?

# ? Apr 5, 2018 13:53

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

So I ended up building another NAS, and went back to Corral. Its so much nicer, even with the bugs.

# ? Apr 6, 2018 13:17

G-Prime: Apr 30, 2003; Baby, when it's love,
if it's not rough it isn't fun.

Corral over 11? Interesting choice. I'll admit, I really miss the Corral UI, even the new one that they still don't have production ready for 11 doesn't come close to it. But still, what's to gain from it beyond that? You can do Docker in a VM, just without the fancy UI (and without having to blow away your containers and manually rebuild all the settings for them every time you want to upgrade). It's less performant (in my experience). The CLI is pretty drat nice, but it got me into some serious predicaments over time because certain things didn't work as advertised or at all.

# ? Apr 6, 2018 13:36

Generic Monk: Oct 31, 2011

e: ignore this fixed by wiping everything to do with transmission

Generic Monk fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Apr 6, 2018

# ? Apr 6, 2018 14:31

BaronVonVaderham: Jul 31, 2011; All hail the queen!

Devian666 posted:

I've completely changed my approach to NAS since I first looked at this thread. All I'm running is a QNAP 231P with 2 x 2TB WD reds. I just don't store much data at home these days. I'm also blown away by how much I can do with an off the shelf NAS box without putting in too much effort.

I was originally just running Plex on my desktop, which is overbuilt to the point that we streamed 4k to like 3 or 4 devices and it didn't even notice. But I didn't want to have to run the thing 24/7, and if I had to do some weird poo poo for work we'd lose access. QNAP seemed like the best bang for your buck, even factoring in a memory upgrade. I also have a bit of space limitation, I needed something small that could fit in a little corner of my desk near the router without turning the place into a sauna; it's already hot enough in here.

It's definitely not the best permanent solution, it really struggles if I don't front-load the transcoding as I add media (though this had the positive side effect of forcing me to be more consistent in my storage). I made sure I didn't cheap out on the drives and got a pair of 6TB Seagate IronWolf; I lost my entire media collection once due to a head crash. Otherwise, I'm really impressed with this little box.

But this thread has given me a lot to think about. I think for now the QNAP meets my needs, but especially after getting a 4k tv, I see a need for more power in my future (and space as the files just keep getting larger). Maybe after I move and have a house where I'll have more space.

# ? Apr 6, 2018 15:52

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

G-Prime posted:

Corral over 11? Interesting choice. I'll admit, I really miss the Corral UI, even the new one that they still don't have production ready for 11 doesn't come close to it. But still, what's to gain from it beyond that? You can do Docker in a VM, just without the fancy UI (and without having to blow away your containers and manually rebuild all the settings for them every time you want to upgrade). It's less performant (in my experience). The CLI is pretty drat nice, but it got me into some serious predicaments over time because certain things didn't work as advertised or at all.

BHyve with direct GUI access to the VMs, Docker support is much better, GUI is much more intuitive.

Yeah, its got a lot of flaws, but I feel more at home with it.

# ? Apr 6, 2018 16:03

ILikeVoltron: May 17, 2003; I <3 spyderbyte!

CommieGIR posted:

BHyve with direct GUI access to the VMs, Docker support is much better, GUI is much more intuitive.

Yeah, its got a lot of flaws, but I feel more at home with it.

I went back and forth over this until I ultimately gave up and just did a straight linux install. 99% of what I do in my NAS is now Container based. Who's going to run containers better than a native linux kernel? The only other thing I really want from the host is ZFS support, which ZoL does pretty well. I'd still consider FreeNAS if they had kept on Corral though.

# ? Apr 7, 2018 22:00

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

ILikeVoltron posted:

I went back and forth over this until I ultimately gave up and just did a straight linux install. 99% of what I do in my NAS is now Container based. Who's going to run containers better than a native linux kernel? The only other thing I really want from the host is ZFS support, which ZoL does pretty well. I'd still consider FreeNAS if they had kept on Corral though.

That was kind of what I wanted to do, but the UI makes it easier to manage and my wife uses it sometimes.

But yeah, I've had no issues with Corral now, other than I lost the UG feature when I switched to an older machine for my NAS, so I can only run Linux VMs, no Windows VMs.

# ? Apr 7, 2018 23:15

BusinessWallet: Sep 13, 2005; Today has been the most perfect day I have ever seen

Is there a ~4 bay Synology or QNAP box that I can throw 4 drives in, set up a RAID and stream 4K movies and TV to the devices on my network? Everything is hardwired, two Apple TV 4Ks, a couple smart TVs. I need something that is wife proof, very reliable and doesn't require a lot of maintenance. Plug and play is ideal. I just want to make sure it's powerful enough to feed content to my devices. Not really sure on budget but I generally tend to go overboard with stuff.

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:22

Thanks Ants: May 21, 2004; #essereFerrari

DS418play will do that

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:26

Matt Zerella: Oct 7, 2002; Norris'es are back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (fox Howl)

BusinessWallet posted:

Is there a ~4 bay Synology or QNAP box that I can throw 4 drives in, set up a RAID and stream 4K movies and TV to the devices on my network? Everything is hardwired, two Apple TV 4Ks, a couple smart TVs. I need something that is wife proof, very reliable and doesn't require a lot of maintenance. Plug and play is ideal. I just want to make sure it's powerful enough to feed content to my devices. Not really sure on budget but I generally tend to go overboard with stuff.

I mean, wifeproof should have anything to do with your NAS? I have no idea how plex handles 4K but my wife uses it with zero problems. As for hardware, if there's any transcoding involved, any i5 system from the last 5 years is going to trounce a small qnap or synology unit (my guess is the apple TVs will be fine but your smart TVs will definitely need transcoding). Do you have any old hardware laying around?

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:29

BusinessWallet: Sep 13, 2005; Today has been the most perfect day I have ever seen

Matt Zerella posted:

I mean, wifeproof should have anything to do with your NAS? I have no idea how plex handles 4K but my wife uses it with zero problems. As for hardware, if there's any transcoding involved, any i5 system from the last 5 years is going to trounce a small qnap or synology unit (my guess is the apple TVs will be fine but your smart TVs will definitely need transcoding). Do you have any old hardware laying around?

Yeah, I have a pretty decent Dell SFF desktop sitting around actually. It has a Skylake i7 in it, 8GB of RAM and an SSD, but no room for more hard drives.

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:32

Matt Zerella: Oct 7, 2002; Norris'es are back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (fox Howl)

BusinessWallet posted:

Yeah, I have a pretty decent Dell SFF desktop sitting around actually. It has a Skylake i7 in it, 8GB of RAM and an SSD, but no room for more hard drives.

Harvest the CPU, ram and SSD and build around that?

A fractal case, new motherboard with 6 SATA connectors, power supply, and hard drives. Slap unraid on it or freenas if you don't want to pay for the OS and get configuring. I recommend unraid because you can mix and match hard drive sizes and use that SSD as a cache drive.

I mean, I get the appeal of synology/qnap units but if you have a basement or area to hide the machine away in, you're going to have a lot more flexibility with a build. And that i7 will be a monster for transcoding.

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:36

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# ? May 11, 2024 13:18

BusinessWallet: Sep 13, 2005; Today has been the most perfect day I have ever seen

Matt Zerella posted:

Harvest the CPU, ram and SSD and build around that?

A fractal case, new motherboard with 6 SATA connectors, power supply, and hard drives. Slap unraid on it or freenas if you don't want to pay for the OS and get configuring. I recommend unraid because you can mix and match hard drive sizes and use that SSD as a cache drive.

I mean, I get the appeal of synology/qnap units but if you have a basement or area to hide the machine away in, you're going to have a lot more flexibility with a build. And that i7 will be a monster for transcoding.

I hear you, but I really want something I won't have to mess with at all. Everything in my house is HomeKit because it just works, I don't have to mess with it. I know it's not as powerful or as open, but I prefer the convenience. With a unraid or freenas build, is that realistic?

# ? Apr 8, 2018 20:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > NAS/Storage Megathread: What is this "File Deletion" You Speak of

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